Teaching Defense To The Advanced

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt[/QUOT

I agree ,It amazes me to watch some great players when they are kicking it almost seems like they are guessing & then they are pissed when they don't hit the OB
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What you say is true about taking the time and effort into learning and practicing safety play. However I think the basic concepts are more like 30 percent while creativity is a larger factor.

I won't nitpick on these numbers though your point of practicing and learning safety play is spot on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
George Fels said:
highly recommended: "The Safety Toolbox", a series of DVDs from Allan Sand. GF
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Thank you for posting that. Would you care to tell us who Allen Sand is? Maybe others know him on here, but I've never heard of him. Johnnyt
 
Ball in Hand is now the standard penalty for fouls in all league games, so there is a greater incentive for defensive play. Looking back, when I first played 8 there were no penalties (house rules) for fouls (except for scratches). Incoming players had the option to move the cue ball off the rail.
 
I always figured if you had to let him out of the chair, don't leave him any kind of shot or easy run out. A lot of bar players would call that dirty pool and you could get in a bad spot doing it back in the day. I always did it because I liked to fight anyway. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt
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The mechanics of defensive play can be taught but the theory of defensive play is equally if not more important. In other words, why are you doing what you are doing and what are you trying to gain. Defensive play can also become a crutch for a player who is just plain afraid to shoot. They pass on good workable shots praying for a hanger or BIH.

This becomes really evident on one pocket. The player finally forces a mistake and he gets two and plays safe again. He requires multiple mistakes to win where the more aggressive player may end the game on the first makable shot. Playing safe all the time can become habit forming. It may work OK against the weaker player but against better players it is not enough.

By definition, a safety is an attempt to get yourself a shot you can do something with. Passing on already good shots playing safe and hoping for hangers or BIH can be strategy for loss.
 
Alan wrote a book adapting the art of war to defensive pool strategy.
That sounds ruthless.
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt
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I think good safety play is 33% knowledge, 33% imagination, 33% intelligence, 33% good eye sight, 33% practice, and 33% talent. ;)

But seriously, defensive lessons are probably simply not sought after by those seeking the lessons. It's probably something that MOST of us do not give the proper amount of practice time to either.

You make a good point. :thumbup2:

Fatz
 
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I'll 3rd the Allan Sands stuff. He has lots of good books. Look him up on Amazon. It's all there and pretty affordable.

Also, isn't there a defensive specialist on the AZ board from Florida or something? Possibly Donny Lutz? I could be wrong.

I was thinking about taking a competely defensive-minded lesson from someone at some point. I love running out a rack as much as anyone, but damn, it's extremely deflating to an opponent when you lock them up so tight that the Special Forces couldn't airlift them out of a hard spot.

Pool is a very psychological game. It's great to be a shot-maker, but you can really play mindgames with your opponent by being a defensive specialist. Soooooooo many games and sets won, just by having that in your arsenal.

I personally think it's probably the most overlooked aspect at the table in pocket billiards. Everyone concentrates on ball-pocketing and position play. But, many times you come to the table after an opponent's leave, or even the break.....and you have to get creative, instead of taking a flyer and hoping for the best.
 
when i 1st switched to playing 9 ball from snooker, i played local tournie in Toronto, 3 fouled a guy and said to him "3 fouls i win the game right" he then says "no you have to tell me i'm on 2", so i look at him and say "OK you wanna play like that", i then say "you're on 2" he fouled, i then proceed to 3 foul him and win all 7 games by 3 fouls, he was so pissed.

I look back and think it was pretty childish of me, but my pattern play was terrible and i won most games by shot making and my super strong safety play from playing snooker.

The more you learn 9 ball, the more you look to always run out, when a good safe is a game winner most of the time, but very neglected. I see too many players trying impossible runouts instead of making 5 balls, lock up on the 6 and then run the rest.
 
". Defensive play can also become a crutch for a player who is just plain afraid to shoot. They pass on good workable shots praying for a hanger or BIH. "

While I agree that sometimes your confidence isn't up and, though a run out is workable if you're playing confidently, you opt for a defensive shot that makes it even easier if you should get ball in hand. If you play a bad safe it can end up worse than before but sometimes you play those odds rather than missing a shot you would normally make and leaving an easy out for your opponent. If you get that out it can sometimes bring you back to speed and get you rolling again.

I've won a lot of matches on defensive play but I will admit that my defensive game, though better than before, can use a lot of work. That applies to 9ball more so than 8ball for me. I'd love to improve on it in both games and try to practice at home as much as possible.
 
StuartTKelley said:
". Defensive play can also become a crutch for a player who is just plain afraid to shoot. They pass on good workable shots praying for a hanger or BIH. "

While I agree that sometimes your confidence isn't up and, though a run out is workable if you're playing confidently, you opt for a defensive shot that makes it even easier if you should get ball in hand. If you play a bad safe it can end up worse than before but sometimes you play those odds rather than missing a shot you would normally make and leaving an easy out for your opponent. If you get that out it can sometimes bring you back to speed and get you rolling again.

I've won a lot of matches on defensive play but I will admit that my defensive game, though better than before, can use a lot of work. That applies to 9ball more so than 8ball for me. I'd love to improve on it in both games and try to practice at home as much as possible.
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very true; it seems, especially playing on a 9 ft table that looking for a defensive shot can actually work against you at times, hurt your confidence in running out and can make you second guess what's feasible to runout. Having all the necessary tools for a solid defensive game is a must at a higher level but the timing and execution is most important
 
StuartTKelley said:
". Defensive play can also become a crutch for a player who is just plain afraid to shoot. They pass on good workable shots praying for a hanger or BIH. "

While I agree that sometimes your confidence isn't up and, though a run out is workable if you're playing confidently, you opt for a defensive shot that makes it even easier if you should get ball in hand. If you play a bad safe it can end up worse than before but sometimes you play those odds rather than missing a shot you would normally make and leaving an easy out for your opponent. If you get that out it can sometimes bring you back to speed and get you rolling again.

I've won a lot of matches on defensive play but I will admit that my defensive game, though better than before, can use a lot of work. That applies to 9ball more so than 8ball for me. I'd love to improve on it in both games and try to practice at home as much as possible.
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That is why I make the comment,
"The theory of defensive play is equally if not more important. In other words, why are you doing what you are doing and what are you trying to gain."

I don't come by my opinions easily. Having two pool rooms one for quite a few years and sitting with my feet up watching 10s of thousands of hours of players playing from champion to beginner. You get to know more about the players then they may know about themselves. Safety play is a very important part of the game but it is only a tool. You have to know how to use it.

Some safety play is nothing more then passing the table back to the other player with out a clue to what can or may happen. Often you may shoot a few balls with intentions of playing position on a safety. Defensive play should be such that it is actually an offensive shot that moves you toward winning, not just running scared.

It comes down to this, no matter what you do, good things and bad things can happen. If one does not have the nerve to let their game out due of fear, they will hit a wall as far as where they can go with their game. Like a golfer who shoots in the low 90's and is satisfied but would not attempt to try to drive a green if you put a gun to their head for fear of what may happen. He has just decided, that is as good as he wants to be, anything else is just wishful thinking. That is fine but they won't ever win a tournament, they will just be one of the better players at their club.

I "LIKE" aggressive play, it also puts fear in your opponent. I remember being at a one pocket tournament and sweating a match with Johnny Ervolino. When like most of the balls were up the table I commented to him, I hated when a guy does that. He said, "He doesn't know what else to do, hell you will always beat a guy who is afraid to shoot at their hole".
 
macguy said:
That is why I make the comment,
"The theory of defensive play is equally if not more important. In other words, why are you doing what you are doing and what are you trying to gain."

I don't come by my opinions easily. Having two pool rooms one for quite a few years and sitting with my feet up watching 10s of thousands of hours of players playing from champion to beginner. You get to know more about the players then they may know about themselves. Safety play is a very important part of the game but it is only a tool. You have to know how to use it.

Some safety play is nothing more then passing the table back to the other player with out a clue to what can or may happen. Often you may shoot a few balls with intentions of playing position on a safety. Defensive play should be such that it is actually an offensive shot that moves you toward winning, not just running scared.

It comes down to this, no matter what you do, good things and bad things can happen. If one does not have the nerve to let their game out due of fear, they will hit a wall as far as where they can go with their game. Like a golfer who shoots in the low 90's and is satisfied but would not attempt to try to drive a green if you put a gun to their head for fear of what may happen. He has just decided, that is as good as he wants to be, anything else is just wishful thinking. That is fine but they won't ever win a tournament, they will just be one of the better players at their club.

I "LIKE" aggressive play, it also puts fear in your opponent. I remember being at a one pocket tournament and sweating a match with Johnny Ervolino. When like most of the balls were up the table I commented to him, I hated when a guy does that. He said, "He doesn't know what else to do, hell you will always beat a guy who is afraid to shoot at their hole".
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I agree with you. If I'm understaning you, you're making the point that it's part of a complete game. I know when I've played my best in tournaments and league play it's been because my mind was clear about what I was doing from the start of the rack. I'm either saying I can run this out or I need to play these shots and then get the shape for my defensive shot or I need to move this ball that's in trouble while playing this defensive shot....so it's part of a clear picture and planned rather than an afterthought....of course getting out of line(as I do often) I have to dig down and figure out a defensive play in hopes to stay alive in that rack....doesn't always work out! LOL
 
When I become a pro player I'll remember to be aggressive and not to rely on safety play at the Mosconi Cup.

Until then I guess I'll have to be content to lock my opponents up in jail.

But I do need to improve one thing about my safety play: when I see the opportunity to freeze the CB behind another ball, I forget to pay attention to the eventual position of the OB...then, unbeknownst to me it banks into a pocket!

I don't have that problem with other "non-freeze" safeties, but I get tunnel vision when it's a freeze opportunity.

Regarding one-pocket, I've seen lots of matches where commentators like BIncardona, DDelberto, GMatthews have said they didn't agree with the shooter going for a shot rather than a great safety, usually because the shot didn't allow position for another shot. The shooter made a ball but now he doesn't have another pocket-shot or a good safety.
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt
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About 10 years ago I took lessons with Earl. We did nothing but kicking and safes for 2 hours. It was fantastic. Also just this year my friend and I took more lessons. We spent a lot of time kicking and kicking safe. Perhaps Earl is ahead of the other top pros when it comes to instruction?

KMRUNOUT
 
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