After all the 'I did this first' harumphing, I discovered an interesting picture in the First Edition of The Blue Book of Pool Cues. According to the BB, Viking made these same rings back in 1996 at the very latest (the copyright date of the book).
Thank you Atlas Billiards!!!!!!
- Thread starter scdiveteam
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Remember the Hangover 2? The guy who did Mike Tyson's tattoo tried to sue for it being used without his permission......
and lost...
and lost...
I posted a thread in the Cue Gallery about who did what first and listed a bunch of stuff that was done in the late 1800s by B.Finck according to the catalog scans in the Billiard Encyclopedia.
But the larger point is that SO WHAT?
So what if you were first to do something?
For everything we do in our lives someone had to be the first to do it. But does a pool cue get made without using dozens of techniques that other people did first?
No. It does not.
All this talk about patents and copyrights and being upset because someone copied something does not consider that without copying we wouldn't even be here having this conversation because there would not BE 700 cue makers in the USA.
Einstein said if I have a dollar and I give it to you then I am one dollar poorer and you are one dollar richer. But if I have an idea and I give it to you then I am no poorer and you are one idea richer.
It does hurt when you work on a design or a method and someone knocks you off and does not even give you credit for it. That stings. But on the other hand I personally feel incredibly proud when I created something that others like enough to copy.
And the thing about who did it first is irrelevant in the sense that credit should be given to where the inspiration came from. To me this where Rick messed up. If I have never done something before and I got the idea from someone else then I give credit.
For example we tooled the inside rim of a case we did for Ralf Ganz. To my knowledge no other other case maker ever did that. The inspiration to do it came from looking at the belts that Peter Main does. Peter tools the INSIDE of his belts with beautiful scroll work. I don't know if Peter pioneered this or not but his belts is the first place I ever saw it. So he gets the credit.
Another one is a case we do called the Mason case which was inspired by a small fly fishing fly case done by Arne Mason. When I introduced that case on AZB I did a big write up giving Arne credit and providing links to his leather work.
And the same applies to anything I do. I have ZERO shame in taking anything from anyone that I feel will make our cases better.
I have been asked at least a dozen times to copy Jack Justis. And by copy I mean that people have asked me to build them a case that substantially looks like a specific Justis that they have seen and like. They have sent me pictures and wanted it pretty much with no deviation. In every single case I have flat out refused to copy Jack's decorative work.
Because I find that doing so would add nothing to our work and instead be only a cheap way to get a sale.
BUT
What I do is to ask the customer to allow me to make a case that has some of the elements of style that Jack's cases do but with our own flavor. And WHEN that is done I am sure to give Jack credit for the customer's initial impulse.
Here is an example of such.
A customer asked me to duplicate this case made by Jack for Efren.
This is what we made. http://www.jbcases.com/gillian.html
You will notice that I did not use Jack's signature arrowheads. I consider that to be something Jack does that is "his" and any use of such is not because I want to or because I think it looks good but only because someone else wants a Justis look but doesn't want to order from him.
Having said that I do think that Jack's use of straight lines and arrowhead is classy and gives the cases a nice clean look. IF I ever decided to try my hand at it then I would be the first to give Jack full credit for the design style that he created.
And so now this brings us to the point of professional courtesy.
Well, first things first, if you are selling your wares then you are in competition with everyone else selling the same goods. This isn't a kumbaya world where you stake out a claim to one "look" and no one else will ever do that style just because they are being professionally courteous to you.
However there IS a certain amount of honor among thieves that is present in every profession. Most artist don't slavishly copy other artist's work. They may take an element here or there but they don't copy. They try as Picasso said, to steal the essence of the artist they admire rather than to simply imitate the work.
So now ask yourself ethically where is the line? No copying, some copying, full copying?
Because let's face reality, copying happens. Let's leave the construction out of it and focus on decoration. Anytime you make a ring, make a point, inlay a window or a dot someone did it before you did.
Drexler did a very nice video where he highlights many cues that have inlays that form images. He is very proud of this and calls it inlaid marquetry. Well, although he is inlaying the parts the result is the same appearance as traditional marquetry. The use of shapes to form images. This type of work is thousands of years old and is also present in stone work. In cues it was done more than a 120 years ago and Longoni revived it on cues probably 15 years ago.
Paul didn't credit Longoni or any other maker with the inspiration because the technique of marquetry is well known. No real need to give credit to any other maker for that. But if it were me then I would have acknowledged Longoni's cues and the cues from the 1800's because I personally have seen them and they would have inspired me to try it on cues as well.
So to me professional courtesy is that you respect another man's efforts and his signature style by not working in it UNLESS you really want to work in it and THEN you should give credit to that man for inspiring you and your work. You should not copy or clone but you should try to bring your own flavor to the style. Don't act like you invented a method or discovered it first if you know for sure that you did not. Don't allow yourself to take praise for another person's style without acknowledging them.
When someone says to me that they like something we did and I know that what they like is primarily an element that came from somewhere else I will generally let them know where to go to see the original inspiration.
The fact of it is that you cannot fault a human being for being so inspired by something that they see that they want to try it for themselves. Almost all creatures survive through imitation. We are taught to imitate when growing up. We are taught to imitate successful people, we are taught the proper techniques to do any job. We are also taught to try and build on those techniques and improve them.
So honestly how can you condemn a person for seeing a ring that is cool and wanting to try it?
The concept that ideas belong to anyone is not a good one. Everyone has ideas. Where do those ideas come from? They come from looking at the world and having a thought that something they see could be better if only x was done. So they require a foundation in other people's work.
I could speak about this for hours. In 20 years of doing this I have gone the whole gamut. I have seen my case designs knocked off verbatim, I have seen my ad copy stolen, I have seen my competitors taking my signature elements, I have seen my own customers copy my work, have seen people I trusted send my cases off to be copied. I have fought a trademark fight and spent $40,000 doing it.
Although I have without question developed many new techniques in cue case making, many of which are found in cases of all brands, I am often labeled a knockoff artist. I have also been in factories which have specialized in ONLY knocking off other people's work.
And I have seen many factories evolve from being knockoff shops to innovating in their own right. Only to feel the sting when they do come up with something cool and it gets knocked off by a competitor.
Then it's funny to see them suddenly wanting to patent everything and sue people for copying everything.
So what I want to leave you with is this.
As proud and possessive as you may be for developing something cool I submit that you can be more proud for bringing something cool to the world for the whole world to enjoy and build on. If you want to protect your creations legally and are willing to go after infringers then do so. But always remember all the shoulders that you yourself stand on and give them credit.
So what? I was pointing out that neither of the people making these pretty rings were the first to make them. Getting angry over someone else making these rings is pointless when a third party has already made them, on a production cue no less, and 15 years ago at that. May we please stack the pointlessness a little higher?
Oh I am sorry I wasn't angry. I was saying so what as just a lead in for the discussion.
I really need to watch how I type - I honestly wasn't angry I just wanted to put my thoughts out there and used your post to lead in. My apologies.
I think you hit the nail right on the head here. I would be willing to bet that Rick had no recollection of Jake's rings when he made a small modification to the ring design that he has been using for years. I can understand why Jake would feel infringed upon, but just because this is a design element that he is known for locally, doesn't mean that everyone in the country is aware of it. Personally, I have never seen it before. I think this was an honest mistake that could have been worked out like gentlemen with a simple phone call or PM.
Before Wilbur and Orville Wright made the first powered flight, there were crazies all over the world strapping wings on their arms and jumping off cliffs. They probably weren't text messaging and emailing each other to keep everyone abreast of their progress.
Me, I wouldn't have wanted to be the first test pilot for a parachute.
Just way to much stuff to go wrong in your favor. I know a guy that didn't pull his main until 2200 ft and then when he pulled the reserve, he still got to do a face plant at a very high speed. He is still with us but he has a limp now.
Me, I wouldn't have wanted to be the first test pilot for a parachute.
Just way to much stuff to go wrong in your favor. I know a guy that didn't pull his main until 2200 ft and then when he pulled the reserve, he still got to do a face plant at a very high speed. He is still with us but he has a limp now.
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Wilbur and Orville as well as having funny names..... were not the first to fly an airplane......
First flight in a powered airplane: Gustave Whitehead, May 1899, August 14, 1901, January 1902 (newspaper and eyewitness reports - not officially recognised by mainstream)
First use of concrete runway: Gustave Whitehead 1901
First controlled flight in a powered airplane: Richard Pearse, March 1903 (eyewitness reports - not officially recognised by mainstream).
First controlled, powered, sustained airplane flight: Wright brothers, December 17, 1903 (photographed, eyewitnesses).
First circular flight in a powered airplane: Wilbur Wright, September 20, 1904.
First heavier-than-air flight of more than 25 meters in Europe, winner of the Archdeacon Prize: Alberto Santos-Dumont in his "14 Bis", October 23, 1906 in Paris).
They were not attacked on the forum.............. LOL
Just saying
Kim