Teaching Defense To The Advanced

lee brett said:
The more you learn 9 ball, the more you look to always run out, when a good safe is a game winner most of the time, but very neglected. I see too many players trying impossible runouts instead of making 5 balls, lock up on the 6 and then run the rest.
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I would say that you are *not* learning 9 ball if this is the case. I think the more you learn 9 ball, the more obvious it becomes that good safety play is essential to pushing your rack win% as high as possible. Can you run out more racks? Sure. But any decent pro player is going to pass on shots that the typical bar player would flail away at, and make 1 out of 5 times or less. Id say these players trying impossible runouts have not learned the game.

KMRUNOUT
 
Johnnyt said:
Thank you for posting that. Would you care to tell us who Allen Sand is? Maybe others know him on here, but I've never heard of him. Johnnyt
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Howdy Folks,

Printed & Kindle books are on Amazon
(included translations)

Get PDFs on billiardgods.com

Nook versions are on barnesandnoble.com
 
5 safety minimum

My favorite pool match of all time. I love the roar of the crowd, it's awesome! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Opbb1OErf6g#t=13
This game has driven all of my excitement in the defensive game. It's too bad people think they are a weak player for choosing to make a safety. HA!

Then one day the hubs and I met up with Mr Donny Lutz. He talks really fast, he is super nice and, he is brilliant. When my hubs asked, "well what did you think?" during our ride home... I was still very quiet. It's hard to put in words all that I had learned.

Fastfoward to a year later, my new rule is that when I keep score folks need to make 5 safeties. I don't care who you are or how good you are. You can find 5 freaking safeties on the table, if you don't see one ask for a time out. People don't like it when I say that and I don't really care, if I don't say it they will not think about it, if I say they may choose to ignore me, but at some point later that night they will be thinking about it.

I will try my damnest to have people learn to love a defensive game.... Even if folks hate at the end of the night.
 
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Sounds like you are learning your lessons well.

JuicyGirl said:
My favorite pool match of all time. I love the roar of the crowd, it's awesome! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Opbb1OErf6g#t=13
This game has driven all of my excitement in the defensive game. It's too bad people think they are a weak player for choosing to make a safety. HA!

Then one day the hubs and I met up with Mr Donny Lutz. He talks really fast, he is super nice and, he is brilliant. When my hubs asked, "well what did you think?" during our ride home... I was still very quiet. It's hard to put in words all that I had learned.

Fastfoward to a year later, my new rule is that when I keep score folks need to make 5 safeties. I don't care who you are or how good you are. You can find 5 freaking safeties on the table, if you don't see one ask for a time out. People don't like it when I say that and I don't really care, if I don't say it they will not think about it, if I say they may choose to ignore me, but at some point later that night they will be thinking about it.

I will try my damnest to have people learn to love a defensive game.... Even if folks hate at the end of the night.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
JuicyGirl said:
My favorite pool match of all time. I love the roar of the crowd, it's awesome! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Opbb1OErf6g#t=13
This game has driven all of my excitement in the defensive game. It's too bad people think they are a weak player for choosing to make a safety. HA!

Then one day the hubs and I met up with Mr Donny Lutz. He talks really fast, he is super nice and, he is brilliant. When my hubs asked, "well what did you think?" during our ride home... I was still very quiet. It's hard to put in words all that I had learned.

Fastfoward to a year later, my new rule is that when I keep score folks need to make 5 safeties. I don't care who you are or how good you are. You can find 5 freaking safeties on the table, if you don't see one ask for a time out. People don't like it when I say that and I don't really care, if I don't say it they will not think about it, if I say they may choose to ignore me, but at some point later that night they will be thinking about it.

I will try my damnest to have people learn to love a defensive game.... Even if folks hate at the end of the night.
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So, did you get an actual lesson from Donny? Is he from Florida?

If you did get a lesson, what aspects of the game did he cover?
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't know why I've never seen top pros that teach lessons for the other part of the game...defense. There are a lot of players out there that have no problems making balls and playing position that have very poor defensive games. If they took a few hours of lessons from a pro or teacher on how to play lock-up safes, kick safes, and safes that leave a low% shot but almost impossible to get on next ball. I think someone that's a great defensive player and can teach could make a good buck doing it. I'd say 80% of defense can be taught and the other 20% is imagination. Johnnyt
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I totally agree with this, that is why during practise i try to do safeties also, coz i know safety battle is also a skill to learn with doing counter safeties too.
i love what Efren "bata" Reyes does at safety battles, he always think of not just hitting the balls but doing a counter safety in return
 
In my sage Pat Morita voice...Against a strong shooter...
 

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Ignacio Chavez

Chavez is a close friend of mine and his safety play is well known. He has tortured many a Pro out of the money.

All the players in NYC got to see his game 2 years ago. His game is pretty simple. Lock 'em up BIH & run out.

Alot of ppl have been posting about what a lock up safe does to you psychologically and its never more evident when you see him play. Just watch what he does to Tony Crosby in this money match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAE1fwD1OBE. And this was at the time when Tony was beating Efren all the time.

check out the first safety at
20:20
24:01
41:30
54:50
56:29
107:15
111:10
116:20
im sure there's more but just watch the whole match. plenty to learn from this match
 
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j_zippel said:
very true; it seems, especially playing on a 9 ft table that looking for a defensive shot can actually work against you at times, hurt your confidence in running out and can make you second guess what's feasible to runout. Having all the necessary tools for a solid defensive game is a must at a higher level but the timing and execution is most important
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You use the one phrase that sums up what I am referring to ,

"you second guess what's feasible to runout".

There has to be a confidence in your own skills. I think I am also talking about different type of matches though. I know on a bar table playing in a league it easy to be frightened of doing something that you can be blamed for a loss or looked at like you are stupid. I think I am more referring to a couple of guys matched up battling it out with no time limits for the cash.

Tournament play and league play are different then gambling. You do many times need to use a different strategy due to the sudden death nature of it. As aggressive as I like to play, in a tournament I can't just throw away games to loosen up, every game is too important. I will play quit a bit different depending on how the match is going and I am playing.

It was a common thing years ago for money players/gamblers to have very poor tournament records. It just did not suit their style of play. They like no clocks. I remember being at a tournament with a top money player and he got roped into playing in the tournament. After losing a match to a good local player he was a little annoyed. He went over to the player and shook hands then said, "Would you like to play a little more "For Real"? Needless to say the guy declined.

It is not apples and oranges per se, but I do understand how some may love safety play since from their own experience they have used it successfully. Match play and short session tournament play and league play do often require a different strategy. You certainly can't afford throw away any games in a short single race to seven. The gambler/money player does not really value any one game or live and die with each game. They are looking ahead towards what they believe will be the ultimate outcome. This outcome may take several days and multiple sessions to prove itself, but they have nowhere to be, they came to play.
 
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StuartTKelley said:
". Defensive play can also become a crutch for a player who is just plain afraid to shoot. They pass on good workable shots praying for a hanger or BIH. "

While I agree that sometimes your confidence isn't up and, though a run out is workable if you're playing confidently, you opt for a defensive shot that makes it even easier if you should get ball in hand. If you play a bad safe it can end up worse than before but sometimes you play those odds rather than missing a shot you would normally make and leaving an easy out for your opponent. If you get that out it can sometimes bring you back to speed and get you rolling again.

I've won a lot of matches on defensive play but I will admit that my defensive game, though better than before, can use a lot of work. That applies to 9ball more so than 8ball for me. I'd love to improve on it in both games and try to practice at home as much as possible.
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There is a lot of truth to this. When I was in college at Northwest Missouri State I played a former "semi pro" (so I was told later) called Buzz for some cheap $20 sets to get some good practice in. After it was over he told me he liked my game but I played too much defense. Understanding that fine line of when to play safe vs when to go for the run out is very important even if it means the possibility of selling out if you miss. I still think I play a bit too much defense...but when everyone tries to run out every single time they are at the table, being able to play it has won me a lot of games.
 
For me it was quite different than formal lesson. It was strictly to understand what a safety is, how you control the CB the on and the TABLE.


JG

fathomblue said:
So, did you get an actual lesson from Donny? Is he from Florida?



If you did get a lesson, what aspects of the game did he cover?
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Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
 
Call me crazy....but I just don't see the intricacies of safety play, especially when you are talking about 9 or 10 ball. The safeties pretty much just jump out at you. I think there are a few creative safeties that you have to learn when you are playing bar table 8 ball, but even then they aren't rocket surgery. Sure every once in a blue moon (once every 25 rack or so) a situation comes up where the more creative player comes up with a cool safety, but more times than not simple good execution wins out over the "crafty, knowledgeable, defensive specialist."

A lot of people love to paint the picture of pool as being this really cerebral game. Even in one-pocket, knowledge only gets you so far. You can study the game of one-pocket and after limited study you can watch a match and if you know the particular player’s tendencies, you will have a pretty good idea of what they are going to do.

I think the most cerebral part of ANY game is sorting out the patterns in 14.1. But yet again, it's not the most difficult thing in the world to do.

The reason most of us amateurs aren't great at safety play and more specifically -- at kicking isn't because we don't have the knowledge to excel at these aspects of the game, it's just we choose to not practice them. Most of us don't have the fine tuned touch that's needed to nestle that cue ball right up against that blocking ball. So would instruction in these areas of the game be necessary? Only if you are willing to start practicing these things.

Lastly, pool in all of its forms is not chess. It's more about execution than imagination.
 
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Defense requires skill and practice just like all other facets of the game. In a rotation game, if you can get out, by all means go for it. If the lay of the table makes it nearly impossible, play a lock down safety, get ball in hand, then run out.

Some of the best moves in onepocket (other than 8 and out) doesn't even require you to make a ball. Get the ball close to your hole, lock down you opponent on a ball, or balls, and he is in the weeds big time, especially if you are playing 3 foul rule in a tourney.

Defense wins games. If it didn't the pro players would just try to run out every rack no matter how the balls lay. Defensive play takes practice and is way under rated.
 
BasementDweller said:
Call me crazy....but I just don't see the intricacies of safety play, especially when you are talking about 9 or 10 ball. The safeties pretty much just jump out at you. I think there are a few creative safeties that you have to learn when you are playing bar table 8 ball, but even then they aren't rocket surgery. Sure every once in a blue moon (once every 25 rack or so) a situation comes up where the more creative player comes up with a cool safety, but more times than not simple good execution wins out over the "crafty, knowledgeable, defensive specialist."

A lot of people love to paint the picture of pool as being this really cerebral game. Even in one-pocket, knowledge only gets you so far. You can study the game of one-pocket and after limited study you can watch a match and if you know the particular player’s tendencies, you will have a pretty good idea of what they are going to do.

I think the most cerebral part of ANY game is sorting out the patterns in 14.1. But yet again, it's not the most difficult thing in the world to do.

The reason most of us amateurs aren't great at safety play and more specifically -- at kicking isn't because we don't have the knowledge to excel at these aspects of the game, it's just we choose to not practice them. Most of us don't have the fine tuned touch that's needed to nestle that cue ball right up against that blocking ball. So would instruction in these areas of the game be necessary? Only if you are willing to start practicing these things.

Lastly, pool in all of its forms is not chess. It's more about execution than imagination.
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Hmm...I don't know about this. I think the ability to execute is pretty worthless if a player is consistently choosing the wrong shots. I mean, look at one pocket and the Efren of say 8-10 years ago. Did he really *execute* that much better than the other players, or did he *out-move* them? I would argue that he out moved them. This ability relies quite a bit on an understanding and awareness of the subtle nuances of each particular shot and position. It also relies on creativity and plain old mental aptitude. To stick with the Efren example, even in rotation games, he seems to choose routes that consistently *work*. When he plays safe, he decides where the cueball and object ball *can* go, and selects the options that seem to work out the best. I think the difference between a strong safe and a weak safe is more often about *choosing* the best shot than about the execution. Obviously the best creativity without the execution is useless as well. I just think there is more room to grow in the creativity area.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Hmm...I don't know about this. I think the ability to execute is pretty worthless if a player is consistently choosing the wrong shots. I mean, look at one pocket and the Efren of say 8-10 years ago. Did he really *execute* that much better than the other players, or did he *out-move* them? I would argue that he out moved them. This ability relies quite a bit on an understanding and awareness of the subtle nuances of each particular shot and position. It also relies on creativity and plain old mental aptitude. To stick with the Efren example, even in rotation games, he seems to choose routes that consistently *work*. When he plays safe, he decides where the cueball and object ball *can* go, and selects the options that seem to work out the best. I think the difference between a strong safe and a weak safe is more often about *choosing* the best shot than about the execution. Obviously the best creativity without the execution is useless as well. I just think there is more room to grow in the creativity area.

KMRUNOUT
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First - good post.

Okay let's look at Efren...

I'll grant you that one-pocket is the game requiring the most imagination or creativity, but the days of having to send off a check to Accustats for some footage of the game are long gone. Anybody can watch as much one-pocket as they want and it doesn't take long to start seeing all the different shot possibilities. When I say this, I'm not referring to your average social pool player here (=banger), I'm more talking about us pool freaks, maybe still bangers but at least knowledgeable ones.

There are a lot of players that could step up to a pool table that's in the middle of a one-pocket rack and be able to identify all the possible shots. The reason that someone like me, wouldn't elect to shoot the shot where the cue ball grazes an object ball then goes around the table 5 rails only to return and lay nestled up against a blocking object ball isn't because we don't see the shot lying there. It's because we know we can't execute it.

I will say that it's not really fair to use Efren as the example since he really is in a class by himself. He's such a well rounded player and he certainly does possess more knowledge than most. I think his 3 cushion knowledge gives him an edge over most of his competitors. But when you say Efren "out-moves" his opponents this to me is more about his flawless execution. Many good one-pocket players see the same shots he does, but they fail to freeze the cue ball perfectly behind the intended object ball like so consistently does. So out-moving your opponent isn't really about out thinking them, it's more about seeing the shot and then being able to execute it. Amateurs can see the shot many times, but just not execute it.

It's about execution baby!
 
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