Taiwan, the new Philipines.

[Celtic]

Back in the late 80's and early 90's the Philipines held this kind of mystisicm due to all these totally unknown players that play pro level pool and just stick around in that locality. We all heard stories about gys that could go with any of the top American players for the cash that we had never even heard of. Now the Philipines is not quite so much a mystery. We know alot of the players from the place, we of course have the heavy hitters like Efren and Busta, we have Alcano, Corteza, Gabica, Kiamco, Lining. The place is not quite the mystery it once was and those unknown players now have names that set off alarms in the head of a pool fan.

Then there is Taiwan though, I would say it has largely taken the place of the Philipines as the new well kept secret of pool stardom. We had the Efren/busta'esque appearance of Fong pang Chao and Chin Shun Yang, we saw a glimmer of the comming storm in the Junior worlds by total domination of the two Taiwanese players over the field, and all of the sudden with the worlds in Taiwan we see huge numbers of Taiwan players who play pro level coming out of the qualifiers that most of us are probably going "who?". Seems Taiwan was the next best kept secret of the pool world and if the past is any sort of lesson then we should be wary of some serious inroads of a large number of those Taiwanese players onto the international stage. The San Miguel will likely spare the USA the kicking they took at the hands of Efren and Busta over a few years, it will stop alot of the unknowns from doing a Alcano and coming over to lay waste to a regional tour for a while.

Nevertheless it seems like in its hour of weakness yet another moster of the pool world is going to make it that much harder for America (and I include Canada in this mix) to do anything on the international stage. Europe seems to be at least as strong as the past, at least a guy like Hohmann can appear in the last few years and show he is world class. Where is America's Hohmann? I dont think Gabe Owen is it despite a good US Open win, Hohmann won the worlds and has never stopped proving it was no fluke and that he really is that good, Owen won the US Open and then made many of us think he was just having a great day.

Deull was America's one hope when he had the chance to really focus on pool IMO, he chose to play golf and slack off in pool and now I really question whether he has what it takes to compete against those guys at the top in the worlds. We shall see.

 

[sjm]

An extremely well presented and well reasoned post, Celtic. Many of Taiwan's great players do seem to live under the radar, the way so many of the great Fillipinos once did.

And, yes, I also wonder who the American version of Thorsten Hohmann is on the horizon. No young American male, possibly excepting 10-year old Landon Shuffett, seems to be in the process of building the kind of pedigree needed to be a superstar on the world stage one day. Why is this so? Well, that's for another thread.

 

[LastTwo]

In Taiwan pool is part of the education curriculum for people even in grade school. Over there pool can make you successful, you can live comfortably and be well accomodated if you are a star. Thorsten Hohmann spent 5 years in the German army and his duty was to play pool. His daily routine consisted of exercising and running hundreds of balls practicing straight pool. The young players in America really don't have the opportunities to play nothing but pool and be pampered like the young men from the other countries. Corey Deuel is much different from every player on the planet. The guy's genius in the game is unsurpassed. He had to deal with life on the road. Those guys in Taiwan like Yang and Chao never had to go on the road, they had their asses wiped for them. If Corey sticks with pool he IS the future of the USA's dominance in the game, there is nobody that has as much talent as he does. All of those guys like Yang and Hohmann had easy lives playing pool, of course they play great. Corey had a rougher life and he plays just as good or better, go figure.

 

[T411]

And, yes, I also wonder who the American version of Thorsten Hohmann is on the horizon. No young American male, possibly excepting 10-year old Landon Shuffett, seems to be in the process of building the kind of pedigree needed to be a superstar on the world stage one day. Why is this so? Well, that's for another thread.

There are some other young Americans that are on the same level as Landon. Go check out the BCA Junior Nationals one year. You would be surprised how well some of these youngsters can play! It is amazing to see the level of play. I think it is a matter of if these kids continue to keep playing.

 

[Celtic]

...

That was a great post LT. I did not know Taiwan was breeding their pool players like that or that Germany would focus that much attention on a pool prodigy for the sake of its nations pride (although knowing Germany's past of pride in sport the word DUH! comes to mind for myself). It is a real shame that the USA and Canada do not have anything in place like that. Snooker in England is structured and takes those strong players who show talent and make sure they develop into seriously phenomenal players (which explains the strength of their nation in the sport). The USA instead takes some freak who is 6 foot 8 in grade 12 and makes him into a basketball star, or some 300 pound football player and walk him through university where it is possible he never picks up a pen and tries to give him a story behind owning that brand new Escalade despite coming from a poverty ridden household. Be nice if some kind of respect could be given to the up and coming pool players, college pool championships used to be done, perhaps such things should be looked at and given more attention.

Maybe the UPA should look into sanctioning some college stuff, they can probably get a whole bunch of interesting sponsership options for players with high natural talent like Landon to get free university tuition as it is a write off and big business are giddy when helping education as it looks REALLY good on them. A college tournament where the best of the big colleges actually compete could be really cool and would really help this sport get more popular. It would be a huge impetus for kids to play the game if a free tuition is a possible reward. Long term advantages for the sport would be massive.

 

[pete lafond]

It would be a huge impetus for kids to play the game if a free tuition is a possible reward. Long term advantages for the sport would be massive.

I have read that they are trying to get billiards into the Olympics in 2008 or 2012. If this happens it would be the tell-all to those countries that have the largest influence in the game for kids.

 

[T411]

It is a real shame that the USA and Canada do not have anything in place like that. Snooker in England is structured and takes those strong players who show talent and make sure they develop into seriously phenomenal players (which explains the strength of their nation in the sport). The USA instead takes some freak who is 6 foot 8 in grade 12 and makes him into a basketball star, or some 300 pound football player and walk him through university where it is possible he never picks up a pen and tries to give him a story behind owning that brand new Escalade despite coming from a poverty ridden household. Be nice if some kind of respect could be given to the up and coming pool players, college pool championships used to be done, perhaps such things should be looked at and given more attention.

I agree that it would be nice to have better sponsorship and programs to help promote our sport but I do not think that knocking other sports or athletes is any help. An athlete in any sport who is a prodigy can be considered a “freak” such as Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, Tiger Woods. We fight stereotypes about our sport or game of pool enough not to stoop. I wish like you that more would be done for our sport.

 

[JAM]

Back in the late 80's and early 90's the Philipines held this kind of mystisicm due to all these totally unknown players that play pro level pool and just stick around in that locality. We all heard stories about guys that could go with any of the top American players for the cash that we had never even heard of.

Before the Philippino Invasion, it was the Mexican champions who were the toughest opponents to American players on the tournament trail.

Then there is Taiwan though, I would say it has largely taken the place of the Philipines as the new well kept secret of pool stardom...Seems Taiwan was the next best kept secret of the pool world and if the past is any sort of lesson then we should be wary of some serious inroads of a large number of those Taiwanese players onto the international stage. The San Miguel will likely spare the USA the kicking they took at the hands of Efren and Busta over a few years, it will stop alot of the unknowns from doing a Alcano and coming over to lay waste to a regional tour for a while.

Celtic, I say let 'em all come, give it their best shot, and lay their waste.

With Asian tours restricting participation to only Philippinos and others of Asian descent, it is difficult to know how well the Taiwanese players would match up with, say, Gabe Owen, Corey Deuel, Johnny Archer, and Danny Basavich. We read about the winners of these Asian tournaments in which only Asian players compete, and although I am sure these winners are great champions, the results are rather skewed on an international scale.

Nevertheless it seems like in its hour of weakness yet another master of the pool world is going to make it that much harder for America (and I include Canada in this mix) to do anything on the international stage. Europe seems to be at least as strong as the past, at least a guy like Hohmann can appear in the last few years and show he is world class. Where is America's Hohmann?

Thorsten Hohmann is a world-class champion. However, he moved to the United States, the land of opportunity, where all pool players are welcome. He told me personally last November that Europe does not offer as many opportunities for him and pool players like him to showcase their talent. Europe's loss is America's gain, I guess. Thorsten Hohmann is not the first foreign-born players to come to the land of opportunity. It's kind of frightful, though, that everybody is chewing on the same American pool bone, with not much meat on it.

I dont think Gabe Owen is it despite a good US Open win...Deull was America's one hope when he had the chance to really focus on pool IMO, he chose to play golf and slack off in pool and now I really question whether he has what it takes to compete against those guys at the top in the worlds. We shall see.

Both Gabe Owen and Corey Deuel have the capabilities to win any event they enter, but I do think that America has other "hopefuls" in the mix. I could start another "Who's the Best..." thread, but if one were to do a quick search, there are many names that surface here in the States and could, at any given time, defeat a Philippino, Taiwanese, or other nationality.

Thankfully, the United States provides venues where players from all over the world are eligible and can be all that they can be. Let's see how well our foreign comrades do at the upcoming U.S. Open, if they decide to strut their stuff on American soil.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[pete lafond]

I agree that it would be nice to have better sponsorship and programs to help promote our sport but I do not think that knocking other sports or athletes is any help. An athlete in any sport who is a prodigy can be considered a “freak” such as Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, Tiger Woods. We fight stereotypes about our sport or game of pool enough not to stoop. I wish like you that more would be done for our sport.

Realizing the pros mentioned such as Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, Tiger Woods,.. are not the freaks. The reference was more towards the others that because of physical characteristics they are drawn into the sport. e.g. 7 ft basketball player, 400 lb football player and so forth. Many of these players are not as athletic though their unusual size gives them a place in the game.

I have spent some time talking with companies that tape pro events, I will not name. One of the biggest problems is that there is no governing body that all other associations such as BCA, UPA,, have to report to. As a result players can throw tantrums, be completely disgraceful and not have to worry about getting kicked out of tournament play, there is always another tournament. I was told that they will not even capture some players because their attitudes and actions are horrible.

Given this, what do you think ESPN and others think? What about sponsors? They have had enough problems with players like D. Strawberry from the Mets, and more... They look at billiards and see nothing but big potential problems.

This is were the problems are...

 

[LOOPSHARK]

The real problem with billiards is it has been given a bad image from the beginning. Ever since there was Cowboys there has been pool or billiards. This game is Americas true pastime, but there has always been a bad image given to pool because there has been gambling since it started. But I agree that the American players are hands down better than any other countries players because we have the heart and emotion for the game. Corey Deuel is the best player in the game right now, even though Efren is ahead on the money lists. He is the person who could make pool in America a primetime sport, and his knowledge of the game is unbelievable. I have watched him and played against him and after seeing the things that he can do, it made me want to play everyday all day.

 

[Hoyo]

...With Asian tours restricting participation to only Philippinos and others of Asian descent, it is difficult to know how well the Taiwanese players would match up with, say, Gabe Owen, Corey Deuel, Johnny Archer, and Danny Basavich. We read about the winners of these Asian tournaments in which only Asian players compete, and although I am sure these winners are great champions, the results are rather skewed on an international scale....

I think Philippine Open is a good opportunity to prove how well the Asian players.
Archer, Owen, Pagulayan were all eliminated by taiwanese players and Morris also lost to Yang.
http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2265
http://www.cosmo-tokyo.co.jp/po/piost2.htm

Unlike USA, San Miguel Asian 9-Ball Tour is only tournemnt in asia. Asian are really very pitiful.

 

[BlowFish]

Sport and Politics don't mix.

The Taiwanese are so far the best in supporting the sport and it's future growth. They should be the envy of pool players worldwide.

The Filipinos on the other hand really have good talents. Really pure talent. The issue with Filipinos is that they don't get along. The pool scene is controlled by Puyat alone. And just too much politics in sports in general. (I won't even go deep into it. That's a separate forum.)

With Asian tours restricting participation to only Philippinos and others of Asian descent, it is difficult to know how well the Taiwanese players would match up with, say, Gabe Owen, Corey Deuel, Johnny Archer, and Danny Basavich. We read about the winners of these Asian tournaments in which only Asian players compete, and although I am sure these winners are great champions, the results are rather skewed on an international scale.

If you're referring to SMB 9Ball Asian Tour, then there is a reason for that. This tour is exclusive to the countries in Asia, as it is the only ranking tour that picks the top 10 in Asia to qualify for WPC. There are still other International Open Tournaments around Asia that is open to everyone.



Asia has it's own share of problems with pool. Japan has two governing bodies/association that competes against each other as mentioned by one poster here. Hong Kong only supports snooker all out, but not pool. I think Thailand has the same issue as well. Philippines as mentioned above.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Realizing the pros mentioned such as Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, Tiger Woods,.. are not the freaks. The reference was more towards the others that because of physical characteristics they are drawn into the sport. e.g. 7 ft basketball player, 400 lb football player and so forth. Many of these players are not as athletic though their unusual size gives them a place in the game.

Um...there aren't many 400 pound football players out there and size does not a good lineman make. Linemen in the NFL are generally around 6'2" - 6'8" and 280 - 340 lbs and can run the 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds. These guys are also incredibly quick, strong and powerful so it doesn't stand to reason that they are not great, and underappreciated I might add, athletes!

 

[JAM]

The Taiwanese are so far the best in supporting the sport and its future growth. They should be the envy of pool players worldwide.

It is difficult for me to understand how or why the Taiwanese are the BEST in supporting the sport. However, having stated that, I don't see to many Taiwanese players coming to the United States for competition.

I do see foreign female players making the trek to the United States because the opportunities in their native countries pale in comparison to what is offered in the States. We welcome players of all nationalities, gender, religion, creed, and color.

The Philippinos used to come to the States, but there seems to be an abundance of opportunities overseas, to include Taiwan, for them to make money. Otherwise, I believe they would be traveling to the States, as they did several years ago. We may get the chance to see some Philippino champions make a cameo appearance at the upcoming U.S. Open.

The Filipinos on the other hand really have good talents. Really pure talent. The issue with Filipinos is that they don't get along. The pool scene is controlled by Puyat alone. And just too much politics in sports in general. (I won't even go deep into it. That's a separate forum.)

I hear 'ya, BlowFish. It sucks, the damn pool politics!

If you're referring to SMB 9Ball Asian Tour, then there is a reason for that. This tour is exclusive to the countries in Asia, as it is the only ranking tour that picks the top 10 in Asia to qualify for WPC. There are still other International Open Tournaments around Asia that is open to everyone.

I understand that to be so, and that is a good thing. I was only mentioning that when one reads about Taiwanese, Philippino, and Asian players winning events, the results are skewed if the tournament was gender- and/or nationality-restricted.

Asia has its own share of problems with pool. Japan has two governing bodies/association that competes against each other as mentioned by one poster here. Hong Kong only supports snooker all out, but not pool. I think Thailand has the same issue as well. Philippines as mentioned above.

Just out of curiosity, BlowFish, is there any effort going on currently for the Asian countries to provide pool opportunities for the ladies, or is it mainly a male-dominated pool force that is in existence?

JAM

 

[Eric.]

That was a great post LT. I did not know Taiwan was breeding their pool players like that or that Germany would focus that much attention on a pool prodigy for the sake of its nations pride (although knowing Germany's past of pride in sport the word DUH! comes to mind for myself). It is a real shame that the USA and Canada do not have anything in place like that. Snooker in England is structured and takes those strong players who show talent and make sure they develop into seriously phenomenal players (which explains the strength of their nation in the sport). The USA instead takes some freak who is 6 foot 8 in grade 12 and makes him into a basketball star, or some 300 pound football player and walk him through university where it is possible he never picks up a pen and tries to give him a story behind owning that brand new Escalade despite coming from a poverty ridden household. Be nice if some kind of respect could be given to the up and coming pool players, college pool championships used to be done, perhaps such things should be looked at and given more attention.

Maybe the UPA should look into sanctioning some college stuff, they can probably get a whole bunch of interesting sponsership options for players with high natural talent like Landon to get free university tuition as it is a write off and big business are giddy when helping education as it looks REALLY good on them. A college tournament where the best of the big colleges actually compete could be really cool and would really help this sport get more popular. It would be a huge impetus for kids to play the game if a free tuition is a possible reward. Long term advantages for the sport would be massive.

CEltic,

LT is misinformed.

I've spent time in Taiwan and had a chance to see the Pool culture and believe it or not, it is very much like the good ol US of A. There are no "special govenment programs" or"Pool in the curriculum (sp?)" of every school. Although, there are "electives" in schools where you can take Pool, Taiwan is not a communist country so there isn't a heavy government influence. Pool is so popular in that country. It's more of a cultrual thing tahn some kind of master plan by Taiwan to dominate the wolrd of Pool.

So why are ther so many good players in Taiwan? Dedication and numbers. Dedication because alot of Taiwanese kids start playing young and keep at it. They take their games very seriously. There is also alot of people playing, relative to the overall population. With a larger pool of players, you will have more high level players emerging, although percentagewise, it is probably no more than anywhere else. The best example of this is Basketball. Some of the best basketball players in the world are from the US. Why? Well, alot of kids start playing young. They play after school, shooting baskets for hours. They play in schools. By the time they're 18, they are ready for the NBA (ala Kobe Bryant).

That's the deal with Pool in Taiwan.


Eric

 

[BlowFish]

Opportunities

It is difficult for me to understand how or why the Taiwanese are the BEST in supporting the sport. However, having stated that, I don't see to many Taiwanese players coming to the United States for competition.

Almost weekly televised tournaments. Being treated like movie stars.

In regards to traveling to the US, I really don't know. I can only speculate. The 2 reasons above are part of it. Language is another and abundance of Asia Tourneys as well. Another reason could be economic stature. Taiwan is a develop country, while the Philippines is still stuck in the 3rd World.

The Philippinos used to come to the States, but there seems to be an abundance of opportunities overseas, to include Taiwan, for them to make money. Otherwise, I believe they would be traveling to the States, as they did several years ago. We may get the chance to see some Philippino champions make a cameo appearance at the upcoming U.S. Open.

Yes, that is true. Opportunites have been abundant in Asia, hence the filipinos doesn't need to travel long and spend more $$$ in staying in the US. Unless they can recoup their expenses, they will think long and hard in attending US tournaments. Unless it's a big major tournament, it's really hard to justify a trip to the US.

Also, it will be hard now for a filipino to get played in the US for $$$ unless they give some sort of weight.

Just out of curiosity, BlowFish, is there any effort going on currently for the Asian countries to provide pool opportunities for the ladies, or is it mainly a male-dominated pool force that is in existence?

There are tournaments in Asia for Females. Japan, Korea and Taiwan have them. I know it's not as big as the US WPBA has (which I think is the best for female pool in the world), but it's starting to roll. Philippines has some pretty good female players, but they are not given the same exposure as the filipino males.

 

[T411]

Realizing the pros mentioned such as Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, Tiger Woods,.. are not the freaks. The reference was more towards the others that because of physical characteristics they are drawn into the sport. e.g. 7 ft basketball player, 400 lb football player and so forth. Many of these players are not as athletic though their unusual size gives them a place in the game.

I was talking more about stereotypes like this:

Originally Posted by Celtic
It is a real shame that the USA and Canada do not have anything in place like that. Snooker in England is structured and takes those strong players who show talent and make sure they develop into seriously phenomenal players (which explains the strength of their nation in the sport). The USA instead takes some freak who is 6 foot 8 in grade 12 and makes him into a basketball star, or some 300 pound football player and walk him through university where it is possible he never picks up a pen and tries to give him a story behind owning that brand new Escalade despite coming from a poverty ridden household.

I was trying to say that anybody that is a Michel Jordan, Lance Armstrong, Efren Reyes, or Tiger Woods, are freaks (as in a prodigy). They are not the norm and whatever the reason, be it physical mental or whatever, these people do things that even the above average person at their game cannot.

 

[SplicedPoints]

I think people are somewhat mistaken in describing Taiwan as the heaven for pool.

1) The pros are not treated like movie stars and mostly don't live comfortably and make lots of money. They do get a lot more exposure than the pros in the US, but because competiton amongst pros is so taugh locally, it's extremely difficult to make a decent living as a Pro player in Taiwan. Anybody remember Lai and Chang? (2 semi-finalists at the WPC) They rather focus on running their pool rooms than compete full time on the tournament circuit because it's just too difficult with all the new players comming.

2) THe school thing's probably overblown. The majority of the kids don't take pool at school and they don't have the time (given the ridiculous pressure they are faced if they want to go on to college). As far as I know, pool is still widely seen as a less than desierable sport in Taiwan. The national sport is baseball, not pool. In fact, pool used to be named as one of the 'sins' in a old Taiwanese slang, along with gambling, smoking, and other illegal activities. Even as far back as 10 to 15 years ago, middle and highschool kids were mostly forbidden to go into pool halls and school marshals made regular inspections at the pool halls and catch any kid in school uniform playing pool. (i'm not kidding, I even saw that just a couple years ago).

3) The competition is strong here, no doubt. It is rather easy to find new competition because Taiwan is not a big country like the US. If you're a good player in Washington, for example, you would probably spend most of your time playing players from your local pool hall. If you're in Kaoshiung, for example, you can find players like Chao, Yang, Hsia, Chang (WPC semi finalisst in 1999), Kuo, and many other pros to play with if you want to gamble. (they're all based in Kaoshiung) If you are not quite at the pro level yet, you can find a pool hall relatively easily and play the house pros (whom could very well play at a world class level). Not many other places in the world has that kind of cometition in a relatively small geographic location. If you want, within a couple hours drive or train ride you can even more world class competition. That's how players get good.

 

[sjm]

There are some other young Americans that are on the same level as Landon. Go check out the BCA Junior Nationals one year. You would be surprised how well some of these youngsters can play! It is amazing to see the level of play. I think it is a matter of if these kids continue to keep playing.

Agreed, and I did follow the junior nationals extremely closely. I did not say the US doesn't have some great young players. Justin Bergman and Jamie Baraks are late teens and both play jam up. What I did say is that it didn't appear that we had an emerging interntional susperstar in our midst, other than Landon (and I should have included the eleven year old Murphy). I believe fifteen year old John Morra is Candadian.

Most of those that go on to be superstars on the world stage already play world class pool as teenagers. As I grew up, three great American teenage players I got to watch were Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, and Earl Strickland. Each could gamble with almost anyone in the world as a late teen and it was clear even then that all three had a chance to be counted among the greats one day on the world stage. If there is an American that will play like that as a teen, I suspect it's probably Landon.

Still, I'm more than prepared to admit that there are probably some great teenage or pre-teen American players under my radar, and I hope to see them play soon. I'm as curious as anyone to find out who America's next Johnny Archer is.

 

[Celtic]

Archer was not even under the radar. I have the accustat of his first major win at the Sands (back when it got a really strong field with all the top American players) and with Buddy Hall as the guest anouncer he basically stated that all the pro's were hoping against Johnny winning because once he won one he would go on to dominate, and he did. That was at 19 years old he won that event and at that age already he was probably as good as anyone in America. Now the so called "young" up and comers are 25 years old and even older and I dont see them as anywhere near the phenom Johnny was. At 19 you just knew Johnny was going to be phenomenal and win the worlds. Noone since has shown up like that from America. Yang is definately the same type of player who exploded onto the scene and you dont ask "if" he will win the WPC but instead "when".