The BCAPL and break/jump tip legality

CrownCityCorey

CrownCityCorey

Sock it to 'em!
Silver Member
I have a question, having recently tested some of the alleged leather break/jump tips on the market today, should a maker/manufacturer not somehow prove that their tip meets the legality (non ball damaging) specs as set forth by the BCA Pool Leagues?
 
So you tested LEATHER tips to see if they passed the 'no phenolic tip' rule?
Are you saying that there are some LEATHER tips that do not meet the requirements of being LEATHER?

I am so confused.
 
I think it depends who owns the tip making company and what influence they have on rule makers - the BCA in this instance. Isn't that how most pool decisions are made?

Ok, ok, that's a little jaded...

Yes Corey, in a more perfect pool world there should be a standardized test. In golf they implemented the COR (Coefficent of resistance) to measure the trampoline affect of metal-wood faces. I'd think there'd be an instrument that could readily measure tip hardness. Fair is fair.
 
CrownCityCorey said:
I have a question, having recently tested some of the alleged leather break/jump tips on the market today, should a maker/manufacturer not somehow prove that their tip meets the legality (non ball damaging) specs as set forth by the BCA Pool Leagues?
Click to expand...

Corey,

Leather tips are allowed...However, if you still want more clarification, you should call the BCAPL office.

(702) 719-7665

S.
 
This isn't meant as indelicately as it sounds, but...

Are you "indirectly", specifically, targeting the Samsara JB tip since it is a competitor for Tiger Products...
I'm using the Samsara tip, and I think it's the best thing going. I'd use it if phenolic were still legal. As a matter of fact, I was using it before the rule change.

Using the term "alleged" carries a connotation that begs the above question...imo.
 
CrownCityCorey said:
should a maker/manufacturer not somehow prove that their tip meets the legality (non ball damaging) specs as set forth by the BCA Pool Leagues?
Click to expand...

Seeing as the rule no longer says anything about being non-ball damaging I don't think it really matters. The rule is now plain and simple, contact surface must be leather.

Brian
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
Yes Corey, in a more perfect pool world there should be a standardized test. In golf they implemented the COR (Coefficent of resistance) to measure the trampoline affect of metal-wood faces. I'd think there'd be an instrument that could readily measure tip hardness. Fair is fair.
Click to expand...

That sounds awesome. Any vids anywhere of this?

There is also in golf a test using an Oscilloscope to measure the vibration of club shafts (determining on a scale whippy-stiff).

Both of these types of test/measurements would be great to have in Billiards.
 
should a maker/manufacturer not somehow prove that their tip meets the legality (non ball damaging) specs as set forth by the BCA Pool Leagues?
Click to expand...

Corey,

IMO the answer is YES they should, BUT only if they want their product OK'd to be able to play in the BCAPL national events.

Otherwise, why bother? the BCAPL currently only sanctions about 70,000 players under their pool leagues. The National events only account for approximately 10,000 players.

The APA, TAP, VNEA and other leagues do not prohibit the phenolic tip break cue. These orgs only represent about 300,000 players.

Then there are the Amateur and Semi-Pro tours in the Mid-West and East Coast that account for maybe up to 10,000 total players on a yearly basis.. and to my knowledge they do not prohibit phenolic tip break cues.
 
Corey,
You might know this but I was one of the first people to know about the decision of banning phenolic for jb cues. I was on the phone with Bill Stock right after the decision was made.
What triggered these issues was some G10 tips used in Vegas this year that damaged some of the ball sets. It is unfortunate that they are screwing up industry equipment and the billiard industry instead of implementing rules and standards for tips.
 
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I erred a hair. It's Coefficient of Restitution. You can google it as I did and you'll find a lot of hi tech gobbily-gook. Here's one site that shows the testing equipment and discusses the topic of having and testing for the limit to the spring effect a golf club face can have:

http://www.eriesclubhouse.com/TIP_aug09.html
 
I am currently working on a government grant for $1.5 mil to resolve this issue. It is named "Project Hard On" and can be found in the Library of Congress. We want to catalog all tip materials and configurations that are hard on balls. Hence the project name. I will keep you all up to date.

Update: Since I cannot use humans to test these tips, I am having a hell of a time getting rats to pick up a standard cue and break the balls. More to come...
 
The statement of the BCA that any part of the tip that is of a phenolic material is not allowed to be used on a cue breaking balls IS pretty straight forward and simple. It begs the question, is the fiberglass G-10 a phenolic tip, is the carbon fiber tip a phenolic tip, etc., etc. ??? I understand that the word phenolic comes from the word phenol (a plastic resin component). Does anyone want to clarify the BCA rule that prohibits phenolic tips ?
 
I was also told this only applies to break cues. Jumpers can still use phonilic. Is that true?
 
nancewayne said:
The statement of the BCA that any part of the tip that is of a phenolic material is not allowed to be used on a cue breaking balls IS pretty straight forward and simple. It begs the question, is the fiberglass G-10 a phenolic tip, is the carbon fiber tip a phenolic tip, etc., etc. ??? I understand that the word phenolic comes from the word phenol (a plastic resin component). Does anyone want to clarify the BCA rule that prohibits phenolic tips ?
Click to expand...

Wow, I can't believe that no one has called the office...

But here is copied and pasted from BCAPL rule book on tip specification.

Link also provided. http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/Rules/EquipmentSpecs/tabid/228/Default.aspx

Cues
a. The width of the cue tip must not exceed 14 millimeters. There is no minimum width.
b. The weight of the cue must not exceed 25 ounces. There is no minimum weight.
c. The length of the cue must be at least 40 inches. There is no maximum length.
d. The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material. The cue tip on break cues must be made of leather with no non-leather materials added to the contacting surface.
Paragraph (d) changed to this text 6/18/2009
e. (deleted)

However, the phenolic tip ban for the break stick is enforced only at the "BCAPL National Championship". One may continue to use them at local leagues or anywhere else, for that matter.

**You may use Phenolic tip on your jump cue at the National Championship.

S.
 
Why is that Mark,
Phenolic tips do no damage the balls, G10 will.
Why isn't there a process that certifies tips?
Do you realize that decision kills some of the billiard industry instead of supporting it?

Mark Griffin said:
Here is the BCAPL position on break cue tips. It is the second paragraph down on the page.


http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/LeaguePolicies/tabid/108/Default.aspx


The tip needs to be leather. No non-leather surface may come into contact with the cue ball.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL

PS - Bill Stock will be back in town in a couple of days and will normally answer these questions.
Click to expand...
 
BENFICA said:
Why is that Mark,
Phenolic tips do no damage the balls, G10 will.
Why isn't there a process that certifies tips?
Do you realize that decision kills some of the billiard industry instead of supporting it?
Click to expand...

Phenolic tips on break cues "DO" damage the cue ball. I can show you my cue ball and "I'm just a girl!":rolleyes:

S.
 
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