The Breedloves - Jeanette Lee and George

[Sweet Marissa]

You are showing your true colors again Marissa. I can't believe you would say such a thing. To the contrary on the PGA tour you would not find a tour member that would not call a penalty stroke on himself(same for the women on the LPGA) ............

It is called integrity

How does witnessing others' lack of veracity have any bearing on my own? I've called fouls on myself, but I'm saying I've seen others try to get away with it and have had to call them on it. They try to justify their actions by saying their opponent didn't see it, which, to me, only further proves their own dishonesty.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Know where you're coming from here. Anyway, I think we understand both the ideals and the realities, and we've had a constructive debate. I know I've considered your point of view, and hope you've considered mine. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out. Have a good evening.

Ditto. I was only going on my limited experiance anyways, plus my degree is in philosophy not psychology.

regards

 

[jjinfla]

Here is a foul I see all the time where players do not call on themselves. Failure to contact a rail after contact with the object ball. The shooter just walks away and if the opponent does not see it, or is daydreaming, the foul is not called.

In fact that is the foul that Manalo didn't call on himself.

But now all of a sudden all the pill poppers, and snorters, and drunks are saints and you expect them to call fouls on themselves? Right. And you also are going to leave your cue in plain sight while you go to the john because you trust every pool player?

But perhaps the IPT will draw only the honest players. And they are expected to call a foul on themselves and the opponent is not even allowed to call a foul. I wonder if he can even ask the player if that was a foul.

Jake

 

[watchez]

The IPT only has the honest pool players???

 

[sjm]

But now all of a sudden all the pill poppers, and snorters, and drunks are saints and you expect them to call fouls on themselves? Right. And you also are going to leave your cue in plain sight while you go to the john because you trust every pool player?

This thread is about how professionals will behave in a professional setting. What happens in the amateur and bar ranks is another subject, where both ignorance of the rules, less attentiveness, and intoxication can contribute to very different results.

As for Manalos' foul, the call was obviously a very difficult one, and one poster on this forum stated with complete certainty that it was not a foul, despite the fact that the vudeo later corroborated that it was. How a super-close call is handled is also not what this thread is about.

This thread is about when a professional commits a rules infraction that is obvious, and the morality surrounding whether he/she should turn himself in.

 

[sjm]

Where do you see that I condone cheating?? I think any player should have the integrity to call a foul on himself, but honestly I haven't seen that as much as I'd like to.

I agree 100%. All you have done is share your own experiences and have said nothing that would suggest that you condone cheating.

 

[Snapshot9]

Honest mistakes ...

It more or less comes down to whether the player
made an honest mistake or whether they are 'playing'
you. You have to determine that, and like it was said
before, when the stakes are high, some have less than
stellar values. But sometimes, a player will honestly not
think they made a mistake even when they did. I have,
and I am sure this has probably happened to you, or
sometime when an opponent called a foul when it truly
wasn't.
Have you ever been accused of 'sharking' when you really
weren't, maybe just an unconscious little habit of yours
when playing or you were just tense? and you really were
not aware that you were doing it?
It is nice to believe in your fellow man or woman, but in Pool,
and from my experiences, 'Trust in God, all others pay cash'.

 

[jjinfla]

This thread is about when a professional commits a rules infraction that is obvious, and the morality surrounding whether he/she should turn himself in.

If it is an obvious foul, one the whole world sees, then it is easy for them to call on themselves. You probably would have to search far and wide to find a pro who wouldn't call it on himself. (Forget Earl and Karen)

It is the foul that a pro knows he committed that no one else sees that would test his mettle. And of course we will never know if they have all turned themselves in because only they know they committed it.

How about the pro who thinks he may have committed a foul but in reality he didn't, should he call a foul on himself? Just to be on the safe side?

If there are refs then should they have complete control of the game and the players not be allowed to call fouls? If not, then why bother to even have refs? Just let the two players play and call their own fouls.

I personally believe that if you are going to have a professional match complete with refs then the ref should instruct the players to just play their game and he will decide if a foul is committed or not. If the ref does not see the foul, and does not call it, then tough, there is no foul and the game continues.

I just don't think it is fair to the pro who has enough on his mind worrying how to play the match to win to also worry about having to call a foul on himself. That is not his job. His job is to play the match. The ref's job is to call the match.

Jake

 

[ScottR]

Where do you see that I condone cheating?? I think any player should have the integrity to call a foul on himself, but honestly I haven't seen that as much as I'd like to.

You are correct. I reread your original post and I had misunderstood it. My bad.

I, too, have seen a lot of people try to get by with stuff at the table. But, NOT at the "true" professional level.

I think SJM is right. The Pros are going to act like professionals and the state of the game will continue to improve.

 

[MVPCues]

This is a very disturbing argument. Every player on the IPT will be playing for more money than they ever have before. Are you suggesting that we should expect more attempts to cheat because of it, that the size of the paychecks will drive players to unethical and unsportsmanlike practices? If that happens, players may squander the biggest chance they've ever had to build a solid image for their sport and for themselves. I say that it won't happen that way, and that IPT players will recognize the importance of this opportunity to place themselves and pro pool in a positive light.

I'm of the opinion that players uninclined to call fouls on themselves, regardless of the stakes, in the interest of preserving the game's integrity don't deserve the opporutnity to play on the IPT.

Have a little faith. I think the players will surprise you by competing with complete integrity.

Regarding George and Jeanette, they are a class act. I have only spoken with them before, but I am not surprised at all that George called a foul on himself knowing it would probably cost him the match.

Regarding the idea that all of the pool players will suddenly become brutally honest during events and call every foul on themselves, and if they don't they are cheating is in my opinion not realistic. If there is a referee during the match, and a person does not call a foul on himself, and the referee misses it, I don't call it cheating. If the player is asked about it and he denies it, that is dishonest, but the player keeping his mouth shut and not saying anything isn't cheating.

Something people fail to mention regarding the skins game is when Earl was asked about it by the other player, he stated the referee did not see it. He did not deny the foul, and he did not intentionally foul to move the balls to his favor (which would have been cheating). He showed poor sportsmanship perhaps by not picking up the cue ball and hand delivering it to his opponent, but he didn't cheat, and he didn't try and cover it up.

Karen Corr did the same thing on a jump shot during a televised match, and I don't read anyone accusing her of cheating. She jumped a ball, but the cue ball didn't quite clear and brushed the ball she was blocked by. The referee missed it, Karen had a look of "Damn I fouled" on her face for a moment, then she realised the referee didn't call it, and she walked away from the table without saying a word. Had her opponent made mention of it, it would really be interesting to know how she would have handled it, because she certainly did not volunteer the ball hand to the other player. Also, the announcer didn't say oh what a terrible show of sportsmanship. The announcer just said something like "Wow, she fouled and the referee missed it." Nobody roasts Karen for not volunteering ball in hand or states how it ruined their image of her.

sjm, regarding "I'm of the opinion that players uninclined to call fouls on themselves, regardless of the stakes, in the interest of preserving the game's integrity don't deserve the opporutnity to play on the IPT."

so in your opinion Karen does not deserve to play on the IPT?

This is just my thoughts and opinions, not meant to start flame or put anyone down for anything.
Kelly

 

[sizl]

How does witnessing others' lack of veracity have any bearing on my own? I've called fouls on myself, but I'm saying I've seen others try to get away with it and have had to call them on it. They try to justify their actions by saying their opponent didn't see it, which, to me, only further proves their own dishonesty.

To me is seemed as if you was being boastful. Forgive me if my perception was off ,

 

[Tbeaux]

Here is a foul I see all the time where players do not call on themselves. Failure to contact a rail after contact with the object ball. The shooter just walks away and if the opponent does not see it, or is daydreaming, the foul is not called.

In fact that is the foul that Manalo didn't call on himself.


Jake

I'm guilty of this Jake but it's not intentional and probably not with most players. When I shoot I'm concentrating on anything but wether there's rail contact after OB contact. If called on it I never argue because I know my opponent is right , it's just not something I pay much attention to usually.

Terry

 

[Cameron Smith]

calling fouls when a rail is not touched

In this instance I think the onus should be on the opposing player. If there is a ref then never mind. But the opposing player should be watching the match for these types of situations, especially in key situations like safety exchanges where there is a large possibility for a foul.

If I am playing chess and I make a move that my opponent does not see because he/she is day dreaming, I will not point out the move. It is all part of the game in my opinion.

regards

 

[sjm]

sjm, regarding "I'm of the opinion that players uninclined to call fouls on themselves, regardless of the stakes, in the interest of preserving the game's integrity don't deserve the opporutnity to play on the IPT."

so in your opinion Karen does not deserve to play on the IPT?

This is just my thoughts and opinions, not meant to start flame or put anyone down for anything.
Kelly

This is a totally fair question. First, I am not aware of the incident with Corr, but I will take your word for it.

I'm of the opinion that everybody enters this new tour with a clean slate. Those that intend to play with integrity deserve their shot. Those that do not, in my opinion, are unworthy of this opportunity. So, at least for now, every one on the IPT tour deserves a shot to prove themselves worthy, because nobody's record has a blemish on it yet.

In my heart of hearts, I believe all the players of the IPT will realize that this opportunity is both unprecedented and irreplaceable, and will, as a group, raise their demeanor, etiquette, and sportsmanship to a level we'll all admire.

 

[MVPCues]

This is a totally fair question. First, I am not aware of the incident with Corr, but I will take your word for it.

I'm of the opinion that everybody enters this new tour with a clean slate. Those that intend to play with integrity deserve their shot. Those that do not, in my opinion, are unworthy of this opportunity. So, at least for now, every one on the IPT tour deserves a shot to prove themselves worthy, because nobody's record has a blemish on it yet.

In my heart of hearts, I believe all the players of the IPT will realize that this opportunity is both unprecedented and irreplaceable, and will, as a group, raise their demeanor, etiquette, and sportsmanship to a level we'll all admire.

I agree the players as a group will conduct themselves in a proofessional manner (we hope at least). I believe most know how great an oppurtunity it looks like it is shaping up to be for them and pool in general. I just think the bottom line is some (most?) will call fouls on themselves and some won't for already said reasons by several posters. I just don't think all of the latter are necessarily cheaters.

Hopefully KT won't skimp on having qualified referees and any occurances will be exceedingly rare!
Kelly

 

[Tbeaux]

I think from all the posts and differing views on this topic maybe all will agree that if a ref is present it's the refs job to call the fouls and if that is the case then just as in other sports if a player wants to admit to a foul fine but the ref cannot call that foul or act upon it if he/she didn't see it. If no ref is present then the players should be of a high enough moral character to call fouls on themselves as well as pay attention and challenge their opponent on fouls.????

Terry

By the way in the olden days refs could poll the audience about a foul, wouldn't that go over well today with backers and rabid fans sitting the rails.

 

[Sweet Marissa]

You are correct. I reread your original post and I had misunderstood it. My bad.

I, too, have seen a lot of people try to get by with stuff at the table. But, NOT at the "true" professional level.

I think SJM is right. The Pros are going to act like professionals and the state of the game will continue to improve.

To me is seemed as if you was being boastful. Forgive me if my perception was off

No problem... I can relate to reading or skimming through so many posts that it's easy to misread or misinterpret something.

 

[bomber]

Thank you sjm...i am so sick and tired of hearing about people calling fouls on themselves and how that is supposed to be a great thing...that is what is wrong with our sport...we shouldnt applaud people for playing fair...hell, you are suppose to play fair...it is necessary for the game for its players to have integrity...golfers on the proffesional level call fouls on themselves all the time and they dont make a fuss about it.

 

[Samiel]

BTW, I got to see some of Jeanette's last match in the IPT qualifier. She was playing Sylver Ochoa (I think JAM calls him the Sylver Bullet... ). Jeanette had been working on her 8-ball break earlier that morning with Jerry Briesath and seemed to be breaking them well, although I'm not sure how consistently she was making a ball.

Sylver, on the other hand, was breaking them with low speed and leaving the balls clustered near the bottom. If you were to talk with Jeanette, I'm sure she'd tell you this was very frustrating at times. What I saw between Sylver and Jeanette more of the match were furious safety battles. I don't think Sylver broke and ran once, but he ended up winning the match 10-9, so it was very close. I kind of thought Jeanette would end up ahead in this type of match because she plays straight pool quite often.

George is definitely a class act for calling the foul on himself. I too have seen players not call obvious fouls and George calling one on himself is definitely classy.

On a side note, I really thought Thomas Engert would get an IPT tour card. I watched both him and Alex on Saturday and I'd have to say that Engert's 8-ball game looked stronger to me. Doesn't Engert have a straight pool run in the upper 400s? Congrats to Alex and Jason Miller though for getting their tour cards!

 

[Sweet Marissa]

On a side note, I really thought Thomas Engert would get an IPT tour card. I watched both him and Alex on Saturday and I'd have to say that Engert's 8-ball game looked stronger to me. Doesn't Engert have a straight pool run in the upper 400s? Congrats to Alex and Jason Miller though for getting their tour cards!

I really thought Engert was going to win it, also. I hope to see him make the next one.