It would be interesting to see the rest of the study that ranked the players in various sports. In particular, the summary on Wikipedia shows only one parameter and one person for each sport. How far ahead of Arnold Palmer was Jack Nicklaus?
The Greatest Greatest
- Thread starter KMRUNOUT
- Start date
I would give the edge to Man o' War for a lot of reasons, but Secretariat will always be the greatest in my heart.
Buddy Rich may have been the most technically proficient drummer to ever live, but Tony Williams was by far the greatest drummer ever IMHO.
Tough to compare horses from different eras, but IMO no horse in the history of the world beats Secretariat in the Belmont on June 9, 1973:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfCMtaNiMDM
People also tend to forget that Sham ran the second fastest Kentucky Derby in history.
when looking a the best "brand" for worldwide recognition, respect, truthfulness, credibility and being loved in literally all places in the world.... there is only one....
ROGER FEDERER
He can match-up against a local player and the crowd roots for him! How strong is that!?
ROGER FEDERER
He can match-up against a local player and the crowd roots for him! How strong is that!?
I listened to some of Tony Williams Lifetime. He is indeed a monster. I got into that by way of John McLaughlin, certainly one of the best guitarists ever. I have only seen a few clips of Buddy Rich, usually doing solos. This doesn't really showcase the full talent of a drummer. I like to see the drums in the context of the music. To be honest, in terms of technical proficiency, I would have to put Neil Peart right up there. The independence he exhibits between all 4 limbs is just amazing. Also, the way he plays around with the timing of music is awesome. He can manipulate the timing and swing in odd time signatures. Dennis Chambers is pretty impressive too. And Billy Cobham.
KMRUNOUT
In terms of a single athletic *performance*, this might stand alone. I believe that any horse that has ever lived or will ever live was going to get beat, and BAD, that day.
KMRUNOUT
Every time I watch this, my heart flutters and I tear up. Such *greatness*. That horse *tries*. The jockey literally was just along for the ride. He pretty much just sat motionless. Poor Sham...wrong year to be born.
KMRUNOUT
We are getting pretty far afield here..After all. this is a pool related forum. The greatest in all other sports, will always be up for debate...But as far as cue sports are concerned, I honestly feel there are only two people worth considering as the GOAT!..Ronnie O'Sullivan and Efren Reyes.
Who knows where Ronnie's game would have gone, if he had had the exposure to the different pool games, and gambling, that Efren always enjoyed?..RO's unbelievable talent at snooker, plus his uncanny pocketing skills, and cue ball control, would have made a game like one pocket,seem almost like childs play for him.
But obviously, those are things we'll never know. There are a few 'also rans', like Strickland, Parica, Bustamonte,Alex, etc..But they are nowhere near the level that ER and RO demand!
PS..The one who comes closest might be Alex P.
Who knows where Ronnie's game would have gone, if he had had the exposure to the different pool games, and gambling, that Efren always enjoyed?..RO's unbelievable talent at snooker, plus his uncanny pocketing skills, and cue ball control, would have made a game like one pocket,seem almost like childs play for him.
But obviously, those are things we'll never know. There are a few 'also rans', like Strickland, Parica, Bustamonte,Alex, etc..But they are nowhere near the level that ER and RO demand!
PS..The one who comes closest might be Alex P.
From what I've read of Man of War, these 2 horses were very similar competitively. If I remember correctly, the only race Man of War lost, he stumbled badly out of the gate, falling far behind, and was still last at the last turn; and finished second, closing with every stride. So the book said.
As far as pool goes, as great as Efren was and is, my vote for GOAT would be Sigel. He simply dominated at a time when he was also surrounded by great players. Efren gets my vote for most spectacular shot maker of all time, but Sigel was rock solid and rarely had to come up with the spectacular.
I read that there was a restart, and while he was tuning around to address the starting line they prematurely dropped the starting ribbon. So, he was facing backward when the race began and still almost won! That was the beginning of Saratoga Race Track's reputation as "The Graveyard of Champions". And let's not forget, Secretariat also lost at Saratoga, to a horse named "Onion".
Things to consider when comparing these two great horses:
1. We don't know what track conditions were like back then. They may have been a bit slower than when Secretariat raced (although they certainly are slower today than in Secretariat's time, what with all the sand they add for drainage and cushioning). Regardless, many estimates say track conditions in general were a couple seconds slower than when Secretariat ran.
2. Man 'o War was so far ahead of his rivals that he was never really pushed to his limit. His owner was extremely protective of the great horse, which was why he never entered him in the Derby (a bit too soon for his horse). There were supposedly races where he was held back so hard he practically cantered to the finish line, and he still won. Who knows what he would have done if he was seriously challenged.
3. Man 'o War won a match race at 1 5/8 miles in 2:40 4/5 seconds, beating his rival by over 100 lengths! That's 800 feet in the lead as he crossed the finish line. The time was still a few seconds behind Secretariat's time at that distance, but as I said, we don't know what the conditions were that day.
4. Man 'o War carrying a lot of weight all the time, up to 20 pounds more than his nearest rival in some cases. Secretariat never carried more than 126 pounds. Man 'o War carried up to 139 pounds!
I had a good friend who was a jockey, and he told me that for every pound of extra weight, you can assume there would be about one length of difference at the finish line. That's like Earl giving all of his opponents the 7 out. Of course, we all know that Earl also carries a lot of weight, so...
Here's a somewhat rigorous comparison of the two that I came across while Googling both champions today. I have't read it all, but it looks really interesting.
http://www.truevine.net/members/sec@truevine.net/Legends/Paper.htm
Anyway, here's to great horses the world over. I used to work with TBs as a kid (West Creek Stables in upstate NY), and I love them to death. No other animal in the world has as much heart as a thoroughbred racehorse.
I read that there was a restart, and while he was tuning around to address the starting line they prematurely dropped the starting ribbon. So, he was facing backward when the race began and still almost won! That was the beginning of Saratoga Race Track's reputation as "The Graveyard of Champions". And let's not forget, Secretariat also lost at Saratoga, to a horse named "Onion".
Things to consider when comparing these two great horses:
1. We don't know what track conditions were like back then. They may have been a bit slower than when Secretariat raced (although they certainly are slower today than in Secretariat's time, what with all the sand they add for drainage and cushioning). Regardless, many estimates say track conditions in general were a couple seconds slower than when Secretariat ran.
2. Man 'o War was so far ahead of his rivals that he was never really pushed to his limit. His owner was extremely protective of the great horse, which was why he never entered him in the Derby (a bit too soon for his horse). There were supposedly races where he was held back so hard he practically cantered to the finish line, and he still won. Who knows what he would have done if he was seriously challenged.
3. Man 'o War won a match race at 1 5/8 miles in 2:40 4/5 seconds, beating his rival by over 100 lengths! That's 800 feet in the lead as he crossed the finish line. The time was still a few seconds behind Secretariat's time at that distance, but as I said, we don't know what the conditions were that day.
4. Man 'o War carrying a lot of weight all the time, up to 20 pounds more than his nearest rival in some cases. Secretariat never carried more than 126 pounds. Man 'o War carried up to 139 pounds!
I had a good friend who was a jockey, and he told me that for every pound of extra weight, you can assume there would be about one length of difference at the finish line. That's like Earl giving all of his opponents the 7 out. Of course, we all know that Earl also carries a lot of weight, so...
Here's a somewhat rigorous comparison of the two that I came across while Googling both champions today. I have't read it all, but it looks really interesting.
http://www.truevine.net/members/sec@truevine.net/Legends/Paper.htm
Anyway, here's to great horses the world over. I used to work with TBs as a kid (West Creek Stables in upstate NY), and I love them to death. No other animal in the world has as much heart as a thoroughbred racehorse.
I read most of the comparison of Secretariat to Man 'o War.
I did not understand a lot of it but what I took away from it was this.
It is similar to the age old debate of who was better Mosconi or Greenleaf.
And like the NFL likes to say "on any given Sunday"
Mosconi and Greenleaf are too close to call and so it is with these 2 horses.
And we did have the advantage that Mosconi and Greenleaf competed against each other and there still is no clear cut best.
I felt sorry for Sham too. He never raced again after that Belmont Stakes. I have no doubt he would have won the Triple Crown that year himself were it not for Secretariat.
Here's a somewhat rigorous comparison of the two that I came across while Googling both champions today. I have't read it all, but it looks really interesting.
http://www.truevine.net/members/sec@truevine.net/Legends/Paper.htm
Anyway, here's to great horses the world over. I used to work with TBs as a kid (West Creek Stables in upstate NY), and I love them to death. No other animal in the world has as much heart as a thoroughbred racehorse.
Very interesting read. Secretariat and Man o' War are without a doubt the two most legendary American thoroughbreds ever.
I do like his conclusion:
"In the end, we return to the question posed at the start, the question which initiated this project: which of the two was the finer specimen, the better athlete? Ceteris paribus, this analysis suggests Secretariat, but perhaps we cannot be sure."
Btw, I have Secretariat's programs and winning tickets from all three of his Triple Crown races.
if these two horses could have raced at the same time.
it would be neck and neck at the last turn and which one would have had the will and heart to win down the stretch? that's the mark of a true champion.
and if we throw Seattle Slew into that stretch run he might have beat them both.he was a bully.
Some recent events reminded me of this thread. It was one of my favorite threads I ever started.
This past weekend, Roger Federer just won the Australian Open. Man, watching his face...the look of total serenity in his eyes as he is doing the most incredibly athletic and artistic things on the court...I don't know, he might have just taken the #1 spot on my list. Man this guy is just such an incredible inspiration. I am just humbled by this guy. Its stuff like this that really makes me bow my head to God...just the sheer awesomeness that humanity can be.
Also, I will definitely replace Joe Montana with Tom Brady. Who could argue with that?
Anyway, anyone else have new thoughts?
KMRUNOUT
555 straight is pretty good.
Babe Ruth by far the best baseball player of all time
Ted Williams who was Mickey Mantle's idol and no average hitter himself
pronounced the Babe the best by far
Some argument could be made for him being the greatest pitcher of all time
some others have Ruthian years or dominate some minor sport
for a while
Gorgeous George was such a great showman that Ali patterned his
bad guy image that later became Earl's
Donald Trump deserves the greatest for putting Hilary out of our way forever
Bob Hope was the greatest entertainer
If Bank pool is the greatest game then Eddie Taylor deserves to be remembered as
the greatest banker of all time
but none compare to the Babe
Ted Williams who was Mickey Mantle's idol and no average hitter himself
pronounced the Babe the best by far
Some argument could be made for him being the greatest pitcher of all time
some others have Ruthian years or dominate some minor sport
for a while
Gorgeous George was such a great showman that Ali patterned his
bad guy image that later became Earl's
Donald Trump deserves the greatest for putting Hilary out of our way forever
Bob Hope was the greatest entertainer
If Bank pool is the greatest game then Eddie Taylor deserves to be remembered as
the greatest banker of all time
but none compare to the Babe
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