tangent line

Position Play

One thing to compliment Patrick's and Jaden's responses, along with others that posted is to mention another important item. I use this extensively in position play and has helped my game earlier in the learning process.

To simplify, When a cue ball is hit softly with follow, it will follow a path that corresponds precisely with the cut angle of the shot.

So when you are aiming the OB to shoot it into the pocket, the same angle going into the shot will be the same angle leaving the shot. This can be effective on shots from about a 10 degree cut up to 40 degrees. You can use this to determine if balls are in the way of your position route, or, if the need of side spin is needed after hitting the rail to achieve the desired result.

Hope this helps.
 
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clarification on experimentation

klockdoc said:
One thing to compliment Patrick's and Jaden's responses, along with others that posted is to mention another important item. I use this extensively in position play and has helped my game earlier in the learning process.

To simplify, When a cue ball is hit softly with follow, it will follow a path that corresponds precisely with the cut angle of the shot.

So when you are aiming the OB to shoot it into the pocket, the same angle going into the shot will be the same angle leaving the shot. This can be effective on shots from about a 10 degree cut up to 40 degrees. You can use this to determine if balls are in the way of your position route, or, if the need of side spin is needed after hitting the rail to achieve the desired result.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I have been experimenting.

The tangent line helps me to predict the trajectory of the CB after I make the shot. This helps me to choose a shot sequence which will improve my position &/or break clusters. Very helpful. However, I can only effect the trajectory with English which takes effect only when the CB hits the rail.

Am I missing anything?
 
berlowmj said:
I have been experimenting.

The tangent line helps me to predict the trajectory of the CB after I make the shot. This helps me to choose a shot sequence which will improve my position &/or break clusters. Very helpful. However, I can only effect the trajectory with English which takes effect only when the CB hits the rail.

Am I missing anything?
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Follow or draw affect CB path whether or not it hits a rail. Sidespin only affects CB path when it hits a rail. (Edit: So you're not confused by other comments, this applies to "the trajectory of the CB after I make the shot", as you said. Swerve, of course, will affect the path of the CB before it hits the OB.)

pj
chgo
 
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berlowmj said:
I have been experimenting.

The tangent line helps me to predict the trajectory of the CB after I make the shot. This helps me to choose a shot sequence which will improve my position &/or break clusters. Very helpful. However, I can only effect the trajectory with English which takes effect only when the CB hits the rail.

Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...

Due to the height of the rails on most tables, the vast majority of shots the cue has at least a slight downward angle. The combination of side (english) and a downward cue angle will produce some amount of swerve.

Therefore, if you assume that the CB path will be affected when using side english, you will be correct in nearly all cases.

This has been written on extensively but here is a quote from a Bob Jewett article

"Swerve is affected by several other things. It goes up as more spin is used, but stick elevation and the use of draw will also increase the amount of curve you see. Since the curve takes time to develop, if you shoot hard, swerve is reduced. Most players elevate more than they need to, and all players elevate the stick on nearly every shot. Getting the stick flatter is a good way to reduce the guess work when using side spin."

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett1.htm


However, it is also true that such swerve is often miniscule and does not necessarily cause the CB to veer outside the available error margin so the above knowledge does not always have a practical application.

However, the assumption that side english only influences CB direction off a rail isn't correct regarding nearly all shots utilizing side.

Regards,
Jim
 
Using top or bottom english, follow or draw, will greatly affect the tangent line. Try it.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You can't control where a thread goes - it has a life of its own.
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That's not true. It will start off skidding in a straight line, then there will be a collision, and from then on it will always fly off at exact right angles to the original post. It's just physics.
 
JimS said:
Using top or bottom english, follow or draw, will greatly affect the tangent line. Try it.
Click to expand...
What you mean is you can force the cueball forward of or backward of the tangent line after impact. The tangent line itself is never affected, and the cueball follows it after impact always in every instance, even if only momentarily.
 
funny you should say that....

Jude Rosenstock said:
When I read all these responses, I read them with Cliff Clavin's voice in mind.

Thought you should know.
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That used to be my nickname, because I would always come up with all of this useless knowledge with all of my friends. Well, not always useless, but information that most people just wouldn't have any reason to know, and no matter what the subject I would usually know something about it...
 
Tangent line is the imaginary line between the back of the head and the bottom of the steering wheel.
Or middle of the car's headroom.
 
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Jude Rosenstock said:
When I read all these responses, I read them with Cliff Clavin's voice in mind.

Thought you should know.
Click to expand...

That sounds like the Church Lady. Long as we're being candid.

pj
chgo
 
Jaden said:
I wasn't saying that Jay was emphasizing anything with the statement. I do think that he meant that the less spin you use the better able to control the CB and the more consistent you'll be. Of course there are exceptions, but in most cases you WILL be more consistent using less english. I use some side spin on most shots, so I am not one to talk, but it works for me and I understand that I could be more consistent, negligably IMO, if I were to use less spin and rely more on natural shape. There are some cases where you can't get the shape you may need, but you should only use the extreme spins when either the safety is just as difficult as the shot, or the next shot is not makeable at all without using extreme English for shape.

I also stated that I was giving basic information and that I could write about it in 200 pages, I was not being facitious. I literally could write 200 pages about the tangent line and the things that interact with utilizing it. Yes, on slow shots or hard shots side spin can and does affect the line coming off of the ball, and from greater than certain angles, collision induced throw will have some affect in lessening the angle as well. If everyone wants I can go into extreme detail as to what I believe is going on and the ways that you can use the tangent line and adjust for various items.

I use the tangent line for kicking and it works great for me. People will watch me line up for a difficult kick and then kick it in and walk up to me and ask me what I was doing. When I reply that I was looking at the tangent line, most people say ok and move on. These are sometimes strong players that don't go any farther in asking what I'm doing than to hear that I am looking at the tangent line. Some may know the benefit of doing so and some may not, but most overlook it.

I would have to go into great detail about many a subject to explain what I'm doing that allows my kicks to be so accurate. The basic thing I do though is look at the tangent line. The Tangent can be extremely useful in more ways than one is all I'm saying.
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Jaden,
Please remind me about kicking and the tangent line when you hit town. Always looking for new information to improve my game.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
I will....

JoeyA said:
Jaden,
Please remind me about kicking and the tangent line when you hit town. Always looking for new information to improve my game.
Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

I will, but you probably won't need me to. The first time I have to kick, you;ll see me lining up on it the way I do and wonder to yourself, WTF is he doing? and then you'll remember this thread and ask me.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You can think of the tangent line as the "90 degree rule" - the CB caroms (ricochets) off the OB at 90 degrees to the OB's path when hit with stun (no follow or draw). Others have described this "rule" in more detail - I want to mention another one that's almost as useful: the "30 degree rule".

When the CB hits the OB about half full (a half ball hit) and rolling naturally, it will take a path off the OB at 30 degrees to the CB's original direction (the same angle the OB takes in the opposite direction). Most people can estimate this angle roughly by spreading their index and middle fingers as far apart as possible. [INTERESTING NOTE: After a naturally rolling half ball hit, the CB and OB will travel about the same distances.]

There are other similar methods for estimating the CB's path after hitting an OB at any angle. Look through Bob Jewett's articles in Billiards Digest to learn them.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

If you don't mind, Pat, please copy and paste your entire post onto the thread I started Important things to remember when playing pool. These two things you posted can alter a person's game a great deal. It would pay for any person who doesn't know about these two items to look into it further. Trust me, they're BIG.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
berlowmj said:
Please provide an explanation &/or citation for the "tangent line" method of achieving position.
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A lot of useful information has been posted here on the vitally important subject of the tangent line.

To avoid confusion, as another poster pointed out, the tangent line itself doesn't change because it is an exact, geometric value consisting of the right angle to the line of centers between two balls in contact with each other.

It is the OB's tracking on, ahead of or behind the tanget line that is subject to control by the shooter.

And to further avoid confusion, "trajectory" and "path" are synonymous so there is no purpose served by drawing distinctions between the two terms.

Regards,
Jim
 
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Boro Nut said:
What you mean is you can force the cueball forward of or backward of the tangent line after impact. The tangent line itself is never affected, and the cueball follows it after impact always in every instance, even if only momentarily.
Click to expand...

Quite right. I spoke imprecisely.
 
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