I would more compare it to choosing to turn the light on and off when you enter and leave the room instead of just leaving it on all day.
Tapering. CNC vs lathe...
- Thread starter Kim Bye
- Start date
I agree Chris.
I use 2 manual saw tapering machines. One for shafts and one for butts. I also like horsepower and blade mass when using the sharp 10" saw blades like a router to taper.
Load a piece, touch off, dial in .010 and hit the half nut in less than 20 seconds. You can't boot your computer up that fast. I can walk away and the E Stop shuts them down in just over six minutes. My DC controllers on the lathe and travel function give me the vernier control I need with my dialed in trimmer pots. I use dc motors that are perfect for my torque and speed requirements. They can run all day long and do not get hot at all.
When taking taper turns on the butt with cured epoxy inlays installed at .020 over filnal for example, I can easily take light passes on those elevated inlays until they flush in specific sections of the cue, then take full passes down to finish taper elevations. Having manual control over those slight adjustments on the Z is just too easy with positive feedback in real time with hand/eye skills.
Also establishing initial shaft tapers on 1" dowel is very easy on a manual machine by starting at 1/3 then 1/2 then 3/4 ending with the full taper by sliding the frame and dialing down to known indicator pre sets on the Z dial.
I have cut many shafts and trued many 30" straight dowels on my CNC. I still true my 30" laminated dowels on the CNC to a certain dia., then manually offset the Y Axis to land my last two passes with the DRO and micrometer to verify readings. I only do Billiard shaft tapers on the CNC. I don't do too many per year and they are shorter than my 29" finished shaft length.
Using the CNC to cut shafts and butts is a great way to do it but I prefer the faster set up and start up of the manual saw machines and my custom made taper bars. As far as cut times are concerned I like slow 6 to 7 minute passes. That time is irrelevant to me as I am not there watching the water boiling. I am working elsewhere in my shop and when the machine shuts off I just load in the next piece or dial the Z down another .010. Less than 20 seconds.
Everyone has their own approach, mine is manual.
I can see why Royce needs to use the CNC for doing all of the different tapers for all his shafts order. Makes very good sense to store the spreadsheet programs and use them that way.
In the final analysis, I have my own modern pro and super pro tapers. I really don't want to make shafts for other people's cues so having a bunch of tapers on the computer files is a mute point to me.
No one cares about how you built their shafts. All they are concerned with is a great final product.
There is an old saying in the marine profession. "Don't tell me how rough the seas are Captain, just put the ship in the harbor." Just deliver perfect shafts, I say, how you get their is your business. LOL
This has been a great thread with a lot of good info shared.
Rick
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JC
Coos Cues
If someone is sufficiently impressed with the way your shafts play they can use a dial caliper and a CNC machine and spit one out in about 15 minutes including writing the code.
Has anyone done this to your knowledge? If not, why?
JC
There is no such thing as a proprietary taper .
You can't own a taper. Anyone can copy it .
Hell, probably all of us just have a modified taper of the past makers .
Some have copied SW's taper to the tee using a CNC.
Heck, DPK has the numbers for his taper in his journal.
If I had the room, I'd get a 12 by 36 metal lathe and convert it to a cnc taperer.
I have two manual tapering machines now ( Prewitt and Taper Shaper ).
Both are good in what they do.
Imo there is no correct shaft taper . It'll all preference. And different shaft woods work better in different tapers . Take a soft one and give a "pro-taper", you'll probably have a noodle. Take a really stiff and heavy kind and give it a conical taper, it'll probably be too stiff.
Nowadays , I think a 2MM taper to the middle of the shaft is considered a stiff taper .
You can't own a taper. Anyone can copy it .
Hell, probably all of us just have a modified taper of the past makers .
Some have copied SW's taper to the tee using a CNC.
Heck, DPK has the numbers for his taper in his journal.
If I had the room, I'd get a 12 by 36 metal lathe and convert it to a cnc taperer.
I have two manual tapering machines now ( Prewitt and Taper Shaper ).
Both are good in what they do.
Imo there is no correct shaft taper . It'll all preference. And different shaft woods work better in different tapers . Take a soft one and give a "pro-taper", you'll probably have a noodle. Take a really stiff and heavy kind and give it a conical taper, it'll probably be too stiff.
Nowadays , I think a 2MM taper to the middle of the shaft is considered a stiff taper .
JC
Coos Cues
You own the material your bars are made out of and that's it. That is not the definition of proprietary. It's called personal property. A different concept totally.
JC
That analogy doesn't make any sense at all (to me). Is the manual shaft machine supposed to be the equivalent of leaving the light on all day, or switching ti on and off as needed?
TW
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The manual machine turns itself completely off using no power until I come back to it. The computer stays on until I come back. So the computer is like leaving the light on all day when no one is in the room.
Yeah, those computers really like to spin the electric meter when they're in standby mode. And you always have to worry about wearing them out from being left on. The one I use to run my tapering machine is an original IBM XT, manufactured in 1983. Even after a good 20,000+ hours of operation over the 25 years I've had it it's still running strong - but you just know one of these days it's gonna bite the dust....
TW
Not sure you really mean "positive feedback" ... perhaps just "feedback" is more accurate.
This reminds me of a professors explanation of positive versus negative feedback :
Imagine you are driving a car at 60 MPH. The drivers seat is on ball bearings, not locked into position.
Now imagine you push down the gas pedal ... the car accelerates and your drivers seat rolls back and your foot comes off the gas pedal thereby counteracting your action. This is "negative feedback".
Now imagine touching the brake pedal
This is "positive feedback" :grin:Dave
A CNC tapering machine can cut wrap grooves on finished cues .
No matter what the taper is ( so long as it's not a fkk'd-up taper ).
Not so easy with taper bars.
No matter what the taper is ( so long as it's not a fkk'd-up taper ).
Not so easy with taper bars.
But Joey, who else offers a taper that is mute?? All the ones I know of talk like gossiping washer women.
Dale(Mo, Moo, Moot)
Joey,
Real easy once you do a few.
I cut my wrap elevation cuts on my saw machine mirroring my butt taper.
I cut the last 1/4" on each side and the step with a two fluke router while engage to my matching manual bar on my lathe. 5 mins set up to finish.
I was thinking about using my CNC but it is just too easy on my taper set up.
And I have a sweeping curved taper geometry on my butt from the cap end to the a joint also not just a straight one.
Rick
That's not rocket science. It's your own cue.
What if you need a wrap groove on a cue that has a joint screw already
and does not have a curved taper?
Oh in that case, nightmare if not straight taper.
My Super Max CNC has a 50 amp 20 HP Rotary Phase converter that runs the whole time it is on and yes it spins the power meter. And the Air compressor has to be on the whole time also. But we were comparing a computer to a light bulb. You made the light bulb/ candle analogy. I just showed you the benefit of turning it off when it stops. So far I cannot remember being able to get you to admit one advantage manual tapering machines have over CNC and guess I never will. Not even the fact they save electricity.
Believe me, I'm not holding out on you just to be stubborn. It would be extremely easy to get me to admit ALL advantages that manual tapering machines have over CNC... if there were any. As a category, of course. In any specific case, such as your need to run a 50 amp rotary phase converter in order to power your machine, there may very well be an advantage... for you. But in general practice (rather than unusual cases), manual tapering machine do not offer any advantages over CNC.
I didn't address your one point, that you can turn your manual machine off when you are done using it, but I do exactly that when I am done using mine too. It takes but a couple minutes to boot up, and I always plan far enough ahead that I need not twiddle my thumbs while it's doing so. When I'm done cutting I just hit the main power block and it turns off the entire machine instantly with one switch - which is why I still run it using a "cold-boot" friendly IBM XT.
This CNC machine - which I consider representative of any average CNC tapering machine - can turn pretty much anything I want with extreme ease. I can run any taper, cut round stock of any needed length and/or diameter, turn ferrules down from ivory blocks, trim joint rings, flush-cut inlays... and all that it requires to change from butts to shafts to ferrules to core stock is loading the appropriate program. No need to change out taper bars, or lock on a fixed diameter, or manually reset for the next pass, or... From cold boot to ready to cut anything takes but a few moments.
So, Chris, if you want to keep listing the advantages that typical manual tapering machines have over typical CNC turning machines, I will be happy to explain as clearly as I can why you are mistaken. In the very unlikely event you describe an operation that actually IS better done on a manual machine I will gladly admit you are right. So far, however, you have not managed to meet that criteria.
TW
Chris,
Can you cut ebony parts and pockets faster than 20 ipm on your supermax with a .0313 mill. Just Curious.
Rick
BTW, getting back to the OP's inquiry. There is no better, it is all about preference and what work you offer in yours shop. If you want to do a ton of different tapers CNC is the way to go. If you are a custom cue maker making your specific tapers, manual may be your preference.
We should all learn to share info on this forum in the form of opinions between peers. Disagreements are very healthy but should be respectful. If we all follow the rules, harmony will prevail. Everyone wins.
To all here:
For my money says, hanging around here since 07 as a member and 04 as a lurker:
There is no man that has contributed more information or has been more helpfull to more people here than Mr. Hightower based on good old fashion practical experience. A giant in our industry with class and grace in spades.
When Chris has an opinion, it is completely valid at least 99.9 % of the time. IMHO
Sorry Chris, nobody's perfect!
There is a ton of very usefull information in this thread to think about both "for" CNC and manual taper bars! There does not need to be an "against".
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