The DrDave fan thread

[Patrick Johnson]

Dave is the man. Our gamed lacked any video from which to learn until Pat Fleming and Accu-stats came along a little over thirty years ago.

Although Dave is following in the giant footsteps of Pat Fleming, opening up a wealth of video material from which modern players can learn, Dave has brought it all to a completely new and higher level by isolating and documenting key shots.

The best part of Dave's material is that it is about techniques and shots, and not so much about things like mental game, momentum, playing the score or other more qualitative subjects. The qualitative subjects are, of course, important, but Dave focuses on how to identify and execute a multitude of important shots on a pool table. Also important is that Dave thoroughly considers offense, defense, kicking, and jumping, making his collection of videos more comprehensive than any other of which I'm aware to date.

Dave is producing material that is very important to the documentation, analysis, and further development of the theory underlying superior execution of shots on a pool table. His work will teach, inspire, and motivate for many years to come.

Thank you for your kind post. I appreciate it. Although, to clarify, there are many other footsteps I have followed: Robert Byrne, Bob Jewett, Ron Shepard, Wayland Marlow, and Gustave Coriolis, just to name a few. All of these people have provided much knowledge and inspiration.

I agree wholeheartedly with both parts of this post (go Dave!) - and I'd add Mike Page to Dave's "AzB Brain Trust" list of highly qualified and highly appreciated sources of great pool knowledge and inspiration - every true thing I've ever said about pool was said first by them. Thanks to all of you!!

pj <- probly still left a few out
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

New proposal

how about using this thread to try to stump DrDave.

Its a common tradition in other circles that people try to "stump the expert"

one of the great mysteries that can turn into a standard experience for people learning pool the right way through a community

I accept the challenge.

is discussion of why a ball skids

That's easy. See the cling/skid/kick resource page for the answer.

or just falls out of place for no reason at all at random moments?

That's easy. It is leaning on a cloth imperfections or cloth fibers or dirt just on the verge of moving, and it finally gives way due to "creep" of the support or slight vibration (just like Tiger Woods' famous put dropping after hanging on a blade of grass on the extreme edge of the cup).

Is there really a ghost on the table?

No, but one can visualize the required "ghost-ball" target with good visualization skills and some practice.

Does DrDave believe in ghosts

No.

or string theory?

Yes.


You need to do better than that if you want to try to stump me.

 

[dr_dave]

I agree wholeheartedly with both parts of this post (go Dave!) - and I'd add Mike Page to Dave's "AzB Brain Trust" list of highly qualified and highly appreciated sources of great pool knowledge and inspiration - every true thing I've ever said about pool was said first by them. Thanks to all of you!!

pj <- probly still left a few out
chgo

Good point Pat. FYI, I've edited my post to include Mike Page. I thought of including you also due to the many insights and excellent illustrations you have contributed over the years, but I don't want the list to get too long (or your head to get too big).

Thanks,
Dave

 

[justnum]

Can DrDave recreate the delayed ball motion after a full rack?
I've tried but I need more precise position equipment.

you rack it and then 45 seconds later a ball moves, can you recreate that experiment 5 times in a row on camera?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Good point Pat. FYI, I've edited my post to include Mike Page. I thought of including you also due to the many insights and excellent illustrations you have contributed over the years, but I don't want the list to get too long (or your head to get too big).

Thanks,
Dave

Thanks for the thought, Dave, but you guys make all the real contributions - I just illustrate 'em.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Can DrDave recreate the delayed ball motion after a full rack?

I would prefer not try. It would take too long for the extremely rare situation to occur.

you rack it and then 45 seconds later a ball moves, can you recreate that experiment 5 times in a row on camera?

... only with video editing or an extremely large number of attempts (probably in the millions or billions).

 

[justnum]

I would prefer not try. It would take too long for the extremely rare situation to occur.




... only with video editing or an extremely large number of attempts (probably in the millions or billions).

Let's call it a draw

 

[measureman]

When I was learning to play in the early '60's knowledge was guarded for the most part.
The prevailing thought was dont teach anybody something because they will use it to beat you.
Most of what I learned was by watching great players of which there was a ton of them back then in the N.J. area.
But every now and then someone would tell me something but mostly I had to figure things out on my own.
People like Dr. Dave and others have accelerated the learning curve greatly by making so much once secret knowledge available on the net.
You young players have no idea how lucky you are.
And even now when I watch a Dr. Dave video once in awhile I think wow thats new to me and I've been playing for 60 years!
Even an old dog like me can learn a new trick.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Dr Dave has been an inspiration and benefit to many in our sport. Now...how many have contributed monetarily to this site??? Purchased from his store??? Or contributed to the junior scholarship program??? This is what makes it possible to continue.

 

[justnum]

Dr Dave has been an inspiration and benefit to many in our sport. Now...how many have contributed monetarily to this site...purchased from his store...or contributed to the junior scholarship program?? This is what makes it possible to continue.

people with money arent the ones that matter.

guilting people is not a 2021 value

 

[rikdee]

When I was learning to play in the early '60's knowledge was guarded for the most part.
The prevailing thought was dont teach anybody something because they will use it to beat you.
Most of what I learned was by watching great players of which there was a ton of them back then in the N.J. area.
But every now and then someone would tell me something but mostly I had to figure things out on my own.
People like Dr. Dave and others have accelerated the learning curve greatly by making so much once secret knowledge available on the net.
You young players have no idea how lucky you are.
And even now when I watch a Dr. Dave video once in awhile I think wow thats new to me and I've been playing for 60 years!
Even an old dog like me can learn a new trick.

100% agree. I wish a Dr. Dave and the internet had been around when I was 20. The instruction, match videos (including commentary) and the internet present far beyond the books I whored around to find many years ago. Kudos to Dave; he puts in an unimaginable amount of research and work.

 

[book collector]

I imagine the "dissecting" is great. There are many resources over the centuries about explaining stuff.

Then there are the people that can actually do it and re create the experiment.

Schools have been teaching standard subjects for years but some people like to enjoy discussing it live and in their own words. Not just a copy by value, some people like to talk about things through their own references. Or interpret it for personal meaning.

I am not trying to get spiritual.

I am just saying DrDave speaks English, there are many people that don't speak his English. Thats where the idea for this thread came from.

Disciples of DrDave thread but putting their own take on it. Its a tradition I learned at a community center.

Obviously you don't know the limit of what was available before Dr, Dave and Tor Lowerys teachings. Bob Byrne opened the door to the knowledge that was guarded by every decent pool player alive. that was in the late 70s early 80s before that it was mostly garbage. Most of the books were written by guys who couldn't play a lick . They just put a pool players name on it , like Mosconi Caras Lassiter Mizerak, it was almost worthless. I believe if you spent a couple of years 2 mastering all you could of those 2 guys stuff, you could be a pretty fair player.

 

[dr_dave]

I accept the challenge.

You need to do better than that if you want to try to stump me.

Here's a good question that might stump even some of the people who have a good understanding and feel for pool physics effects:

Why does using inside spin with a near-level cue help you narrow the follow angle with a cut shot (e.g., less than a 1/2-ball hit)? There are three reasons. Can you name all three?

Don't cheat. The answers are easy to find on my site.

For those who don't know and want to know the answers, they are here.

 

[justnum]

Obviously you don't know the limit of what was available before Dr, Dave and Tor Lowerys teachings. Bob Byrne opened the door to the knowledge that was guarded by every decent pool player alive. that was in the late 70s early 80s before that it was mostly garbage. Most of the books were written by guys who couldn't play a lick . They just put a pool players name on it , like Mosconi Caras Lassiter Mizerak, it was almost worthless. I believe if you spent a couple of years 2 mastering all you could of those 2 guys stuff, you could be a pretty fair player.

intro to physics on collisions in two dimensions is taught in high school physics.
In some advanced programs rotational dynamics is included.

I was more into physics first than pool. The application of applied force in two dimensions, how much do you need explained.

The Byrne book was what I grew up on and a few episodes of WPBA matches. After that most of the learning could be done by observation.
I dont want to argue with you.

to me physics diagrams from high school clearly explained how the pool table works

learning the technical knowledge was the fast part, having the physical discipline to perform those actions took me a lot longer to know about.

Thats why I call DrDave a good start. Having confidence in technical knowledge is important. There are other factors but I want to remain supportive of DrDave as a fan.

Decades from now imitators will use DrDave's style and not Grady because DrDave was on youtube while Grady is the "accu stats guy" (complete understatements)

 

[sjm]

I agree this is mostly accurate, but I do have quite a lot of resources dedicated to the mental game here:

Mental Game of Pool resource page​

including a video:

and a useful handout on the topic.

Enjoy,
Dave

I'll try not to hold this against you, Dave, LOL. Still, most of the qualitative and subjective subjects tangential to the game were documented at length in print long before there was much video of pool.

It's in the replaying and cataloging of the shots with attention to the principles behind them that video has revolutionized the learning process, and I feel your material leads the way in this respect.

 

[dr_dave]

I'll try not to hold this against you, Dave, LOL. Still, most of the qualitative and subjective subjects tangential to the game were documented at length in print long before there was much video of pool.

Fair enough. Agreed.

It's in the replaying and cataloging of the shots with attention to the principles behind them that video has revolutionized the learning process, and I feel your material leads the way in this respect.

Thanks again.

Happy New Year!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here's a good question that might stump even some of the people who have a good understanding and feel for pool physics effects:

Why does using inside spin with a near-level cue help you narrow the follow angle with a cut shot (e.g., less than a 1/2-ball hit)? There are three reasons. Can you name all three?

Don't cheat. The answers are easy to find on my site.

For those who don't know and want to know the answers, they are here.

Stumped me. I only got one right.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Stumped me. I only got one right.

You are an honest man. I think this is an amazing combination of non-intuitive effects for a such a simple shot. Like with many pool physics things, you don't really need to understand the effects ... you just need to know how to hit the shot. But it is still interesting to know why things work.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You are an honest man. I think this is an amazing combination of non-intuitive effects for a such a simple shot. Like with many pool physics things, you don't really need to understand the effects ... you just need to know how to hit the shot. But it is still interesting to know why things work.

I think you may be selling knowledge a little short here. For instance, the fact that inside spin reduces friction (and therefor throw, etc.) at fuller cut angles applies to more than the follow angle - as you mention it also affects aim, an example of the multi-purpose value of knowledge. "How" usually applies to one shot; "why" can apply to many.

pj
chgo