Tell me about TAP...

linkui said:
Anyone ever heard of the TAP league?
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I dont play league pool...its just not for me but I did witness the TAP in action at Valley Forge. If your a person that likes team pool I feel its well organized and looked like the folks were having a blast. There is a website I'm sure, its worth a google!!
 
I have to apologize....

My question was misleading. I work for the league as the military coordinator. My question was more of a "poll." I am happy for the quick responses though.
 
TAP league?

I played in a TAP league in Abilene TX and enjoyed it. Our team won local season and trip to nationals in New Orleans LA OCT 28 - Nov 2 2004 Approximately. We placed in the top 13 teams in the country, I and my girlfriend both played in the 2-3-4 handicap tournament having to pay 100 dollars each to do so no big deal or so I (thought). After winning a couple rounds in the singles tournament I was to collect 150 dollars for my wins and y girlfreind was to collect 55 dollars for her wins my team won 500 dollars for the team event. All in all a good weekend 4 straight days of pool in New orleans money well spent on the premise the winnings would be paid in a timely manner 2-3 weeks according to the tournament director. Well It is now April 29 2005 and have yet to be paid for any of the events that we competed in, My girlfreind called and inquired about the money and was told that the check is in the mail!! well ok I will give them the bebfit of the doubt accountants slow mail whatever, so we wait and call again we were told that we would have to see our league director about being paid. Here is where I lose my temper I didn't pay the league director to play in nationals I paid TAP. My entry form was faxed with a CC # to the TAP headquarters for entry into the singles competition the team entry fee was paid by our local league director. but at the tournament all we heard was howgreat TAP was compared to all the other leagues out there and how much money was to be given away!

Back to my point now sorry for the ramble, What ever problems existed between TAP and my local League operator are there problems not mine I paid TAP and expect them to pay me I don;t need the money but the principle is PAY YOUR DEBTS!!! They also owe another freind of mine 800$ from the singles 5-6-7 handicap tounament that he has not received. I will handle my issues with Tap when I return from this current Deployment.

SSgt Zach Murphy active duty Air Force Dyess AFB TX
 
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Thanks for the info...

stay in touch and ill see what i can get done for you. Which country are you in over there? Keep your head down.
 
Poolhalljunkie,

I've played TAP for quite awhile and really enjoy it. I was also in New Orleans for Nationals and had to wait to get paid. Fortunately for our area, our League Op paid us and got reimbursed from Corporate TAP. I'm not sure who you've talked to so far, but ask for Dave Jefferies at Corporate. He's the guy when it comes to handling that stuff. He should be able to get you an answer one way or another.

There is no excuse for you not having your money by now. If you can, post the results here. I'm curious to see how it ends up.
 
Skess said:
Poolhalljunkie,

I've played TAP for quite awhile and really enjoy it. I was also in New Orleans for Nationals and had to wait to get paid. Fortunately for our area, our League Op paid us and got reimbursed from Corporate TAP. I'm not sure who you've talked to so far, but ask for Dave Jefferies at Corporate. He's the guy when it comes to handling that stuff. He should be able to get you an answer one way or another.

There is no excuse for you not having your money by now. If you can, post the results here. I'm curious to see how it ends up.
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I've played in TAP for awhile, and it was an OK league. One of the biggest problems with it, was that their scoring and handicapping system for 8 ball really sucked. The scoring was a pain in the butt, because the scorekeeper had to mark something after every shot. If the shooter makes a ball, then the scorekeeper had to mark. If the shooter makes another ball, then that's another mark. If the shooter misses, then one more mark. Then repeat for next shooter. As a result scorekeeping was a pain, that nobody wanted to do, because pool leagues are supposed to be about having fun and interacting with the players on your team and in the league. But the scorekeeper had to shut everyone else out, and focus only on scoring.

Then on top of that, all of that tedious work would be wasted because the handicap ratings that the computer doled out were noticably inaccurate. The TAP reps would try to cover it up with their normal double talk about sandbagging or bad scorekeeping, but this went beyond those issues. The system was so inaccurate, that it became easy to determine who would win before the match even began... That 4 is so underrated, that he'll win no matter who he plays. That 3 is so underrated, that he'll also win. That 3 is so overrated, that no matter who he plays, he'll lose. That 6 is in such a bad slump, that I'll guarantee that he'll lose. And, over 90% of the time, those predictions would be right. The TAP system would take so long to adjust anyone, that these same players would be mis-rated throughout the whole season.

BCA and other leagues understand that the higher rated player will virtually always win in a straight up match. Therefore, a handicapping system should help the lower rated player only to a point. In other words, if the higher rated player would win 90% of the time, then a good handicapping system would make it so that the higher rated player would win about 55-60% of the time. This makes it a challenging competition for both players. Winning 90% of the time, although fun to some degree, eventually gets boring, and you want to play against stronger competition. Playing more challenging matches is what causes players to improve.

I and many other players all recognized that flaw with the TAP system. Most have moved on to better systems. A small few have recognized the flaw and stayed anyway, usually because their friends have remained.

Besides, not paying players, on any level, but especially on the National Level, is never cool!
 
FLICKit said:
I've played in TAP for awhile, and it was an OK league. One of the biggest problems with it, was that their scoring and handicapping system for 8 ball really sucked. The scoring was a pain in the butt, because the scorekeeper had to mark something after every shot. If the shooter makes a ball, then the scorekeeper had to mark. If the shooter makes another ball, then that's another mark. If the shooter misses, then one more mark. Then repeat for next shooter. As a result scorekeeping was a pain, that nobody wanted to do, because pool leagues are supposed to be about having fun and interacting with the players on your team and in the league. But the scorekeeper had to shut everyone else out, and focus only on scoring.

Then on top of that, all of that tedious work would be wasted because the handicap ratings that the computer doled out were noticably inaccurate. The TAP reps would try to cover it up with their normal double talk about sandbagging or bad scorekeeping, but this went beyond those issues. The system was so inaccurate, that it became easy to determine who would win before the match even began... That 4 is so underrated, that he'll win no matter who he plays. That 3 is so underrated, that he'll also win. That 3 is so overrated, that no matter who he plays, he'll lose. That 6 is in such a bad slump, that I'll guarantee that he'll lose. And, over 90% of the time, those predictions would be right. The TAP system would take so long to adjust anyone, that these same players would be mis-rated throughout the whole season.

BCA and other leagues understand that the higher rated player will virtually always win in a straight up match. Therefore, a handicapping system should help the lower rated player only to a point. In other words, if the higher rated player would win 90% of the time, then a good handicapping system would make it so that the higher rated player would win about 55-60% of the time. This makes it a challenging competition for both players. Winning 90% of the time, although fun to some degree, eventually gets boring, and you want to play against stronger competition. Playing more challenging matches is what causes players to improve.

I and many other players all recognized that flaw with the TAP system. Most have moved on to better systems. A small few have recognized the flaw and stayed anyway, usually because their friends have remained.

Besides, not paying players, on any level, but especially on the National Level, is never cool!
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These are valid points, but i've yet to see the system that is perfect. As always, i love to get feedback and new ideas. Do you have any suggestions on how to make the handicaps work a little smoother?
 
linkui said:
These are valid points, but i've yet to see the system that is perfect. As always, i love to get feedback and new ideas. Do you have any suggestions on how to make the handicaps work a little smoother?
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Nobody said anything about perfect. Nice try with the typical double speak... Little fake ignorance, so as to ignore what you already know - TAP computer handicapping system is ridiculously inaccurate, and scoring unnecessarily tedious, especially in comparison with the others.

If you want to hear ideas for improving TAP, I'd suggest that you start off by listening to what's been said already.

Here's another bright idea - try paying the players the money that they legitimately expect, instead of doling out vouchers which took over 1/4 of a year to fulfill on, and as has been stated already, some still haven't been fulfilled. If you can't acknowledge the failures and bad ideas, then how can you expect to honestly correct them???

Can you even give an explanation as to why TAP was unable to pay the players and had to resort to lousy vouchers?

Maybe all the TAP players should put vouchers into their weekly dues, and offer the same guarantee of payment at a later date.

Go ahead and try more typical positive spin in order to ignore the clear facts. Let's see if that would be perfect.
 
FLICKit said:
Nobody said anything about perfect. Nice try with the typical double speak... Little fake ignorance, so as to ignore what you already know - TAP computer handicapping system is ridiculously inaccurate, and scoring unnecessarily tedious, especially in comparison with the others.

If you want to hear ideas for improving TAP, I'd suggest that you start off by listening to what's been said already.

Here's another bright idea - try paying the players the money that they legitimately expect, instead of doling out vouchers which took over 1/4 of a year to fulfill on, and as has been stated already, some still haven't been fulfilled. If you can't acknowledge the failures and bad ideas, then how can you expect to honestly correct them???

Can you even give an explanation as to why TAP was unable to pay the players and had to resort to lousy vouchers?

Maybe all the TAP players should put vouchers into their weekly dues, and offer the same guarantee of payment at a later date.

Go ahead and try more typical positive spin in order to ignore the clear facts. Let's see if that would be perfect.
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Wow, you aren't upset easily, are you? I agree with the statements you have made, especially because along with working for TAP, i am also a player. I was also at nationals and had to wait for my money as well. The fact of the matter was, this was something they had just tried out because of a hassle from the government, so i hear. Naturally, it didnt go over so well, with the players, or with the vendors at the tournament who were expecting to have all these winners with all this money coming out ready to spend. Lesson learned. Won't happen again. As far as ignoring problems, i think that you just like the world to know how angry you are and therefore look past any problem solving that is in the works, or maybe you just don't know about them. At any rate, I am sorry for the bad experiences you have had, and I won't try and change your mind one way or the other. I just ask that you give a little more slack and by all means, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Thanks again.
 
linkui said:
Wow, you aren't upset easily, are you? I agree with the statements you have made, especially because along with working for TAP, i am also a player. I was also at nationals and had to wait for my money as well. The fact of the matter was, this was something they had just tried out because of a hassle from the government, so i hear. Naturally, it didnt go over so well, with the players, or with the vendors at the tournament who were expecting to have all these winners with all this money coming out ready to spend. Lesson learned. Won't happen again. As far as ignoring problems, i think that you just like the world to know how angry you are and therefore look past any problem solving that is in the works, or maybe you just don't know about them. At any rate, I am sorry for the bad experiences you have had, and I won't try and change your mind one way or the other. I just ask that you give a little more slack and by all means, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Thanks again.
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There'd be no stones cast if that were the criterium...:)

Legitimate complaints are more than welcomed in this forum. Danny H. posted his, for example and it cleared up a lot of misinformation. If the league is withholding prize money, complaints are legitimate and, I'd say, should be encouraged here. Why? So the rest of us don't have to go through the same ripoff experiences.

The internet is a great tool for exposing these problems and if the people who start these problems (I'm not pointing at you, personally, btw) don't like it, well...fuck 'em!...if they didn't start trouble, there'd be little of it.

Jeff Livingston
 
If I may, I would like to address some of the issues that were brought up about TAP on this board.
As far as I know all of the TAP nationals money that were owed was paid out by TAP. I didn’t handle the payouts so I can’t help you with your problem but please call the TAP nationals office at 800-984-7665 and ask for Dave Jeffries. There may have been a mistake or a oversight in your case but I also know that there is always two sides to every story too. This I can say for sure was that our recent Valley Forge event monies were paid out on the spot and that all future TAP events will be paid out by checks and not vouchers.
TAP is averaging over 1,000 new members a month and strives to be a league for the player. Our national web site has a forum (unlike the APA) for our members to post their questions, input and their concerns on anything that has to do with the league. We listen to our members. Why didn’t you post anything about this on our board? I might also add that our site is getting over 9,000 hits a week. So there is interest in TAP.
As for people saying TAP handicaps are inaccurate, I beg to differ. I still run leagues in Western Pa. and compared to a APA handicap, in my opinion, TAP is far superior. My league is growing while the local APA op here just got downsized. That should tell you something right there.
As for players paying by vouchers, I have been a league op. for 8 years and have been stuck personally for money alot of times and even had to resort to going to court to get paid. Licensees stick their reputation, personal lives and their own money on the line for a league system that they believe in.
One last thing, I am not going to get in a pissing match with some of these people that are very hostile towards TAP. 99% of the time they are APA people and I have had my share of bouts with them on other forums and I will not do it here. We are continually banning APA operators from our message board for posting their garbage. Why do you think they even would bother to come on if they weren't worried about TAP? TAP is growing and will continue to grow because it is a better system out there than anything else going. Just ask their players.

Sam Rullo
TAP VP of Sales
 
Sam at TAP said:
If I may, I would like to address some of the issues that were brought up about TAP on this board.
As far as I know all of the TAP nationals money that were owed was paid out by TAP. I didn’t handle the payouts so I can’t help you with your problem but please call the TAP nationals office at 800-984-7665 and ask for Dave Jeffries. There may have been a mistake or a oversight in your case but I also know that there is always two sides to every story too. This I can say for sure was that our recent Valley Forge event monies were paid out on the spot and that all future TAP events will be paid out by checks and not vouchers.
TAP is averaging over 1,000 new members a month and strives to be a league for the player. Our national web site has a forum (unlike the APA) for our members to post their questions, input and their concerns on anything that has to do with the league. We listen to our members. Why didn’t you post anything about this on our board? I might also add that our site is getting over 9,000 hits a week. So there is interest in TAP.
As for people saying TAP handicaps are inaccurate, I beg to differ. I still run leagues in Western Pa. and compared to a APA handicap, in my opinion, TAP is far superior. My league is growing while the local APA op here just got downsized. That should tell you something right there.
As for players paying by vouchers, I have been a league op. for 8 years and have been stuck personally for money alot of times and even had to resort to going to court to get paid. Licensees stick their reputation, personal lives and their own money on the line for a league system that they believe in.
One last thing, I am not going to get in a pissing match with some of these people that are very hostile towards TAP. 99% of the time they are APA people and I have had my share of bouts with them on other forums and I will not do it here. We are continually banning APA operators from our message board for posting their garbage. Why do you think they even would bother to come on if they weren't worried about TAP? TAP is growing and will continue to grow because it is a better system out there than anything else going. Just ask their players.

Sam Rullo
TAP VP of Sales
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Thanks for the backup, Sammy.
 
No problem Dan. I believe Poolhalljunkie has a legit concern that should be addressed but on another hand I also believe Flickit to be a supporter for the other league. I read his post on the Danny Harriman thread stating that TAP is a "dysfunctional group". Anytime you are dealing with that many people, the possiblity of an oversite is there. To say TAP is a league that does not pay it's players is a little bit far reaching. As I stated earlier, we had no problems in Valley Forge. In fact, I directed the singles event and when I got back home, a player contacted me from Washington state stating that he had to leave and forgot to pick up $50 that he had coming in the singles. I made sure he got it. No one ever mentions the good, just the bad.
In short, to all of the people on this forum, TAP is legit, TAP is growing and TAP isn't going away. No amount of rumors is going to stop this league because the players that are in it, know the truth. Ask Allen Hopkins. We are the only league that he wants at his events (a second one is planned for late summer 2006) in Valley Forge. That also should tell you something.

One question for Flickit.....You said "Most have moved on to better systems" I would like to know which system you are talking about?
 
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