Target 9300 finish question

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7 Hills Cues

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Well, after a 2 year hiatus I'm finally getting back in the shop.. Due to space restrictions I had settled on the ca finish (i know all the reasons its not a good finish, believe me I've seen a lot of my cues years later now that are riddled with lift offs and spider webbing) but would like to try something else now.. I had bought some General 9300 WB finish some time ago to try out and used it on one cue but was unhappy with how hard it was.. Never seemed to get very hard, at least not as hard as I think a cue finish should so I went back to the CA. Not knowing if I had done something wrong, a few months ago I did a test on a piece of ebony I had laying around.. I went to the shop today and came across that piece of ebony.. I had dated it when I put the finish on and it has now been over 6 months.. I checked the hardness and I was still able to put my nail in the finish..
I have read about a cross-linker on another thread but the general opinion seemed to be that it didn't do a whole hell of a lot..
So my question is this.. Has anyone else experienced this problem using this product? Is it possible I just got a bad can (i doubt it cause I also tried out the 9000 and had the same results) Lastly, is there a similar product (WB and can be brushed on) that does have some actual strength to it..
Thankyou all in advance.

sincerely, Jeremy
 
which finish did you try?

General finish, or a brand named Target? The crosslinker is used with General. I use that finish over an epoxy basecoat with success. I can talk with you about it if you wish, but only if you are using the General finishes products. Message me, if you like.
 
aphelps1 said:
That's the finish that I use. I've not had a problem with it being soft.

Alan
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The only thing I found wrong with 9300 is that it tends to get a blueish cast to the finish if you put it on thick. It was a pretty hard finish.

Try ceramithane...........

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
The only thing I found wrong with 9300 is that it tends to get a blueish cast to the finish if you put it on thick. It was a pretty hard finish.

Try ceramithane...........

Kim
Click to expand...


So I gotta ask - what the hell's wrong with just using good old fashioned catalyzed automotive like Imron or Spies Hecker (my favorite). You guys all afraid of a little cancer or sumpin'...?

TW
 
Cancer.. Hell no Im not scared.. Im a pack a day kinda dude.. No, but seriously, I don't want to mess with that stuff even if I had the luxury of enough space to do so. Believe me Id love to be able to use an auto clear coat and have a rock hard deep finish, but I just plain can't.

I had noticed that blue tint as well, it seemed to get better with age, but it is really just the softness issue that makes me not want to use it.

Alan, would you mind giving a quick rundown of how many coats you apply and the dry time between.. Ive got a whole can so Im willing to give it one last shot.

If nothing else I figure I can cut it half and half with water and try it as a shaft sealer.

Jeremy
 
I've used Ceramithane. What a waste of time. I'd read how great it was. Then I used it...on 6 cues. None of them could withstand a fingernail. I've gone back to CA or epoxy finishes. I thin the epoxy with acetone and apply lots of really thin coats.
 
Thomas Wayne said:



So I gotta ask - what the hell's wrong with just using good old fashioned catalyzed automotive like Imron or Spies Hecker (my favorite). You guys all afraid of a little cancer or sumpin'...?

TW
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I'm afraid of cancer. I know Jerry shoots Chroma and he says with his booth he can't even smell it. I suppose if I built a booth.....
 
clear finish

i havent use the water bourne finish but the C A finish puts off more fumes then what i want to breath.
i was thinking of shooting lacquer. what is the best finsh?
 
Thomas Wayne said:



So I gotta ask - what the hell's wrong with just using good old fashioned catalyzed automotive like Imron or Spies Hecker (my favorite). You guys all afraid of a little cancer or sumpin'...?

TW
Click to expand...

Hi,

Much has been said here in the past about using automotive clear coat as a Boogie Man type of thing. Craig Peterson would spay Emron without a mask or proper ventilation and his spraying of cues is the fodder for many of the anti automotive sentiment here between finish philosophies among cue makers. The true judgement of a clear coat product on a cue does not reveal itself when the cue is freshly buffed and brand new. It is revealed when you inspect it after it spends time being used in the field! There and only then can you judge a clear coat product. Time always tells.

I totally agree with TW here and I have experiment with many finishes including an expensive UV set up. In the final analysis I truly believe that a high end polyurethane automotive clear when applied correctly under the specified control conditions gives your cues the best all around finish concerning stablized structure, high gloss and luster after buffing, and most of all durability.

All of the arguments against Automotive Clear siting health risks are moot as statistics will prove as there are tens of thousands of body shop around in the US and I don't see no epidemic or the EPA stepping in to shut off this practice. Do you know why? They are professionals, wear proper masks, have fire protection, require proper ventilation and filter media for environmental sensitivity.

If you choose to go another way because of of budget I can understand that. But those who dismiss Automotive Clear miss the forest for the trees in my way of seeing it.

We have among us one the the top cue makers / artist of all time who is gracious enough to let us see his thought process without any prejudice or hokus pokus.

I for one use PPG Concept Clear High Solids Poly Automotive at this phase of my career. Guess where I am going after I do this thread? To a website where I can get me some of that Spies Hecker. I have tried 14 types of finish when I was beta testing my cues and that was over a 7 year period. How many products do you think TW used over a 30 year plus period before he found "his favorite". Call me silly but when ever I can, I don't mind taking a 20 year plus quantum leap of experience.


"I rest my case your honor".:idea:

Thank you once more TW, for your sharing attitude. It represents the highest level of peer check and review.

Just my opinion,

Rick G

Explosion ( spark proof ) fire safe blower systems, separate clean room, spray booth, ansul fire protection system within a spray booth utilizing filter media is not a cheap investment to make. But in the long run it is cheap because you can not make world class finished cues without burdening those set up costs.

IMG_3741.jpg
 
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mortuarymike-nv said:
i havent use the water bourne finish but the C A finish puts off more fumes then what i want to breath.
i was thinking of shooting lacquer. what is the best finsh?
Click to expand...

Catalyzed automotive clearcoat. No other finish - and I have experimented with dozens - holds up as well.

I was joking re: not worrying about cancer - I don't want it anymore than any one else. When I spray I use a heavy gauge industrial metal spray booth with major exhaust system, heavy nitrile gloves, and a full coverage supplied-air hood. Any exposure to that stuff is probably not good for you.

That said, I know a world-class cuemaker - anyone here would instantly recognize his name - who likes to apply Imron (or similar) with an artist's paintbrush while the cue slowly rotates in his lathe. He sits there quietly with two shot glasses, one holding whiskey and the other holding mixed finish (insert your own joke here) and flows the finish on in thin even layers, Takes him three applications, on consecutive days, to build up enough mils so he can wet sand and buff to a beautiful professional result.

Which shows me you don't need super expensive equipment to do a fine job - just determination and a little ingenuity. There is no substitute for the automotive stuff - if there was they'd be slathering it on cars...

TW
 
Thomas Wayne said:


Catalyzed automotive clearcoat. No other finish - and I have experimented with dozens - holds up as well.

I was joking re: not worrying about cancer - I don't want it anymore than any one else. When I spray I use a heavy gauge industrial metal spray booth with major exhaust system, heavy nitrile gloves, and a full coverage supplied-air hood. Any exposure to that stuff is probably not good for you.

That said, I know a world-class cuemaker - anyone here would instantly recognize his name - who likes to apply Imron (or similar) with an artist's paintbrush while the cue slowly rotates in his lathe. He sits there quietly with two shot glasses, one holding whiskey and the other holding mixed finish (insert your own joke here) and flows the finish on in thin even layers, Takes him three applications, on consecutive days, to build up enough mils so he can wet sand and buff to a beautiful professional result.

Which shows me you don't need super expensive equipment to do a fine job - just determination and a little ingenuity. There is no substitute for the automotive stuff - if there was they'd be slathering it on cars...

TW
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I also know a highly sought after collectable cue, cuemaker who sprays Imron with an airbrush. I can also smell the stuff in his shop. I hope all stays well with his health. He introduced me to the high dollar HVLP spraying system many years ago. But when his HVLP main unit finally gave up the ghost, he went to the simple air brush. He says it has saved him a lot of money on wasted finish. I traded him the last of my Imron many years ago when I quit using it.
 
cueman said:
I also know a highly sought after collectable cue, cuemaker who sprays Imron with an airbrush. I can also smell the stuff in his shop. I hope all stays well with his health. He introduced me to the high dollar HVLP spraying system many years ago. But when his HVLP main unit finally gave up the ghost, he went to the simple air brush. He says it has saved him a lot of money on wasted finish. I traded him the last of my Imron many years ago when I quit using it.
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If you get caught spraying Imron in California, you get to pay some $200,000 fine. I was told this by a car finisher.
Eddie Prewitt told Kerry Zeiler years ago to use air brush. I saw Kerry spray real well with it. Unfortunately, Kerry was not breathing supplied air when he sprayed PPG, Chroma and Ceramiclear for a few years .
 
Thank you all for the advice and input..
I had worked out a barter system a few years back with a hop-notch body work guy (mostly did high end jobs for owners of some pretty darn nice rides) who had a shop at his house.. I had him spray a cpl cues for me with a ppg clear. I got them back, wet sanded and buffed.. They were absolutely beautiful and tough as nails!! I absolutely agree that the best finish hands down is an auto clear. No question there.
Maybe sometime in the near future Ill be able to set up some kind of spray booth.. My problem now is the shop space Im occupying is a very small and is a subset of a bigger community space of artists and printmakers.. Not only that, but my space is smack dab in the center with no possible way to ventilate to the outside.. So for the time being, Im gonna have to play around some with alternative finishes. I think Ill be trying an epoxy finish next.
I look forward to the day when I can buy a house and build my shop space the way I want it out back.. For the time being Im gonna make due with what I have.

Again, I sincerely thank you all for the responses.
Jeremy
 
You can apply auto finish with a brush. I mix up a small epoxy cup worth of finish and apply with a brush while the cue is rotating. I wear a mask and gloves when working and I do my finishing at the end of the day. I clean my brush leave the cue spinning and leave the shop. I come back an hour later and turn the spinner off. Ok I realize that I am going to get chastised for this but I don't use a booth or fan. Now for why? Well I think you have to keep things in context. I am only using a few ounces of finish at a time on one cue at a time. So how much solvent is in the air the next day after it has fumed off the cue? In a 24*24 shop does that pose a health risk or a risk of explosion? You have to keep it in context to the amount of finish you are using and use common sense. Now if I was SPRAYING and finishing MULTIPLE cues at a time then the obvious answer would be to invest in a booth and proper ventilation. Brushing quick setting finish involves some technique but does offer some advantages. (This is just one way to skin the cat and by no means am I saying its the best)
One last point to keep in mind for all those who have monster fans on there booth is when it's winter and you run your fan for a couple of hours how much heat are you blowing outside? In a cold climate that can amount to a lot $$$
 
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