Taiwan TOI

Masayoshi said:
...within a reasonable margin of error, more deflection from a larger offset just equals more curve (and throw) to cancel it out and with the right speed, it is pretty much the same shot until you go pas center ball.
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The same thing is true for trying to hit center ball. You haven't shown that off center is better.

...a slight over or under spin is easier to account for than the opposite spin of what you intended or spin when you intended not to spin.
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I understand how it seems that way - "any" seems more significant than "more" or "less". But they're the same in relation to your intended target.

pj
chgo
 
ENGLISH! said:
He's already slung mud in my eye & made a false accusation for stating what I don't like to do.
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PJ has a habit of knocking pro players and instructors . Calling there products gimmicks and immediately after that he will try to discredit and hurt their business by jumping in every time someone says something positive about their methods/systems. PJ may be good for the sport but I've never seen it. It's this same argumentative BS every time .
I'm not sweating it though , he"ll be gone in a week unless he stops posting .
 
peteypooldude said:
PJ has a habit of knocking pro players and instructors . Calling there products gimmicks and immediately after that he will try to discredit and hurt their business by jumping in every time someone says something positive about their methods/systems. PJ may be good for the sport but I've never seen it. It's this same argumentative BS every time .
I'm not sweating it though , he"ll be gone in a week unless he stops posting .
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Maybe it because, at times, they are just plain wrong and make statements that are very misleading in what it takes to master pool.

As example "TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating." Nothing could be further from the truth and newbies will take those as gospel.

A strong, focused practice program is the only way to increase consistency. TOI has nothing to do with it.

And this kind misleading statements need to be deal with.
 
TIt's easier to instinctively know where the side of the pocket is, not the center.

Bambu said:
Regardless of which side of the ball is hit, deflection, speed and spin need to be calculated. Sometimes swerve too. The main difference is that outside spin eliminates throw, inside usually does not. Perhaps that's why for most players, outside spin is easier to use.

I'm also thinking, as far as margin of error goes: If I try to hit a touch of either side of the cue ball but hit center instead, I cant imagine the ball still going in. I mean if you miss your mark you miss your mark. It's all a matter of how "off" you were.
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When you are using the TOI method, the ball will still go in the side of the pocket closest to the object ball if you hit "center ball". When it deflects slightly it will it the center of the pocket (which is generally preferred), and if it deflects slightly more it will still go in the outside of the pocket.

I hit the center of the pocket consistently, however, it's a result of this technique. It's best to only aim at the center when shooting a straight-in shot. Shoot a rack of 9 ball and be aware of how often you can even see the center of the pocket and you'll understand what I mean. Pro players will refer to this as having a "feel for the pocket".

It's easier to instinctively know where the side of the pocket is, not the center.

This method is called the '3 Part Pocket System' which actually trains a player to see the pocket as a zone.( pocket zone. )
 
CJ Wiley said:
When you are using the TOI method, the ball will still go in the side of the pocket closest to the object ball if you hit "center ball". When it deflects slightly it will it the center of the pocket (which is generally preferred), and if it deflects slightly more it will still go in the outside of the pocket.

I hit the center of the pocket consistently, however, it's a result of this technique. It's best to only aim at the center when shooting a straight-in shot. Shoot a rack of 9 ball and be aware of how often you can even see the center of the pocket and you'll understand what I mean. Pro players will refer to this as having a "feel for the pocket".

It's easier to instinctively know where the side of the pocket is, not the center.

This method is called the '3 Part Pocket System' which actually trains a player to see the pocket as a zone.( pocket zone. )
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You are breaking down the hypothetical errors to such minute amounts, that I do believe the ball might still go in under those conditions. I'm also willing to believe you are good enough that when you do miss your mark, its by such a tiny amount that it doesn't make much difference anyway.

So if you were off by the same tiny amount, but using center.....I'm thinking you would also, still make the shot. Me, I don't have the stroke you do, so I get better results factoring throw into my shots instead.
 
I can even cheat the pocket on long, straight-in shots using TOI consistently.

Bambu said:
You are breaking down the hypothetical errors to such minute amounts, that I do believe the ball might still go in under those conditions. I'm also willing to believe you are good enough that when you do miss your mark, its by such a tiny amount that it doesn't make much difference anyway.

So if you were off by the same tiny amount, but using center.....I'm thinking you would also, still make the shot. Me, I don't have the stroke you do, so I get better results factoring throw into my shots instead.
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Just remember ALL margin of error that translates to the object ball/pocket are located on the cue ball. The cue ball is the only part of the game you physically/directly influence (with your TIP).

You're right, the better you get, the less TOI is required to get the reaction you expect. The most important thing is to always know which way the cue ball will move off line. You and I neither one can do this using "center ball".

Another benefit of training with TOI is developing the skill of "cheating the pocket" using speed, not spin. This comes up a lot and won't be recognized unless your''re familiar with this system of play. I can even cheat the pocket on long, straight-in shots using TOI consistently.

These can be essential tools to reach the next level of your development, I know it was vital in mine.

Play Well.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Just remember ALL margin of error that translates to the object ball/pocket are located on the cue ball. The cue ball is the only part of the game you physically/directly influence (with your TIP).

You're right, the better you get, the less TOI is required to get the reaction you expect. The most important thing is to always know which way the cue ball will move off line. You and I neither one can do this using "center ball".

Another benefit of training with TOI is developing the skill of "cheating the pocket" using speed, not spin. This comes up a lot and won't be recognized unless your''re familiar with this system of play. I can even cheat the pocket on long, straight-in shots using TOI consistently.

These can be essential tools to reach the next level of your development, I know it was vital in mine.

Play Well.
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I like this post's main theme. It talks about what can be done with the cue ball to create different angles of approach to the object ball with speed/stroke versus employing different spins or changing alignments.

On many shots, a player can take different routes for position. An outside spin shooter will look for those routes versus a player that likes to use inside spin routes.

The idea of using deflection of the cue ball, whether it's one side or the other of the cue ball, is more consistent than applying spin or a slight alignment change for different angles. Especially, cheating pockets.

I'm working on the straight ins and creating an angle with deflection. It's much harder to put spin on the cue ball or move my aim over a hair. Deflection is much more predictable by changing shot speed or a slight adjustment of tip placement for very slight changes in aiming.

Best,
Mike
 
duckie said:
A strong, focused practice program is the only way to increase consistency. TOI has nothing to do with it.
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Actually, I think consistency is one of the real benefits of TOI. TOI teaches precise tip placement, which is key to consistency, accuracy, and faster learning. It's a valuable principle - I just wish it was taught more realistically, without the "spin bias" and hyperbole. But what fun would that be?

pj
chgo
 
If TOI on all shots increases consistency, then a 100 all run in straight pool is no issue.

Remember TOI must be used on all shots.

Now get into safety play in 14.1. Favorite safety play is to make the 15th ball and then freeze the CB to the rack. Try that with TOI.

What is comes down to in real world is not what style of play is used, what aiming method and so forth. It comes down to how well you develop your skills using whatever suits you.

There is only one way to master whatever way ones goes.......proper practice using that way. Just remember your way is not The Way as there is no one way.

But hey.......just a no name banger.....

PS......I really wish these pro would be honest on how much table time it reallyhas taken them to get where they are.
 
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If that's your favorite safety play, then you need to learn to play better shape on your break balls.
 
victorl said:
If that's your favorite safety play, then you need to learn to play better shape on your break balls.
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Guess you never played someone that dogged the 15th ball leaving you with no way to get a decent break shot then, huh. Sometimes you are forced into safety play. A seasoned 14.1 player would know this.
 
duckie said:
If TOI on all shots increases consistency, then a 100 all run in straight pool is no issue.

Remember TOI must be used on all shots...
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Why? CJ doesn't use TOI on all shots. He uses the alignment for consistency and uses center ball and outside when needed. I do the same.

Best,
Mike
 
duckie said:
Guess you never played someone that dogged the 15th ball leaving you with no way to get a decent break shot then, huh. Sometimes you are forced into safety play. A seasoned 14.1 player would know this.
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So you mean the guy takes a shot at the break ball, misses it AND leaves the rack intact? How often does that happen? :confused:

duckie said:
Favorite safety play is to make the 15th ball and then freeze the CB to the rack.
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And if you can make the break ball and freeze the cb to rack, why can't you hit a little harder and knock out a ball or two to keep the run going?
 
I get the sensation that I can create the angles mentally, not just physically.

Mikjary said:
Why? CJ doesn't use TOI on all shots. He uses the alignment for consistency and uses center ball and outside when needed. I do the same.

Best,
Mike
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That's correct, the slight, inside position could be thought of as an "inside center," which counters the after contact spin. If I want to apply a slight amount of spin I can simply pivot a hair to center, however, my cue is slightly angled towards the side of the object ball I'm contacting.

This slight pivot will still creates an approach to the object ball that will cut the ball more so the players can still favor the inside of the pocket. It's easy to experiment with, simply set up a straight-in shot to the middle diamond of the end rail. Then cue the ball to the inside and pivot to center - hit the ball without adjusting and you'll create an angle.

I show this at the very beginning of the TOI DVD, don't overlook how important it is, and if you don't remember what I'm referring to, watch the video again, paying close attention to the first section.

Focus on where you're tip is contacting the cue ball, after all it's the main target. What the object ball does is a reflection of how we contact the cue ball. In other words it has a "mirror effect," (low on the cue ball puts high on the OB, left puts right, high puts low, etc).

In the case of TOI the mirror effect is neutralized (as long as minimal spin is applied to the cue ball) - the more you target the cue ball to the right, the more the ball cuts to the right, the more you cue the ball to the left, the more the object ball cuts to the left.

From my experience this opens a "new dimension" in my mind - I get the sensation of creating the angles mentally, not just physically.

This state of mind is what is referred to as "the zone". The "Touch" of inside develops a feeling of connection, I describe this as "feeling the angle or Game with my eyes".

There are a few other ways to get into the zone, however, using TOI is the best way I've found, and it's proven it's self over many years of competitive matches. The longer I play, the deeper into the zone, - it will reach a point that I can't even remember (consciously) the last game, and sometimes the last shot.
 
CJ Wiley said:
There are a few other ways to get into the zone, however, using TOI is the best way I've found
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For me focus is the key to getting into the zone, and focusing on tip/ball precision is one of the best ways I've found too - not favoring one kind of placement like TOI, but simply paying closer attention to hitting the CB precisely wherever I need to. Finding one thing to narrow my focus on is like a focusing "trigger" for me - soon I'm more focused in general.

pj
chgo
 
CJ Wiley said:
Just remember ALL margin of error that translates to the object ball/pocket are located on the cue ball. The cue ball is the only part of the game you physically/directly influence (with your TIP).

You're right, the better you get, the less TOI is required to get the reaction you expect. The most important thing is to always know which way the cue ball will move off line. You and I neither one can do this using "center ball".

Another benefit of training with TOI is developing the skill of "cheating the pocket" using speed, not spin. This comes up a lot and won't be recognized unless your''re familiar with this system of play. I can even cheat the pocket on long, straight-in shots using TOI consistently.

These can be essential tools to reach the next level of your development, I know it was vital in mine.

Play Well.
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I'm still not sure why you say it cant be done with center ball, especially when there have been so many great center ballers in the past. Also not sure how speed would come into play to cheat the pocket. The only way I can use speed to cheat the pocket, is with throw. But your dvd doesn't mention throw, so I'm still confused. The only other thing I didn't like, was using a Z-2 with toi. I might give it another go sometime, but that just didn't seem to blend well.

And I don't say this to be mean, only to learn whatever I can.
 
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