TAR and its future...(dosent look good IMO)

[JAM]

I don't like watching girls play, no offense

if SVB, Pagulayan, Orcollo, Alcano, and the other big name players would play on PPV i would buy the live stream.

Have Filipinos play i would pay to watch that. of course im biased and i love rooting for my country men. mabye thats what TAR needs to do. I buy and watch for the fact that i have Favorites that i want to win. People always buy tickets to games when they are rooting for thier team to win.

This post right here perhaps explains it best. Of course, we all enjoy rooting for the home team. I say USA, all the way, but I still love seeing my Filipino friends win, if it can't be an American.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, at the risk of inviting the pool detective(s) and his multiple-identitied troll on this thread to flame me with vulgarities.

The existing lot of American professional pool players is dwindling, UNLIKE our brethren of pro players in Philippines.

Soon most professional-caliber tournaments in the States will be outsourced to other countries. The traditional American events, such as Glass City Open and Windy City Open and BCA "Invitational" Open, seem to have vanished in 2008 and 2009.

Recreational pool in the U.S. seems to be doing well, even though pool rooms are dying off by the dozens. Professional pool is on the bottom rung of the American pool ladder.

It is no wonder that there are quite a few of the American pool public who stereotype all American pros as scum of the earth, bums and hustlers, drug addicts and drunks, and not worthy of any respect, even though some of these very same pros have donated their time to charity events for FREE, all in an effort to promote pool in America. It seems to go unnoticed.

Though I thought Mike Sigel and Jim Rempe were jerks for not autographing an item at the DCC and the IPT KOTH, I understand fully today why they were reluctant. Some pros have autographed items for fans and pool enthusiasts, even when the pool items are given away for FREE at a cost to the American pro player, only to see them later up on eBay for auction.

American professional pool has no respect. This forum, the number-one site on the net, is reflective of what most think of professional pool. Some folks are quick to blame the pro players when, in essence, the truth of the matter is that professional pool is not popular in the States. Social shooters, bar bangers, and league players are what American pool has to offer, and where it shines brightest. I think that the regional tours offer the best bang for the buck. Of course, today, pros are not welcome anymore on some tours, emphasizing the fact that amateur play is stronger than professional play.

I see the PPV numbers on some pool events, and I have been to my share of pool tournaments around the United States. The numbers of the viewing audience is less than 100 most times. Even when they give it away for free, such as the Joss $25,000-added Turning Stone Casino tournaments, the stands remain empty. You'd be lucky to have 50 in the stands at the finals, even though it is FREE. Truth be told, at every single pro tournament I have been to, the majority of audience members are the pro players themselves who got knocked out, as well as the family and friends of the pro players. Professional pool just doesn't seem to draw new interest in the U.S., and it is evident when you see the numbers at American pro tournaments, PPV events, et cetera.

In sum, money ain't the issue. Mark Griffin, God bless him, cannot solely fund every single American pool entity, though he sure does try to help others, often never noticed I might add. He doesn't come on this forum all the time, begging for rep and praise.

The truth of the matter is there isn't a strong amount of pool folk to give a damn about professional pool in the United States, and there ain't any amount of money that can make it shine on American soil. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

The only key to pool's success in the U.S. is exactly what Mark Griffin is trying to promote right now, with the CSI structure. This invites non-pros to step up to the plate and aspire to win. It fosters a competitive spirit. It just may bring in some new blood, something which is sorely needed in the United States when it comes to pool. I support this effort 100 percent and refuse to pay tribute to any Johnny Come Lately, proverbial pied piper's hollow promises. I think Mark Griffin has it right. People with a demonstrated track record, such as Mark, just might make things happen for the better.

Do you know how many times this topic has been bought up on this forum in the past? I would say at least over a hundred, and it still stinks.

"The Pool Ingenue"

 

[gulfportdoc]

I was there and had worked things out with the Florida Pro tour to do the
mens event .Well after alot of thought I decided not to because I felt if I
did the mens event it would hurt the number of viewers TAR and the WPBA
would get .

That was an exceedingly classy thing for you to do, Matt! Your integrity puts you into a very rare group of guys. Ironically the Seminole event would have drawn vastly more viewers than did the ladies' event. Women's pool is boring. It's sole purpose is to allow sponsors their PC quota.

Doc

 

[TX Poolnut]

I didn't buy the WPBA PPV, but I did buy the UFC 91 PPV.

 

[JayBaltimore]

i bought both, but the UFC 91 match was ok...looking forward to the 92 with silvia taking on rashad evans, that's going to be one hell of a match!

 

[ShootingArts]

John, most do shop around

John,

As usual although our perspective is a little different we are mostly on the same page. I will point out one thing: While potential customers aren't likely to go from website to website checking who contributes the most to the sport they are likely to go to all or most of the websites shopping around. If other information is there fairly prominently they will see it. I do agree marketing is a tricky thing. When advertising grows stale it is ignored. When it is too gaudy it annoys. Hitting just the right tone to the majority of people is tricky.

I buy in circles. Sometimes they are real circles sometimes virtual. However, the bottom line is that I deal with the people that are likely to benefit me in return. I trade with the people that trade with me and I would rather buy something in my small town and feed my very local economy where my business might see some return than to order something from across the country. Of course at some point pricing and how an entity does business comes into play. I don't buy from the cheapest with a poor reputation for how they do business and I don't buy from a company that has a jerk manning the phones the first few times I call. I happily pay a little more for somebody I am comfortable doing business with and I support mom and pops over the big chains, local and nationwide. However I won't pay a huge surcharge for the same item and I find it annoying when I find any business making several hundred percent profit or more on an item.

Back to pool, we have a home and recreational game that is pretty healthy. We have a pro sport that is anything but healthy here in the US. We don't seem to have the ability to merge the two to the benefit of the pro sport.

Hu

LoL I do that a lot. Maybe I could campaign for president someday.



I think I mentioned the importance of this as well and explained why it's not happening (lack of matching marketing funds and lack of planning). Another reason why it doesn't happen is that it's tacky. You and I both know that a lot of people would be turned off by companies constantly showing off the amount of money they "donated".



Exactly. So how am I supposed to reach you if you look at all sponsors equally? If the event gives equal billing to each sponsor regardless of the amount that each sponsor put in then how are you going to know who did more and thus who to give your money to, using your example? And how would you get that information? Let's say that you decided to go to our website and we said that we donated $50,000 so the event. Would you then surf to all the others sponsor's websites and see if they listed what they spent on the event and then give your support to the one who spent the most? I don't see this being typical behavior for any consumer of anything. I think it's the very very very rare consumer that will do that much research before making a purchase. Not to mention that the information you are looking for probably won't be there. Nor is it likely to be verifiable either in any easy way. I doubt that the BCA will disclose the amount of money that Sterling and related brands paid for the sponsorship of the recent GenerationPool 9 Ball event in Charlotte.



There you have it. You get so bored that you not only don't support the companies who support pool - you consider the repetition to be tired and stop watching. Who wants to see Cuetec sponsoring an event for the umteenth time. Now I want to see a show of hands though. How many people have ever purchased or recommended a Cuetec cue JUST BECAUSE they put so much money back into pool? Anyone ever felt charitable enough to just buy a Cuetec anything to support a brand that has put a lot of money back into the game? No, it would be the gross minority of "real pool fans" who buy Cuetecs. Actually it goes the other direction and we spend a lot of time deriding them and suggesting to newbies who end up here asking about them, presumably through the national ads run on TV and the tournament sponsorships they do, that they are better off with something else and how clueless could one be to not know that.



Again here is the rub, if Sterling says that they put in $10,000 and Seyberts says nothing because of course they don't want to say they just put in $100, then half the people will assume that Seyberts did the same or more than Sterling and the other half may assume that Seyberts did less but close. And that's counting the people who care about such things which is very small.



Good point and in fact Sterling should do more of that. I am a firm believer in advertising your good deeds/relationships if you are in business. However that requires a marketing budget and dedicated people to stay on top of all that and this is something that most of the small companies in the "billion dollar" (not sure where this figure comes from) billiard industry lack.


I am sure that very few likely customers have any idea of what Sterling contributes to the sport on a yearly basis. Still I can tell you that there are companies who give almost nothing back and they enjoy great business. Why? Because they sell at lower prices and the money flows right out of the USA. I am not on a protectionist kick but I think that a lot less people really do care about who is supporting pool than you think. Again though it's a tricky thing to "market" how much you spend on sponsoring. It can be quite tacky and distasteful to a lot of people and you run the risk of getting into numbers wars where no one knows the truth anyway.



That seems illogical. Why not support them both at the same time? Even if TAR had some sort of a deal where the WPBA got to keep all the revenue it would still support TAR to have as many people buy the WPBA feed as possible to show the WPBA that TAR can bring the audience. It would have helped to get TAR the position of PPV provider for the WPBA.



The WPBA brings international recognition that pool exists as a professional sport and is not just a bar game. They have been the most consistent face of professional pool for 20 years.

You seem to be more inclined to weigh the levels of support before giving yours. I submit that most people, the vast majority aren't so inclined to do so. Those people are bombarded daily with requests for their attention and they don't have the time or inclination to look around and see who is "worthy" in an altruistic sense of their business. I submit that most of them go for either the most compelling pitch or the most repeated one.

 

[tigerseye]

It's hard to consider paying for this TAR match-ups when you can watch other pool sites for free....
I love to watch the match-ups on TAR... I think that they should have a little better videography though...Maybe place a camera over the table or something like that...change it up alittle...

 

[Nostroke]

It's hard to consider paying for this TAR match-ups when you can watch other pool sites for free....
I love to watch the match-ups on TAR... ..

I dont know that seems a bit contradictory if im understanding you. Maybe you should clarify that.

and yes there are free broadcasts but comparing some locals playing in a $500 addd tournament to a match like Alex/Shane-They are just uncomparable.

 

[tigerseye]

I dont know that seems a bit contradictory if im understanding you. Maybe you should clarify that.

and yes there are free broadcasts but comparing some locals playing in a $500 addd tournament to a match like Alex/Shane-They are just uncomparable.

I have watched Charlie Bryant and Archer the other week and they ar going to have the free live stream this week in Fayetteville for the GSBT 25,000 added event....
That is what i am speaking of....

 

[JCIN]

It's hard to consider paying for this TAR match-ups when you can watch other pool sites for free....
I love to watch the match-ups on TAR... I think that they should have a little better videography though...Maybe place a camera over the table or something like that...change it up alittle...

The thing about having a camera shooting straight down on the table is that the light blocks the camera. The way ESPN gets around that is to rig all of the lights and camera from aluminium trusses that they raise up with electric winches secured to the ceiling. I have yet to see a pool room with trussing and winches in place.

The only other way to do it is to build a structure around the table with trussing that you can then hang everything from.

So it basically comes down to this to get that camera angle safely:

Aluminum truss and hardware: About $5000

Insurance (for having heavy things hanging over peoples heads): Who knows how much $$$

Flourescent color balanced lights: $3100 each X 4= $12,400

So just figure $20K with all the bells and whistles.

Oh yeah, and a trailer to haul it all in.

Details are a b!tch.

I heard from Pat Fleming that he has about $300K into his set up. We have about $20,000 in ours. You can spend that on lights for video pretty easy or buy one lens for a HD camera. Video is a very expensive field.

We started out doing this with no knowledge of video at all. None. The learning curve is pretty steep. Add in the fact that everyting we do is live. No do overs, one chance to get it right or screw it up all while two guys are playing for a lot of money. We are constantly trying to improve our production values and will continue to do so within our financial means.

Of course I understand that the viewer really doesn't care about any of this. They just want to see a better or different view of the action and I understand that. Just wanted to say that we do think about these things.

 

[JayBaltimore]

I realize all things Tar does, is to the best of there budget and ability. i choose to pay for these match ups because there great matches, commentary is awesome, commentators answer to chat questions. i would gladly pay 20 bucks on TAR then to watch a free match between a couple of the same caliber players on another site anyday. What other sites can you be persoanl with the peopel that put on these events, what other sites can you ask in a chat room, "Shane what do you think about this?... how did you play that 5 ball?" TAR puts on the best matches by far in my opinion. what's better then watching a couple of guys going at it for thousend's of dollars. after there done, talk to them about the game and personal questions? The TAR community in the chat rooms are a great group of persoanl people that will talk to you about anything gladly. some great sweat bet's too!

I could go on forever why i supoort TAR over other "free" sites. but my bottom line is, the guys do the best they can for there viewers and supporters with what they have, they will do anything they possibly can. so why go anywhere else to watch these matches when you get so much with TAR?!

 

[JCIN]

I have watched Charlie Bryant and Archer the other week and they ar going to have the free live stream this week in Fayetteville for the GSBT 25,000 added event....
That is what i am speaking of....

And you have absolutely no idea who you are going to be watching or when.

There is a big difference between setting up a video camera and laptop at a tournament and getting the best players in the world to agree to a game, time, place and put up $10K each with multiple angles of coverage over several days with good quality of service.

If something goes wrong with a free broadcast you just chalk it up to ghosts in the machine or whatever. When people pay you better have it right. We have had our share of problems during PPV's and have the mental scars to prove it.

If it was up to me we would do everything for free. Our lives would be much simpler and more people would see the matches. Problem is that the hotel, gas, food and all the other bills have to get paid somehow. For now that means PPV. This industry is in the dumper. There are no hard cash sponsors and advertisers left. The ones who do put real money into the sport are already commited and we are the new kid on the block. I absolutely think there is a future and that when we make it through this down turn it will make us stronger for when times are good.

<------eternal optimist

 

[Tim-n-NM]

And you have absolutely no idea who you are going to be watching or when.

There is a big difference between setting up a video camera and laptop at a tournament and getting the best players in the world to agree to a game, time, place and put up $10K each with multiple angles of coverage over several days with good quality of service.

If something goes wrong with a free broadcast you just chalk it up to ghosts in the machine or whatever. When people pay you better have it right. We have had our share of problems during PPV's and have the mental scars to prove it.

If it was up to me we would do everything for free. Our lives would be much simpler and more people would see the matches. Problem is that the hotel, gas, food and all the other bills have to get paid somehow. For now that means PPV. This industry is in the dumper. There are no hard cash sponsors and advertisers left. The ones who do put real money into the sport are already commited and we are the new kid on the block. I absolutely think there is a future and that when we make it through this down turn it will make us stronger for when times are good.

<------eternal optimist

I think you guys are doing a good job for a fresh upstart. Hang in there !!
Optimist survive when the going get bad. You will survive, it just dont feel like it right now. The key is to never quit.
PS I love your product.;

 

[DeadPoked]

It's hard to consider paying for this TAR match-ups when you can watch other pool sites for free....
I love to watch the match-ups on TAR... I think that they should have a little better videography though...Maybe place a camera over the table or something like that...change it up alittle...

It's not hard for me to do. If it weren't for TAR there wouldn't be all of these streams around today. They were the poineers when it came to streaming pool matches as we know it today. The only way to get these guys around and cover their nut is by having the PPV for now. I gladly support these guys by paying for their PPV's and DVD's because I respect what they do and they are both great dudes. One of these days I hope something changes that will allow them to just stream it for free, but I don't see that happening for a while, if ever. Until that day I'll support TAR and promote them as much as I can.

 

[jimmy-leggs]

I love how people come on here and give thier idea's about pools survival,but they NEVER dig in their pockets to support it.They always want it free.You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
The TAR group gave us a first class ppv event this last weekend.Excellent lighting,angles,commentary was outstanding with ALL players.Hell,Allison Fisher had me in stitches on saturday night.Kristy Carter did an outstanding job considering the amount of hours she put in.You could ask all the questions in the world to all the pro's.
It was well worth the $20-$30.Thats coming from someone who lost their video and only got to see 10% of the matches(not their fault,my computer).But I still sat and listened to the commentary.
I guess what my point is,they gave a top notched ppv and still no one supported it.BOO to you.And when TAR goes away,don't come on here crying about people not supporting the pool industry.

 

[Chesscat]

It's funny, it has never occurred to me that TAR doesn't have great video. It seems great to me when I'm watching it. But the greatest thing about TAR, the incomparable thing, is the commentary, or rather the banter. The attraction of pool to me is the pool world. And with TAR, you are in the epicenter. When that girl played that dude for 3k out in Vegas, the amateur challenge match, I watched the whole 3 hours, because you had Ronnie Wiseman stopping by, I think Deschane was there, I'm not describing it very well but the feel of it was unique as far as participating in the pool world with guys like Chohan, Pagulayan, Scooter, whoever. The last broadcast I watched was Chohan vs. Justin Bergman. I quote TAR about Chohan being an APA 4, you just had to be there for that one. I don't know if TAR can make it, but the product they put out shouldn't be compared to say an Accustats DVD. Pat deserves a hell of a lot of credit too, but TAR is a very different product. To pay $20 to be in the epicenter of the pool world for a couple of hours, well that can only be done in the 21st century.