TAR 25 and the forums
- Thread starter Neil
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Not to make your whole post mute, but just to clarify, what I said was said without a thought about Justin or TAR, but about pro pool in general.
I think the word you're looking for is "moot," not mute. And I don't think dispelling the connection between what you wrote, versus what Justin posted in one of those very threads that supposedly drove you to create this thread, is moot. For one thing, I'm sure I'm not the only one that instantly got that impression by the way you worded it. There's plenty of fodder in your post to respond to, so I'm sure you know I wouldn't have wasted my time in responding only to that piece, if I didn't think it were worth it to point out the strange "coincidence."
-Sean
Excellent post, Sean. Fortunately, Neil's viewpoints appear to be in the minority.
The conduct of the two players in this match was an embarrassment to our sport. The fans are right to expect that both players conduct themselves as professionals. The TAR promotor, Justin, is doing the right thing by instituting rules of conduct backed up by fines.
If pool is going to get itself out of the gutter, it's going to have to elevate its game on all levels. Demanding that the players conduct themselves as professionals is a good start.
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Here's one for you- if you are going to do a commentary about a thread, at least read it first.
Well Neil, I did read your original post ...
You said: "I didn't get to watch the match, wish I could have. The updates on the match were next to non-existent."
...but yet you are so well informed about how it all went down.
I think having players sign a player agreement isd a great idea. If that's what it takes for these players to act like professionals so be it. Did they poney up their own money??? Did they pay for their flight??? Did they have a free tikcket to get 10k??
Everybody knows the answer to these questions. Problem is all of this way put on or backed by Justin, not the players. Both players were invited into justin's home (so to speak) and both acted like asses (as far as I read) in his home.
Justin is the one that really is taking a hit here. What if his DVD sales suffer because of this??? Will people be hesitate to order the next TAR event?? I really don't know but he very well could lose money due to others behavior. Of course I think everything will be fine but as a business person you need tol be careful whom you book for your shows. They directly are YOUR SHOW!!
Justin you're a great man for doing what yhoure doing for pool. These guys should be thanking you that they can play at the studio. I would give both my nuts tol have a shot that these guys get and ill tell you this... I would be a complete professional the entire time
Everybody knows the answer to these questions. Problem is all of this way put on or backed by Justin, not the players. Both players were invited into justin's home (so to speak) and both acted like asses (as far as I read) in his home.
Justin is the one that really is taking a hit here. What if his DVD sales suffer because of this??? Will people be hesitate to order the next TAR event?? I really don't know but he very well could lose money due to others behavior. Of course I think everything will be fine but as a business person you need tol be careful whom you book for your shows. They directly are YOUR SHOW!!
Justin you're a great man for doing what yhoure doing for pool. These guys should be thanking you that they can play at the studio. I would give both my nuts tol have a shot that these guys get and ill tell you this... I would be a complete professional the entire time
Niel, not my favorite response of yours
I agree with Spanky79 and PoolSharkAllen, we are trying to promote the sport, not destroy it.
To say that behavior doesn't matter is ludicrous.
How else is pool going to make it?
JohnnyT say's the sharking was like cheating.
We need the mom's and pop's out there to let their young kids play pool.
They are the future of our sport.
Us old timers have screwed up the sport.
As evidence by the low tournament payouts.
Dennis won $3K yesterday for beating Shane, that was a shame.
At TAR the winner won more, Great Job Justin !!!!!
I agree with Spanky79 and PoolSharkAllen, we are trying to promote the sport, not destroy it.
To say that behavior doesn't matter is ludicrous.
How else is pool going to make it?
JohnnyT say's the sharking was like cheating.
We need the mom's and pop's out there to let their young kids play pool.
They are the future of our sport.
Us old timers have screwed up the sport.
As evidence by the low tournament payouts.
Dennis won $3K yesterday for beating Shane, that was a shame.
At TAR the winner won more, Great Job Justin !!!!!
So where do you draw the line Neil? Is it OK for a player to start purposely coughing in the backstroke of their opponent? Is it OK for them to sit there and yack on a cell phone loudly about their opponent while that opponent is shooting? Is it OK for a player to start doing jumping jacks right in line of the opponents shot? Do you have a line or are you of the mind that pool should be anything goes?
Do you want the game to devolve to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LrKoj4Xx2rk
And if there IS something where you yourself go "well now that is going too far!" then your arguement is nothing more then the "amount" of sharking that should be allowed and what goes too far in your opinion varies from the amount of sharking that should be tolerated in other peoples opinion.
To me you cannot have some grey fuzzy line on this, sharking should simply not be allowed because it is impossible to police something so subjective as "proper levels of sharking". Sharking should not be a determining factor in a match, I want to see two people play pool, not idiocy like the above video or more subtle practices aimed at creating the same effect. You say a player should be able to play through sharking, I say a player should not need to shark an opponent in order to win and if they cannot win without sharking they should lose.
Neil, this is what you don't get. If these 2 guys would of acted like professionals in the first place, there would be no drama to talk about and all that would of been talked about is the way they plays.
That is the whole problem. Do act like a fool and you acting like a fool won't be talked about. Sit down, shut up, and play and that is all there will be to talk about.
Well, it was just a coincidence. As to the spelling error, I knew I made it as soon as I hit submit. But, I didn't see the need to change it as I knew someone else would nitpick it for me.
Ah yes, one last hurrah. But the intelligencia part of you appreciates when someone points out when you're using the wrong word repeatedly, especially if, as you say, you "know" as soon as you submit it.
-Sean
Precisely. The fans of a sport will talk about what it is the players give them to talk about. When you talk about Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Roger Federer, Pete Sampras, you tend to talk about how they played the game. When you hear of John McEnroe, John Daly, and of late Tiger Woods you hear as much about the "other stuff" because that other stuff is what they offered up to be talked about.
People used to talk about the wild boy antics of Ronnie O'Sullivan, but after a classily played World Championship win all you will read about him of late is his amazing rise to the top again and great form and play.
Hatch himself had everyone on this forum commending his excellent play after his first Mosconi Cup, because his playing and heart is what stood out at that time. Now they are talking about his antics and how instead of showing his heart he showed another part of his anatomy this last weekend. That is what is discussed because that is what he offered up to be discussed.
Nor should you or any other opponent have to. That is what strict tournament rules should be in place to do, as TAR has mentioned bringing into being and which you keyed in on and went after in your original post. No opponent should have to worry about telling a player to sit down, telling a player to stop waving his cue around, telling a player to get off his cell phone, that should be strictly dealt with in the tournament rules and enforced by the ref and/or tournament director VERY quickly and with sever repercussions for ignoring the rules to begin with.
Stuff like that simply does not happen much anymore in snooker and never has because they have always been quick to nip this stuff in the bud and make sure that the players guilty of these things realized just how serious the sport was that these types of antics would NOT be tolerated. Unfortunately pool has never taken the same firm stance and really tried to get this under control, and admittedly it is alot harder to do without a single tour and professional body with a single rule set.
It should NEVER be left to a player to police his opponents unsportsmanlike activities, that should be dealt with by the refs and TD's and it SHOULD be done because asking the opponent to "simply put up with it" is in fact even more wrong.
Its blatantly unsportsmanlike behavior like yours that perpetuate the poor image that pool has. With the little head games that you play, you've all but admitted that you cheat.
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Not to make your whole post mute, but just to clarify, what I said was said without a thought about Justin or TAR, but about pro pool in general.
Well, it was just a coincidence. As to the spelling error, I knew I made it as soon as I hit submit. But, I didn't see the need to change it as I knew someone else would nitpick it for me.
Ah yes, one last hurrah. But the intelligencia part of you appreciates when someone points out when you're using the wrong word repeatedly, especially if, as you say, you "know" as soon as you submit it.
-Sean
LOL Sean
Poor Neil...
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I didn't get an opportunity to watch this match, but if the promoter (Justin) wasn't happy with the behavior, that's obviously a problem. Frankly, whether viewers were happy or not with their antics is a secondary concern to how the sponsors feel about it. Sponsors provide money, and neither challenge matches nor tournaments are going to happen without money. Attracting bigger sponsors and the corresponding bigger wallets to the game is the only way to elevate the game so the best players in the world can make a decent living at it, and most potential sponsors with deep pockets will want nothing to do with a sport that allows its players to behave poorly, particularly during "televised" competition. Shame, too, as I think Dennis and Mike each have engaging personalities that could come across great to more mainstream audiences. Dennis was terrific during the Mosconi Cup a couple years back (as someone already mentioned).
All that said, I know it's a lot of pressure on these guys when they're trying to scrape out a living, and that can bring out some frustration and dialogue that might not happen in just daily life, but it's still not what American pool needs.
All that said, I know it's a lot of pressure on these guys when they're trying to scrape out a living, and that can bring out some frustration and dialogue that might not happen in just daily life, but it's still not what American pool needs.