Tell me about TAP...
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Timberly
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My experience with league play isn't very exstensive. I played on an in house league (no handicap) back in '91 and we had a good time and played a lot of games each night. Each team member played every team member on the opposing team. We had fun and laughed a lot. Then I played two sessions on TAP about a yr ago. I'm not going to get into knocking TAP but I will say that it wasn't for me. Now during the winter when there's nothing else to do I play on an independent scotch doubles league, no handicap. I personally didn't enjoy TAP and not all of my issues were with TAP itself, some were just the people in the league. Now things are much more relaxed, I play more games, and I have fun again. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's a traveling league and not an in-house league but my options in this area are VERY limited. FLICKit, I can say that you've made a point or two that I very well agree with. In the end it's all about personal preference. I play league to relax, and have a good time. For the people that take it extremely serious and they want to go to Vegas, then TAP, APA, BCA... that stuff is for them. If you just want to enjoy the game, your team, and a few beers without the scoring headache and the handicap headaches, do yourself a favor and play on an independant league similar to what I play on. Again, everyone is different and has their own preferences... mine just happens to be no handicap and no headaches. As a side note, the scotch doubles isn't the only non-handicapped league... they also offer a seperate league for men and women. Our team wanted to stay together so we opted to join the scoth doubles.... most on my team also play in the singles league. LOL, I almost forgot the best part.... the independent league.... WAY cheaper.
Last post on this for me Flick. I don't have the time for this nonsense. It seems all you want to do is nit pick so you go right ahead. Just go to the TAP site and watch how the numbers continue to grow. You want to stay on the sidelines? That's your choice.. Bye.
PS....I been watching all the posts on the APA system too. Goes to show, you can't please everyone no matter what system it is.
If your so smart and know everything, than why don't you come up with a perfect handicapping system, invest your money, market it, start recruiting, organize it, do all the legal work, put your reputation on the line and go national with your new league. TAP founder Loyd Schonter did all of that. He didn't hide on message boards and whine. If it was so easy than why do you see only 4-5 national leagues out there? At least I had the drive to start a league in my area and have built it to one of the largest (if not the largest by the end of the year) pool leagues in Western Pa. You didn't even do that. Get off your ass and do something instead of nit picking something that you never tried to do yourself.
PS....I been watching all the posts on the APA system too. Goes to show, you can't please everyone no matter what system it is.
If your so smart and know everything, than why don't you come up with a perfect handicapping system, invest your money, market it, start recruiting, organize it, do all the legal work, put your reputation on the line and go national with your new league. TAP founder Loyd Schonter did all of that. He didn't hide on message boards and whine. If it was so easy than why do you see only 4-5 national leagues out there? At least I had the drive to start a league in my area and have built it to one of the largest (if not the largest by the end of the year) pool leagues in Western Pa. You didn't even do that. Get off your ass and do something instead of nit picking something that you never tried to do yourself.
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Sam at TAP said:
Maybe I should.
Maybe I should do it the TAP way.
All I'd have to do is copy the APA, an already existing successful method. Then simply change a couple of rules, and change the handicapping formula (even if it's for the worse, as has been demonstrated). Then take a number of people from the APA, who have already been trained in how to make the system work, and make them a part of the organization. Wouldn't have to change any other format at all.
Let's see how many players/team - stick with 5 to 8.
OK, how about determining the handicap range - stick with 2 to 7.
OK, what about the race format for number of games - just copy the APA grid
How about weeks/season? - keep it the same
How about seasons/year - the same
How about playoff format - the same
Do we do a city level tournament - yeah, just like the other.
How about a national tournament? - yeah that too.
OK, but we'll move the location to somewhere else - hey that's cool... way to be original
Annual membership fees - keep it the same
Cost/week to play - same
Payouts at the end of the season - let's make that less.
OK, but even though imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Be sure to bash that system, that we copied, every chance we can get.
Oh, and then lie about it, and say it has nothing to do with politics.
Hmmm.... Doesn't sound very hard at all...
I don't know what APA leagues you've been playing in, but in the 8 years I've played, and the many, many regular seasons and playoff sessions my team has won, I've never received one shiny nickle.FLICKit said:
Sure, if you're one of the 4 teams that qualifies for the regionals, and then you're the one team out of 16 or more at those regionals that qualifies for the nationals, you get a great payout...airfare, hotel, etc, etc. The vast majority of teams get squat.
I've played one complete session of TAP, and one that just finished and has playoffs still pending. We won money for our regular season finish last session, then more money for playoff finish, then more money at the regional tourny...all for just that one session. We then took a team to the rally in VF, and won more money there. Granted, I'm not going to be retiring off this windfall anytime soon, but it's more than I've ever gotten back from the APA.
I play both leagues, and personally prefer TAP, only because the level of competion is better (in my league anyway), and I prefer most of TAP's actual game rules to the APA's. Sandbagging can & does go on in both leagues, and always will IMO. I certainly don't think it's any worse in TAP.
Qnut said:
In our area APA pays it's players for regular season playoffs, and has done so for a long time. Long before TAP was around. Our TAP LO was one of those who were trained by the APA system. It was a pretty shady process how he switched over. In our area, the payouts for APA are much higher than TAP (almost double). Like you said, nobody is retiring off the windfall. Just responding to you and stating the differences in the area.
As far as sandbagging, that's human nature that is gonna happen in any area, and any league. If you review my earlier posts, they were about something totally different. In those posts I pointed out the severe inaccuracies of the TAP handicapping system, amongst honest players just playing under the system. Average players who have 90% win percentage, and never go up, is a blatant example.
People can make excuses for anything, of course. The question is, if it is happening with any level of regularity, then it says something about the TAP system.
Some very good points
Flick, I have played TAP for a long time now and have been a victim too most of the points you have made. I have saw 3's with a 10 & 2 record and not move up.
I have watched a 3 shoot with a stroke of a seven. And let's not even mention the use of english. This 3 from what I hear give's weight to a desent player in the pool hall.
Although I agree with most of your points you might want to take a breather.. you'll never get anywhere. TAP is a very good league. Is it the best? NO, but it's not the worst. The two best things are call your pocket & Valley Forge.
FLICKit said:
Flick, I have played TAP for a long time now and have been a victim too most of the points you have made. I have saw 3's with a 10 & 2 record and not move up.
I have watched a 3 shoot with a stroke of a seven. And let's not even mention the use of english. This 3 from what I hear give's weight to a desent player in the pool hall.
Although I agree with most of your points you might want to take a breather.. you'll never get anywhere. TAP is a very good league. Is it the best? NO, but it's not the worst. The two best things are call your pocket & Valley Forge.
I thought I was done posting on this thread but after talking to Robert in Arizona I had to post to FLICKIT.
It seems his name is John C. and he was thrown out of TAP in Az. and barred from their message board as well for, for lack of a better term, being a anal retentive asshole. So he ran back to the APA there, kissed butt and got on the board of directors or whatever you want to call it that fixes bad handicaps and has been known to go into bars and tear down TAP posters. So it seems that the APA took the low lifes that TAP doesn't want. I knew it all along what I was dealing with here. I have seen to many times before. It seems that is the MO you people operate by.
By the way, Robert said you made a suggestion along with alot of other players about the MVP list. But hey, if it makes you feel better, TAP will give you the credit.
SO TO WRAP IT UP....YOUR BADMOUTHING TAP BECAUSE YOU GOT THROWN OUT OF TAP. STAY IN THE APA. THAT'S WHERE YOU ANY POCKET ASSHOLES BELONG.
It seems his name is John C. and he was thrown out of TAP in Az. and barred from their message board as well for, for lack of a better term, being a anal retentive asshole. So he ran back to the APA there, kissed butt and got on the board of directors or whatever you want to call it that fixes bad handicaps and has been known to go into bars and tear down TAP posters. So it seems that the APA took the low lifes that TAP doesn't want. I knew it all along what I was dealing with here. I have seen to many times before. It seems that is the MO you people operate by.
By the way, Robert said you made a suggestion along with alot of other players about the MVP list. But hey, if it makes you feel better, TAP will give you the credit.
SO TO WRAP IT UP....YOUR BADMOUTHING TAP BECAUSE YOU GOT THROWN OUT OF TAP. STAY IN THE APA. THAT'S WHERE YOU ANY POCKET ASSHOLES BELONG.
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Sam at TAP said:
LOL.... That is way way way inaccurate. Nice try....
Really got under your skin on that one...
You wanted to play the blame game, and now you've surely blown your top.
Never afraid to go into details, if you really wanna take the challenge. But, you've lost many a discussions, when it comes to details...
Doubt you're really up to that challenge...
Sam at TAP said:
Thanks for calling me a lowlife and an Any Pocket Asshole. I have read alot of these posts and have thought that FLICKit was pushing it but at least he is
not representing a league.
Are you high within the TAP organization?
I would suggest not lumping people together. I would also suggest that
you go back and read your posts. I think you got a little carried away.
You do nothing but talk down to players in the APA and about their system.
Thats no way to win over anyone. If you have a better product or even
think you have a better product then market it as another option and a better one but INVITE players to try it out and see for themselves. I know that my impression of TAP is not high now solely based on this thread.
I knew nothing about it beforehand. Now if you had simply stated that you think the handicapping is better than the APA and that you would love for
APA players to come try your league and see how great it is then I would have listened and would have been intriqued. Instead its more of a turnoff.
TAP and APA can coexist very easily. Theres plenty of business for both.
As for your growth rate thats simple. Its a new product. Not that its
bad but rather it has to go up and will grow at a high rate until a leveling
period and then TAP will have to spawn new growth.
Remember you are stealing players from the APA so the lowlife talk is a bit over the edge. Its still bar room pool. I highly doubt that TAP has broken
open the doors and has built its growth on "new to league pool" players.
Even you will have to admit that most of what FLICKit said in his post about starting a league the TAP way is true. Why was TAP formed? To add to a system that some felt was flawed. Its not like it was an independent idea.
The founders felt that they could fix what they thought was wrong with another system. Nothing wrong with that.
I wish TAP all the luck in the world but the impression you are leaving on me and I think the majority of players that have read this thread is not a positive
one.
frankncali >>>>> I guess a lowlife Any Pocket Asshole ...please dont tell
my mom. Just being a pool player was hard enough for her to handle.
I didn't call you a low life. I have a lot of friends that play in my league and the APA that are not low lifes. I was calling Flick a low life. It was only directed at him. I have been dealing with these kinds of people for years. The kind that hide behind a computer and post misinformation about TAP. And I am not trying to win anyone over. I never posted on anything about recruiting for TAP. I never tried to sale any licenses or anything close to that. I don't have to. The numbers that are coming into TAP stand on their own merit. Locally I have gotten alot of interest in APA players quitting that league and coming over to TAP. In fact, when I visited some teams they were glad and excited I stopped in. One player even sent me a e mail headed "Save me from APA hell". I expect a 30% increase in teams in my area this year. I would bet the APA here isn't expecting any growth at all and will in fact lose teams. You keep saying we are stealing APA players. We are not holding a gun to their heads. They make their own choice. You people act like the the APA owns these players. It's a free country and it's their right to choose. It's business. McDonald's doesn't cry that BK took some of their customers but instead they try to market different products to get them back. That's why these APA lowlifes like Flick get all upset. I posted early on that I didn't want to get in a pissing match with anyone on TAP vs. APA but they always seem to try and get it going. Read my earlier posts. I tried to explain what TAP is doing and is about. I didn't come after the APA but only stated that I thought TAP is better. I am entitled to my opinion, right?
Remember Flick, you can rip all the TAP posters down and lie about who you are. But it won't stop a better league from growing. I called you out and now people here will know why you post anti TAP. Because your not wanted in that league.
To Frank, I did what you said and reread over my posts and no where in there did I ever say or try to recruit anyone for TAP. When someone like FLICK stated that "TAP was a dysfunctional group" I came at him. I am not going to let a low life cut my friends and myself down on a public forum and not say a thing. He is anti TAP. And I am anti APA. I don't try to hide it. I now know where he stands and he knows where I stand. I never tried to talk you into playing TAP. I never tried to recruit anyone on this board.
The bottom line is this. TAP is growing and not because it is that new or because of me or any one person. It's that good and it stands on it's own. The people and players that know me in TAP know what I am about. I have had the responsibility handed to me to co direct some of TAP's biggest events, this includes the team and singles events in Valley Forge. My integrity among the people that know me is not doubted. Those are the people that I hold their views of me in high regard. Not any of you on this board except for the ones I know personally like SKESS. If he sees this, he can tell you what I am about.
Remember Flick, you can rip all the TAP posters down and lie about who you are. But it won't stop a better league from growing. I called you out and now people here will know why you post anti TAP. Because your not wanted in that league.
To Frank, I did what you said and reread over my posts and no where in there did I ever say or try to recruit anyone for TAP. When someone like FLICK stated that "TAP was a dysfunctional group" I came at him. I am not going to let a low life cut my friends and myself down on a public forum and not say a thing. He is anti TAP. And I am anti APA. I don't try to hide it. I now know where he stands and he knows where I stand. I never tried to talk you into playing TAP. I never tried to recruit anyone on this board.
The bottom line is this. TAP is growing and not because it is that new or because of me or any one person. It's that good and it stands on it's own. The people and players that know me in TAP know what I am about. I have had the responsibility handed to me to co direct some of TAP's biggest events, this includes the team and singles events in Valley Forge. My integrity among the people that know me is not doubted. Those are the people that I hold their views of me in high regard. Not any of you on this board except for the ones I know personally like SKESS. If he sees this, he can tell you what I am about.
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Sam at TAP said:
Wow!
You're really on tilt now. You're all over the place.
Easy to spew, when you want to avoid the details...
First, what misinformation about TAP are you referring to?
Just FYI, many players (beginner, intermediate, and especially advanced) have left TAP, due to reasons already stated. You can talk numbers or percentages all you want and try to skew them however you want. It's the way you are, it's what's expected.
This was a thread titled tell me about TAP. So, I posted a couple of major concerns about the TAP scoring and handicap system. My message has been consistent. And everytime you've tried to challenge that message, I've followed it up with details and facts. That's what discussion threads are.
In your own words...
Sam at TAP said:
I said that "it's a reflection of dysfunctional organizations.. when they can't manage there basic financial accounting". I'll stand by that statement.
You've done nothing but try to spin and deceive. You say you're not involved in the politics. You have assaulted and cast stones at every opportunity that you could. And then you get all bent outta shape, when I point out the similarities with TAP being based on the APA system.
My message has been clear and consistent.
FLICKit said:
Unlike yours.
Sam at TAP said:
Sam at TAP said:
There are many other details that you misconstrue. Maybe it's because you don't know all the details, so you don't know what you're talkin about, or maybe you do know the details, and you can't keep the facts straight.
As I say, it's all about the details.... You really don't want to get into the details.
Flick it,
You forgot a few things that TAP offers;
How about a 1 in 8 chance of going to Nationals instead of 1 in how many ?
What about once you get to Nationals? Sure the pay out is less with TAP, but you are competing against less teams. The chance of winning a nice amount of money is much better! And Valley Forge more than makes up that difference!
What about a 9 ball league where you shoot Texas Express, not some crazy point system where making the 9 ball doesn't necessarily win?
What about half the players weekly dues staying right there in their local league, to be spent on them how THEY see fit & not going into one deep pocket?
How about an 8 team division that sends a team to nationals every year & holds a "Best of the Rest" tourney for the remaining 7 teams with a $1000.00 purse?
What about league parties, 8-on-the-Break/ Break & Run competitions, not to mention weekly singles leagues?
I could go on but I won't. Show me how this was copied from the APA!
Sarge
You forgot a few things that TAP offers;
How about a 1 in 8 chance of going to Nationals instead of 1 in how many ?
What about once you get to Nationals? Sure the pay out is less with TAP, but you are competing against less teams. The chance of winning a nice amount of money is much better! And Valley Forge more than makes up that difference!
What about a 9 ball league where you shoot Texas Express, not some crazy point system where making the 9 ball doesn't necessarily win?
What about half the players weekly dues staying right there in their local league, to be spent on them how THEY see fit & not going into one deep pocket?
How about an 8 team division that sends a team to nationals every year & holds a "Best of the Rest" tourney for the remaining 7 teams with a $1000.00 purse?
What about league parties, 8-on-the-Break/ Break & Run competitions, not to mention weekly singles leagues?
I could go on but I won't. Show me how this was copied from the APA!
Sarge
Sarge said:
I also think its very hard to make nationals in APA but in all fairness its not
like TAP is close to the total number of teams the APA has.
IF TAP grows to the size of the APA there will be changes and thats okay. There has to be.
The point system in APA 9ball is crazy but its good. Its a fairer league than
8ball IMO. Lower level player really have a chance to not only compete but
they can win and win big. It wont happen often but in 8 ball usually it only happens when the high rated player LOSES the game. Its a different
game but so is one pocket, last pocket 8 ball, straight pool, snooker and all the other variations.
The APA experience seems to vary largely by area and by LO.
Here in my area the players are rated correctly or at least close to it. Every now and then a new player joins and he has a few easier matches until
he goes up.
We have tournaments regularly and once a year theres a trip planned and taken by the area players. Last year was Cabo.
The APA is what the players and the LO make of it.
I play APA and think its alright but at the same time I dont put down any
other league. They can all survive together.
TAP (and any other league) has benefited greatly from the APA starting it off.
They had the groundbreaking "fun" trying to build something.
Not that I think the APA is perfect by any stretch. I question the upper APA
minds and some of their decisions but its still their league.
The BCA is good, the APA sucks. 
J/K!!! You know how I feel so I will just say that it is true, everyone has their own personal prefereces and to each their own. Now go quit the APA and join a real league like the BCA. 
J/K!!! You know how I feel so I will just say that it is true, everyone has their own personal prefereces and to each their own. Now go quit the APA and join a real league like the BCA. 
to each his own,,,,don't care much for league play,,,,if everyone was honest, we wouldn't need lawyers, or police, etc.,,,FWIW
not taking sides on the issue, but a few of the things I learned in basic statistics at college were : generic definition of statistics = 'lying with numbers',,,,,,,be aware of the 'con' in convince,,,,,watch for the 'sin' in sincere,,,
until someone comes up with a system that legitimately handicaps players, I'll just play for the fun and money in tourneys,,,,I've been a part of different leagues and all have problems,,,,when operators/players don't know all the rules or choose to play by their own misinterpreted version of the rules, things just won't work !,,,,JMHO
not taking sides on the issue, but a few of the things I learned in basic statistics at college were : generic definition of statistics = 'lying with numbers',,,,,,,be aware of the 'con' in convince,,,,,watch for the 'sin' in sincere,,,
until someone comes up with a system that legitimately handicaps players, I'll just play for the fun and money in tourneys,,,,I've been a part of different leagues and all have problems,,,,when operators/players don't know all the rules or choose to play by their own misinterpreted version of the rules, things just won't work !,,,,JMHO