TAD or GINA, who designed that flower first?

Jive

Jive

Professional Racker
Silver Member
I don't intend to make this controversial and it's a plain and simple question sparked but some cues i saw on AZ lately.

I have noticed that TAD uses alot of the "flower" inlay ontop of points on his cues and it has sort of become synonymous with his cues and his designs. However i have also noticed that GINAs have them flowers as well and even on his very early cues.

I'm curious, who started this design? I have seen other cue makers using this design but with my limited knowledge i have assumed that either TAD or GINA were the originators. Can anyone shed a light? Or has that design come from an even earlier cuemaker?

Here are 2 pictures for comparison.

Picture 1: TAD Cue - i wish i could give credit to whoever took this picture of who it belongs to..i always download pictures from AZ but i dont know who they belong to. If the owner of this cue or picture take offense in me posting this picture, please contact me and i'll remove it.
tad_special_25000_F02.jpg



Picture 2: GINA Cue - I got this picture from AZer "kvinbrwr" who is now selling an excellent 1990 Gina cue here. Those keen on seeing more pictures of this cue or his sales thread please click here.
master3.jpg
 
I certainly don't have the definitive answer here. Both started making cues in the early 60's, Ernie in '61 and TAD in '63 (according to the BB). And since they were both in Southern California I could see where one might pick up a cool design element from the other pretty quickly after first being introduced.

But I'm going to say it would be Ernie only because I know for a fact he was doing 3 leaf clover tipped points on some of his earliest designs pre-'65ish but I've not seen these on a TAD that old. Doesn't mean he didn't, just that I haven't seen a TAD that incorporated this element that goes back quite that far.
 
Last edited:
I doubt either of them actually started the practice as cue makers started doing it to hide the fact that their points weren't all ending in the same place and both Tad and Gina never had that problem as they don't splice their points. For sure Paradise made some cues with at least a circle over the tips of the points and that might predate Tad and Gina (but not necessarily).

In any "controversy" between these two particular makers as to whom copied whom, Tad always says he copied Ernie, whether its true or not, who knows. Mr Kohara has always been very gracious when it comes to giving credit to others.

Thanks

Kevin
 
Last edited:
RRfireblade said:
Definately predates both of them unless that's not whats being asked.
Click to expand...

Like Mitchell says, Ernie for sure did it in 63 or 64, AZ member junksecret just sold one here at AZ. Can you think of a clover-tipped pointed cue that predates that?

Thanks

Kevin

Here's junksecret's Gina from 1969

daviscue4.jpg
 
Last edited:
an interpretation of a clover leaf perhaps, maybe an arrangement of circles using available tooling, perhaps a copy of some architecture in old buildings or monuments. I don't think either of them designed it. It looks pretty on a cue, especially one created by one of those masters.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
I certainly don't have the definitive answer here. Both started making cues in the early 60's, Ernie in '61 and TAD in '63 (according to the BB). And since they were both in Southern California I could see where one might pick up a cool design element from the other pretty quickly after first being introduced.

But I'm going to say it would be Ernie only because I know for a fact he was doing 3 leaf clover points on some of his earliest designs pre-'65ish but I've not seen these on a TAD that old. Doesn't mean he didn't, just that I haven't seen a TAD that incorporated this element that goes back quite that far.
Click to expand...

Mitchell

Easily 1965 for Ernie. His first "catalog" contained 5 cue designs with clovers. The Tad shown above with the floating points is 1990s at the earliest. Who can show an earlier clover than 1965 ? Maybe one of the East Coast guys.

Its funny that this should come up, Searing and I were just on an extended cue ramble and he said he wanted to inlay some stuff on top of his points on a future cue, but he wanted to leave a little gap so the tips could be seen (Searing being a guy, like Barry, who DOES splice his points and has nothing to hide).

Thanks

Kevin

burlr12.jpg
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all input thus far guys, it's been nothing but entertaining and importantly educational! Would really love to get to the bottom of the clover on points origin though..

Special thanks to Kevin, I'm glad you chimed in cos when it comes to Gina you're the definite go to guy.
 
kvinbrwr said:
Like Mitchell says, Ernie for sure did it in 63 or 64, AZ member junksecret just sold one here at AZ. Can you think of a clover-tipped pointed cue that predates that?

Thanks

Kevin

Here's junksecret's Gina from 1969
Click to expand...

That's for sure. As you know my Domino is a very early cue of Ernie's. I don't remember the precise year I had him make it for me but he puts it around '63. And the 11C (before it was called that, LOL) in your photo of his showcase, two to the left of the Silver Gina, was available then. It was the cue I really lusted after at the time but it was more than a snot nosed kid like me could afford.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
That's for sure. As you know my Domino is a very early cue of Ernie's. I don't remember the precise year I had him make it for me but he puts it around '63. And the 11C (before it was called that, LOL) in your photo of his showcase, two to the left of the Silver Gina, was available then. It was the cue I really lusted after at the time but it was more than a snot nosed kid like me could afford.
Click to expand...

Its so cool that you still have that cue. Do you remember the pricing?

Kevin
 
I know that Rambow occasionally covered the Titlist points he worked with with dots, but I'm still looking for anyone with a (lets say) pre-1965 clover inlay? One of the posters said the inlay definitely predated Ernie or Tad, I'm wondering by whom?

Paradise? (not that I can find)

Thanks

Kevin
 
Last edited:
Jive

Here's a pair of 90s TADs that mimic the Gina 11C move of 8 non-veneered points with clovers on the high and dots on the low ones. One of the cues also has feather inlays in the butt (a beautiful move by Tad) that Ernie had in the 1960s Ed Kelley box cue (I think) and also is shown in his first catalog (the cue to just the left of the Silver Gina in the center).

Here's a story Tad and Ernie were laughing about like 5 years ago when Lucky was in town and brought them together. In the 80s, Ernie is sitting around some cue show when a guy looking at one of cues gets all in his face claiming he just saw the cue that Ernie copied his cue from. Ernie says in his matter of fact way, "I don't know who you are talking about, but if you saw a cue like this, he copied me". Now the guy is pissed, he drags Ernie over to the other maker's display and its Tad. The guy yells at Tad, "this guy says you copied him!!!!!". Tad smiles and sez, "I did":

taddy1.jpg


tadwa1.jpg


Thanks

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
Here's a story Tad and Ernie were laughing about like 5 years ago when Lucky was in town and brought them together. In the 80s, Ernie is sitting around some cue show when a guy looking at one of cues gets all in his face claiming he just saw the cue that Ernie copied his cue from. Ernie says in his matter of fact way, "I don't know who you are talking about, but if you saw a cue like this, he copied me". Now the guy is pissed, he drags Ernie over to the other maker's display and its Tad. The guy yells at Tad, "this guy says you copied him!!!!!". Tad smiles and sez, "I did":

Kevin
Click to expand...

Priceless. I wish I could have witnessed this.

Another great story Kevin. :)
 
Clovers

kvinbrwr said:
I know that Rambow occasionally covered the Titlist points he worked with with dots, but I'm still looking for anyone with a (lets say) pre-1965 clover inlay? One of the posters said the inlay definitely predated Ernie or Tad, I'm wondering by whom?

Paradise? (not that I can find)

Thanks

Kevin
Click to expand...

I have a 64/65 Gina 8 Pt with clovers on the 4 long points, Ernie can't remember which year he made it. I bought a Gina from you on ebay last Oct. Kevin, 17C, and sent you a picture of my 4 Gina's with the 64/65 Gina in that photo. That's as far back as I can go in regard to the clovers.
Dale
 
Jdale said:
I have a 64/65 Gina 8 Pt with clovers on the 4 long points, Ernie can't remember which year he made it. I bought a Gina from you on ebay last Oct. Kevin, 17C, and sent you a picture of my 4 Gina's with the 64/65 Gina in that photo. That's as far back as I can go in regard to the clovers.
Dale
Click to expand...

Dale

Thanks for the business. Last October is a long time between Ginas. The time is now (I've got 2 all ready to go).

Come on, somebody has to have some clovers in a pre-1965 non-Gina somewhere. Please don't tell me Ernie invented clovers too.

Kevin
 
No one else?

So far it's pretty safe to conclude that between GINA and TAD, GINA was first to use the clovers on points and for a quite a while before someone else started using. Anyone wants to refute this point?

So right now what the thread would like to establish is the origin of the Clover on Points. Did GINA invented the use of it?

Kevin, would it be impolite to get Ernie's input on this? I'd understand if he doesn't want to get involved in this thread though.
 
matcase said:
an interpretation of a clover leaf perhaps, maybe an arrangement of circles using available tooling, perhaps a copy of some architecture in old buildings or monuments. I don't think either of them designed it. It looks pretty on a cue, especially one created by one of those masters.
Click to expand...

Hi Mat,

Not sure how i missed your post. But i agree with you that no one actually invented the Clover Design. Since it's design origin is pretty much from mother nature so there's no way anyone can call dips to that.

However i'm just curious who adopted the Clover Design onto Cues. To be specific, i mean adding clover inlays onto points.
 
Jive said:
Hi Mat,

Not sure how i missed your post. But i agree with you that no one actually invented the Clover Design. Since it's design origin is pretty much from mother nature so there's no way anyone can call dips to that.

However i'm just curious who adopted the Clover Design onto Cues. To be specific, i mean adding clover inlays onto points.
Click to expand...

"Invented" is a poor choice of word in this case. There was someone who was the original creator the clover design.
 
Last edited:
Anymore input? Any TAD hardcores here could verify they have an earlier clover point cue?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top