Talent vs. Tenacity

9BallPaul

9BallPaul

Banned
Pool is one of about five sports that I've pursued diligently, and it's certainly the most difficult in terms of required precision and discipline. Those talents, seems to me, are developed almost entirely through practice, although talent sets the upper-level that your practice will take you.

But then personality enters the game. Think pro quarterbacks -- Jay Cutler talented as hell, but a loser; Tim Tebow, less talented, but he'll take his teams further -- and I can easily transpose into pool players I've known. I'll keep names out of this, but feel free to bring them up yourselves. My point is there are natural born winners and natural born losers, and talent often takes second chair to personality. And willingness to work hard.

My other sports are bicycling, which requires some discipline and talent, but endurance and grit are the basic requirements; and trout fishing, in which knowledge and experience are usually the best predictors of success.

Your thoughts, AZers?
 
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I've seen some great players that couldn't cross the goal line, so to speak. And some lesser skilled players who got their heads beat in, but kept coming back until they reached the top. Tenacity and Heart is what makes a pool champion.

I'll give you one example of a well known player who fit the bill. Nick Varner started coming to pro tournaments after he won the college title a couple of times. Believe me, that feat didn't impress any of the pro players back then. Nick struggled out there for a number of years, and a lesser man might have given up. Not Nick though! He persevered and started winning tourneys in his late 20's. Once he started winning, he never stopped. He had arrived!

When Johnny was a teenager (about 18) he began following the pro tour to tournaments everywhere, a straight shooting kid. At first he had trouble getting in the money and then he finished second several times. He looked at me one day (he was about 21 then and had been playing for maybe three years in pro events) and said, "Jay will I ever win one of these things?" He really meant that too. I responded to him that YES he would win one, and once he did he would win a lot of them. I guess it kind of worked out that way.

I see it today in players like Hunter Lombardo. Not so great when he first started entering tournaments, but hung in there and keeps getting better year after year. Jason Klatt is another one who has been relentless in his drive to reach the top. He may be headed for a break through year next year. I wouldn't be surprised. It really takes this kind of dedication to be a top player. So many fall by the wayside along the way. I don't need to name them, but there are so many who have failed, and quit. Good players too, just lacking the tenacity that you are talking about.

Look, even Ralf struggled when he first came here to play. He never for a minute thought about quitting though. He was determined to succeed. And did!
 
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jay helfert said:
I've seen some great players that couldn't cross the goal line, so to speak. And some lesser skilled players who got their heads beat in, but kept coming back until they reached the top. Tenacity and Heart is what makes a pool champion.

I'll give you one example of a well known player who fit the bill. Nick Varner started coming to pro tournaments after he won the college title a couple of times. Believe me, that feat didn't impress any of the pro players back then. Nick struggled out there for a number of years, and a lesser man might have given up. Not Nick though! He persevered and started winning tourneys in his late 20's. Once he started winning, he never stopped. He had arrived!

When Johnny was a teenager (about 18) he began following the pro tour to tournaments everywhere, a straight shooting kid. At first he had trouble getting in the money and then he finished second several times. He looked at me one day (he was about 21 then and had been playing for maybe three years in pro events) and said, "Jay will I ever win one of these things?" He really meant that too. I responded to him that YES he would win one, and once he did he would win a lot of them. I guess it kind of worked out that way.

I see it today in players like Hunter Lombardo. Not so great when he first started entering tournaments, but hung in there and keeps getting better year after year. Jason Klatt is another one who has been relentless in his drive to reach the top. He may be headed for a break through year next year. I wouldn't be surprised. It really takes this kind of dedication to be a top player. So many fall by the wayside along the way. I don't need to name them, but there are so many who have failed, and quit.

Look, even Ralf struggled when he first came here to play. He never for a minute thought about quitting though. He was determined to succeed. And did!
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Great post Jay. It's not the ones who are great after winning. It's the ones who are great and when they lose they get up, mad as hell and get better. When they lose again they get even more pissed off and they get better.

I told someone on here that the sky's the limit only when you make the limit the sky and that applies in losing and in winning.
 
jay helfert said:
I've seen some great players that couldn't cross the goal line, so to speak. And some lesser skilled players who got their heads beat in, but kept coming back until they reached the top. Tenacity and Heart is what makes a pool champion.

I'll give you one example of a well known player who fit the bill. Nick Varner started coming to pro tournaments after he won the college title a couple of times. Believe me, that feat didn't impress any of the pro players back then. Nick struggled out there for a number of years, and a lesser man might have given up. Not Nick though! He persevered and started winning tourneys in his late 20's. Once he started winning, he never stopped. He had arrived!

When Johnny was a teenager (about 18) he began following the pro tour to tournaments everywhere, a straight shooting kid. At first he had trouble getting in the money and then he finished second several times. He looked at me one day (he was about 21 then and had been playing for maybe three years in pro events) and said, "Jay will I ever win one of these things?" He really meant that too. I responded to him that YES he would win one, and once he did he would win a lot of them. I guess it kind of worked out that way.

I see it today in players like Hunter Lombardo. Not so great when he first started entering tournaments, but hung in there and keeps getting better year after year. Jason Klatt is another one who has been relentless in his drive to reach the top. He may be headed for a break through year next year. I wouldn't be surprised. It really takes this kind of dedication to be a top player. So many fall by the wayside along the way. I don't need to name them, but there are so many who have failed, and quit. Good players too, just lacking the tenacity that you are talking about.

Look, even Ralf struggled when he first came here to play. He never for a minute thought about quitting though. He was determined to succeed. And did!
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JA, Nick and Ralf have both talent and Tenacity. I think JA has the most talent of the 3, Nick practiced the most, and I dont know enough about Ralf to say more than I did.

You have to have both to become a world champion, SVB has more tenacity than talent, he works harder than anyone I know about these days, a few years back it was Nick, his mentality was "If your awake you should be hitting balls", and he did, it paid off very well as one of the most respected players of all time and he still at 62 is ready to play, and run his business. Nick is amazing. SVB is as well, I have seen him play 10-12 hours a day at my house by himself, if he dosent play long hours he dosent play near as good as he can. Mark Tadd might not pick up a cue for months and can play his best in a few hours.


Thats why I say it takes both, You cant be a top player id there is a chink in your armor, you have to have it all.
 
Fatboy said:
JA, Nick and Ralf have both talent and Tenacity. I think JA has the most talent of the 3, Nick practiced the most, and I dont know enough about Ralf to say more than I did.

You have to have both to become a world champion, SVB has more tenacity than talent, he works harder than anyone I know about these days, a few years back it was Nick, his mentality was "If your awake you should be hitting balls", and he did, it paid off very well as one of the most respected players of all time and he still at 62 is ready to play, and run his business. Nick is amazing. SVB is as well, I have seen him play 10-12 hours a day at my house by himself, if he dosent play long hours he dosent play near as good as he can. Mark Tadd might not pick up a cue for months and can play his best in a few hours.


Thats why I say it takes both, You cant be a top player id there is a chink in your armor, you have to have it all.
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mark tadd is such a great name to bring up in this discussion. i think the best quote about him was (i heard buddy quote somebody that said this) "mark tad is the only player i can see getting better when he hits balls." when mark was unstopable there for about a year or so, i was at the bycycle club one morning early on a weekday..... mark was there in the stands.... when the early round matches ended he was trying to match uo with the philipinos..... god i didnt even know what i was witnessing at the time..... but they werent wanting to give him really anything, and he wasnt playing even.... and he had great arguments as to why he shouldnt play them even. off topic now, but the filipinos are just too smart.... i always saw efren either a) shoot one or maybe 2 barrels b) play a guy that will go off all night c) stay away from a guy like mark tad.

but on topic..... pool is a sport where you actually dont have to play better than anyone to be the "best" on any day. loose table, new cloth, how good do you have to be to run 3, lay down a good safety and say run 3 more in a race to 9. now you got an amazing chance to win, i dont care who you are playing.... and you can get to that level with tenacity. its not like golf, where u must let tiger shoot the 18 holes too. in that case tenacity may get you nowhere.
 
softshot said:
the only talent you need is the talent to work harder than everyone else...and and the talent to learn from everyone you meet
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dam good comment..rep to you for that is the truth of the matter at hand.

Determination, drive, work and the ability to learn from anyone and anything in an open fashion.........

-Grey Ghost
 
This book has been mentioned before on the forums but it is definitely relative to this thread. Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. It's an interesting look at "Talent" as it pertains to certain sports or activities. The jest of the book (good or bad) is that it's not about talent but hard work and deliberate practice. The book also brings up the idea that the real "Talent" may be the tenacity or desire to be the best as the real "secret" to why some become champions.
 
A little research

This thread generated some really interesting responses. I thought it might be useful to look up the precise definitions of these two words. Here's Merriam-Webster on the definitions:


Talent

a : any of several ancient units of weight b : a unit of value equal to the value of a talent of gold or silver
2
archaic : a characteristic feature, aptitude, or disposition of a person or animal
3
: the natural endowments of a person
4
a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude b : general intelligence or mental power : ability
5
: a person of talent or a group of persons of talent in a field or activity

Tenacity: The quality of being tenacious.

OK, then:

Definition of TENACIOUS
1
a : not easily pulled apart : cohesive <a tenacious metal> b : tending to adhere or cling especially to another substance <tenacious burs>
2
a : persistent in maintaining, adhering to, or seeking something valued or desired <a tenacious advocate of civil rights> <tenacious negotiators> b : retentive <a tenacious memory>
— te·na·ci·ous·ly adverb
— te·na·cious·ness noun

Does this clear it all up?
 
I talked with a retired pro just the other day and he said when he practiced and missed a ball, he would say to himself that he didn't want to make it or he would have. Then shot the same shot over and over until he did make it every time. Thats tenacity. OTOH he also has the stroke that i will never have, no matter how much i practice. That's the difference between a pro and your average guy.
 
softshot said:
the only talent you need is the talent to work harder than everyone else...and and the talent to learn from everyone you meet
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It's pretty to think so. . . but it's not realistic. At least not beyond a certain level of accomplishment.

Allen Hopkins ran ten balls the first time that he stepped to a table. Greg Norman was a scratch golfer a year after he took up the game.

Hard work and an open mind will likely get you to a respectable level of proficiency in pool, or in golf. But you won't play like Hopkins or Norman without a large measure of innate ability.
 
There's no such thing as a pro athlete with no talent. They all have varying degrees of talent. The classic comparison is Mattingly versus Strawberry. So what was everyone saying(even Mattingly btw, who said "If I had Strawberry's talent),,that Mattingly had no talent???

The other extreme are the losers who waste their talent, like Chris Washburn or Derrick Coleman, who are shown as examples of what you are defining as unrealized potential. As if you're either one or the other and there's no one in between.

What I have seen is that almost all pros get there because they did have drive, and the superstars had more will than others(besides more talent). But to magnify one at the expense of the other is nonsense. Kobe, Bird, and Jordan are/were incredibly driven. How can one demarcate where talent ends and drive begins?

It takes TALENT to be great....flat out. It takes will to carry it further. But the talent sees things the driven can never see. I'll take talent. For every talent that is wasted, there is 1000x talent-LESS who bang their heads because no matter how much they try, they never can. Talent is FAR LESS common.
 
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LAlouie said:
There's no such thing as a pro athlete with no talent.
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You make a great point here, Louie. What often gets lost in conversations like this is that even the "grinders"-- pro athletes who are seen as less talented than their peers, and who succeed through determination and hard work-- have physical gifts that are several standard deviations above the average. It is only when measured against their even-more-gifted peers that these players are seen as lacking in talent.
 
For heaven's sakes, what kind of "talent" is required to play pool? You only need to move your arm from the elbow down; and the balls are sitting still when you start.

People who claim that "natural ability" is required to get to the top level are just making excuses for lack of dedication, desire, and knowledge; or are one of the many victims of unorthodox technique. Don't say you "couldn't" get to a top level, just admit you didn't want it enough. JMO.
 
ChazL said:
It's pretty to think so. . . but it's not realistic. At least not beyond a certain level of accomplishment.

Allen Hopkins ran ten balls the first time that he stepped to a table. Greg Norman was a scratch golfer a year after he took up the game.

Hard work and an open mind will likely get you to a respectable level of proficiency in pool, or in golf. But you won't play like Hopkins or Norman without a large measure of innate ability.
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keep telling yourself that..

let me ask you this...

Does Mika have more talent than Shane??

Does Archer have more talent than Strickland??

could it be that all four have mastered the game and are capable of beating the other 3 on any given day?

that last one seems more realistic doesn't it?

if there are multiple people who have all mastered the the same skill .. then there is simply no reason why you or I can't be one of them.

I'm doing the work to get there.. are you?
 
Williebetmore said:
For heaven's sakes, what kind of "talent" is required to play pool? You only need to move your arm from the elbow down; and the balls are sitting still when you start.

People who claim that "natural ability" is required to get to the top level are just making excuses for lack of dedication, desire, and knowledge; or are one of the many victims of unorthodox technique. Don't say you "couldn't" get to a top level, just admit you didn't want it enough. JMO.
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OK, WBM, I'd accept that except for one thing: You're among the most addicted players on this board. Love your posts, love your enthusiasm for the game, but I've seen you play a few times in AZ Room at DCC (you set it up, right?), and you don't come close to being a top player. And you've got a basement room, so you can play as much as free time allows. That's how most top players advance to the top, so they can do it full time.

No offense intended, just sayin'.
 
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9BallPaul said:
OK, WBM, I'd accept that except for one thing: You're among the most addicted players on this board. Love your posts, love your enthusiasm for the game, but I've seen you play a few times in AZ Room at DCC (you set it up, right?), and you don't come close to being a top player. And you've got a basement room, so you can play as much as free time allows. That's how most top players advance to the top, so they can do it full time.

No offense intended, just sayin'.
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9BP,
I'm not positive what your point is; I've never said I'm a "top player" (though certainly intend to get as good as I can in one hour a day, 5 days a week - and I would quit immediately if I didn't think I was continuously progressing -I've only been at it for 6 years, and seriously for a year and a half).

I've made it a point to cultivate the views of some of the best players in the world. So far I think every one of them would be insulted by any insinuation that they achieved their level thru talent rather than hard work.

Even Earl Strickland who appears to have great "natural talent" scoffed at the idea that there was any player who has hit as many balls as he, or studied the game harder than he. I think his exact words were something like, "I've missed more balls than any of those other guys will ever pocket." His "natural" and flowing stroke are a product of years of work, not of some genetic gift. I admire him for THAT, not for some gift he was given at birth.

Having said all of that, some players will progress a bit faster than others with equal work; but I think the sky is the limit for all of us (Mark Wilson's opinion as well). Most instructors I've spoken with report that the "talented athletes" are usually early dropouts in pool - it is much more difficult than they assume initially, and they are used to much faster progress than is possible with pool.
 
Williebetmore said:
9BP,
I'm not positive what your point is; I've never said I'm a "top player" (though certainly intend to get as good as I can in one hour a day, 5 days a week - and I would quit immediately if I didn't think I was continuously progressing -I've only been at it for 6 years, and seriously for a year and a half).

I've made it a point to cultivate the views of some of the best players in the world. So far I think every one of them would be insulted by any insinuation that they achieved their level thru talent rather than hard work.

Even Earl Strickland who appears to have great "natural talent" scoffed at the idea that there was any player who has hit as many balls as he, or studied the game harder than he. I think his exact words were something like, "I've missed more balls than any of those other guys will ever pocket." His "natural" and flowing stroke are a product of years of work, not of some genetic gift. I admire him for THAT, not for some gift he was given at birth.

Having said all of that, some players will progress a bit faster than others with equal work; but I think the sky is the limit for all of us (Mark Wilson's opinion as well). Most instructors I've spoken with report that the "talented athletes" are usually early dropouts in pool - it is much more difficult than they assume initially, and they are used to much faster progress than is possible with pool.
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You be right, WBM. Rep sent.
 
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