what makes the hit of these cues so highly regarded? i have never hit with one, but almost all of them have i've seen have stainless at the joint. do any of you guys think steel transmits feel or hit better than any other joint? i don't think it is possible. lots of people think schons are very good hitting cues, but they all have piloted stainless joints. stainless is crap imo.
the hit of a balabushka, scruggs, szamboti, etc.
- Thread starter blueballs
- Start date
I have played with a Balabushka, and honestly, I do not see anything special about it. 40 years ago it might have been drastically better than what else was available, but with the engineering that has gone into cue making, most high end production cues will play as well or better (in my opinion).
I took a few pokes with Tommy Kennedy's Bushka once. We switched cues in the middle of a game.
It was ok, nothing special. I prefer the hit of my Wayne Gunn sneaky pete over it. Tommy was impressed by it also.
It was ok, nothing special. I prefer the hit of my Wayne Gunn sneaky pete over it. Tommy was impressed by it also.ridingthenine21
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blueballs said:
20% of all cue makers do in fact use magic! (and also consume bread!)
Rboehme said:
I had a Balabushka 40 years ago, didn't really like it and sold it. I remember everyone in those days wanting a Joss (especially after Ronnie Allen got one), GINACUE and Tad, but I was in Cali and things were a lot more regional in those (pre-internet) days. Since pretty much all the legendary cuemakers handed down their knowhow and equipment to others, and with the improvement in technology and trading of "secrets" between current cuemakers, I've got to think that today's cues are better than ever.
interesting post ......i would really like to try hitting a few balls with an old Balabushka...i know the wood to wood is a good hit..but i would like to see what a cue made out of old growth lumber would hit like....someday Maybe i will own one of the so called cheaper Bushka's
ive played with all different kinds of cues with different joints. it wasnt till Barry Szamboti built me a cue did i realy understand what the word hit meant. believe me its the cue maker
blueballs said:
I disagree. That's why I wrote what I did. Most people are clueless as to why SS joints sound and feel like they do, and why other joints feel the way they do. Ray Schuler knew why. Mike Lambros knows why. Tim Scruggs happily discovered why. I thought you'd like to know why Scruggs' SS joints don't sound like others. My mistake, apparently.
Fred <~~~ it ain't magic
Cornerman said:
hey fred id like to know why, tell me if you aint gonna tell him lol
also while youre on it......whats special about the schuler joint...ive seen one and it just looks like a severely piloted joint, but i didnt see the shaft, just the butt so i dont know what the rest of it looks like. Ive been watching an old schuler on ebay and was thinkin about bidding. Also fred what do you think of the layani joint......im always interested in learning pool stuff, so far i prefer the ss piloted joint ( i use a schon) to most others, but hey im always looking for that perfect hit.
The common misconception is that steel joints hit hard, ivory joints hit softly. Tim had done a repair on one of his ivory jointed collars that cracked. For S&G's, he simply replaced it with an SS joint, polished it up and discovered that the SS joint made absolutely no difference in the hit. He always assumed it was the ivory, but you have to construct an ivory joint differently: with intimate wood-to-wood contact. That's it, in a nutshell. I believe Evan Clark also does something different to his SS joints, rather than the standard piloted method.scottycoyote said:
Ray used as little weight as he could in the joint, while keeping the strength up. And, like Tim, he realized that increasing the intimate contact was the key to keeping the hit sounding muted. His pin is made of hollow brass. The pilot insert into the shaft is made of aircraft-grade aluminum. The pilot is actually an interference fit (radial compression) into the hole of the butt joint. To keep the hoop stress integrity, they use a brass collar, and then an aesthetic wood collar over it. The brass takes up all the hoop stress. If they use a metal collar, it's thin and they keep as much wood-to-wood intimate contact as possible.
It's an excellent idea. I have one. The taper fit provides even more intimate contact than probably any other joint. The downside is that the joint looks so uncommon that its acceptance isn't as high as it could be.
Fred
cool fred, thanks for the info
i like the "interference fit" thats what my schons are like. Im in the process of having an ob-1 shaft made, and i told royce i wanted it to fit like my schon shafts, and thats what he called it.....the interference fit. He said he didnt think it mattered as to playability, but i sure like how my stick hits, maybe its just mental but i like it.
i like the "interference fit" thats what my schons are like. Im in the process of having an ob-1 shaft made, and i told royce i wanted it to fit like my schon shafts, and thats what he called it.....the interference fit. He said he didnt think it mattered as to playability, but i sure like how my stick hits, maybe its just mental but i like it.
Cornerman said:
Fred,
While Thiery may be they only one doing it to cue joints, injection molds have used "tapered interlocks" for at least 30 years. I have a DME (Detroit Mold Engineering) catalog from 1975 that offers them in a few different sizes. I think that cue makers and cue making has lagged behind the latest developements in manufacturing. And then when they do utilize some of them ie. CNC they get slammed for cutting corners, no pun intended to the "pointy point" crowd. Adhesives and finishes are other examples of technology being much better today than during the heyday of the master cuemakers.
best regards.........Paul
I too have played with a Balabushka...
All -
I too have played with a Bala and I have played with a Gus. The Gus played better, in fact, Gus played great.
I found the Bala a little big in the butt, but as stated above it probably was much better than anything else around at the time.
One of my favorite stories, the top player around here for a long time goes and plays in New Jersey or New York. He goes with one the Vikings' "new" superjoint (again this in early 1970s). He said he had about 5 offers to trade a bala for his superjoint Viking. He laughs and said, "Hell no, what do you think I am stupid?"
If he could only go back in time..................
Ken
Rboehme said:
All -
I too have played with a Bala and I have played with a Gus. The Gus played better, in fact, Gus played great.
I found the Bala a little big in the butt, but as stated above it probably was much better than anything else around at the time.
One of my favorite stories, the top player around here for a long time goes and plays in New Jersey or New York. He goes with one the Vikings' "new" superjoint (again this in early 1970s). He said he had about 5 offers to trade a bala for his superjoint Viking. He laughs and said, "Hell no, what do you think I am stupid?"
If he could only go back in time..................
Ken
What makes a simple cue worth eight or ten thousand dollars? Certainly not the "hit"!
It wasn't the parts they used or the hit that made these cue makers great. It was the work they did and what they did for their players. It was who wanted them - the elite pros.
A well built cue is solid regardless of joint parts. It is well balanced and consistent. The dimensions are important and so is the wood selection. Most importantly, it satisfies the player to the point where they won't change cues.
What made these cue makers great is their attention to detail. They listened to their players and were patient in building cues that were right for them. They became experts at figuring out what the player wanted. If they had to install a dozen tips to please a fussy pro player, they did. They provided good service.
Szamboti and Balabushka were perfectionists who took great pride in their work and they were adored by their players.
Chris
It wasn't the parts they used or the hit that made these cue makers great. It was the work they did and what they did for their players. It was who wanted them - the elite pros.
A well built cue is solid regardless of joint parts. It is well balanced and consistent. The dimensions are important and so is the wood selection. Most importantly, it satisfies the player to the point where they won't change cues.
What made these cue makers great is their attention to detail. They listened to their players and were patient in building cues that were right for them. They became experts at figuring out what the player wanted. If they had to install a dozen tips to please a fussy pro player, they did. They provided good service.
Szamboti and Balabushka were perfectionists who took great pride in their work and they were adored by their players.
Chris
Never played with a Bushka but I currently play with an early 80s Gus. I prefer the way the steel jointed cues hit. To me, its a very solid hit--it feels like the cue goes right through the ball effortlessly in well made steel jointed cues.
My Gus has an exceptional hit, I would tell you that its the best I have ever had but the tendency is to discount people who say "Oh I have a great hitting cue" when its an older collectible cue that is worth some obscene amt of dough for a piece of wood. But really, it does hit unbelievably good and I have my own independent data to back it up.
My best friend is an on again/off again pool player. Actually plays pretty good sometimes and has been known to run 2-4 racks on occasion. A few years back I caught high end pool cue-itis. I had 15 high end cues and one weekend I let my best friend test drive them all, even though he is completely igorant of cues outside the realm of production cues. So I laid out these cues which included
-my current playing cue a Gus Szamboti
-two Benders
-hoppe conversion scruggs
-2 Southwests
-omega DPK
-2 Searings
-late 60's Joss
-2 Joss Wests
-Mottey
-Pete Ohman sneaky pete
-Coker
We played a whole weekend that my wife took the kids upstate to visit her Mom. At the end of the weekend I asked him which one he liked best.
He was apologetic, "Yknow, I hate to tell you this, but I really like this plain jane cue the best (the four point no ivory, no inlaid G. Szamboti)." He was worried I would be all upset that he didnt like my fancy looking cues the best. I just laughed. So when people ask me how my cue hits, sometimes I tell them about how my cue passed my own version of the Taster's Choice Blind test.
My Gus has an exceptional hit, I would tell you that its the best I have ever had but the tendency is to discount people who say "Oh I have a great hitting cue" when its an older collectible cue that is worth some obscene amt of dough for a piece of wood. But really, it does hit unbelievably good and I have my own independent data to back it up.
My best friend is an on again/off again pool player. Actually plays pretty good sometimes and has been known to run 2-4 racks on occasion. A few years back I caught high end pool cue-itis. I had 15 high end cues and one weekend I let my best friend test drive them all, even though he is completely igorant of cues outside the realm of production cues. So I laid out these cues which included
-my current playing cue a Gus Szamboti
-two Benders
-hoppe conversion scruggs
-2 Southwests
-omega DPK
-2 Searings
-late 60's Joss
-2 Joss Wests
-Mottey
-Pete Ohman sneaky pete
-Coker
We played a whole weekend that my wife took the kids upstate to visit her Mom. At the end of the weekend I asked him which one he liked best.
He was apologetic, "Yknow, I hate to tell you this, but I really like this plain jane cue the best (the four point no ivory, no inlaid G. Szamboti)." He was worried I would be all upset that he didnt like my fancy looking cues the best. I just laughed. So when people ask me how my cue hits, sometimes I tell them about how my cue passed my own version of the Taster's Choice Blind test.
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are you saying that custom makers today don't do any of those things you listed. none of them care if the customer is happy?
i just don't believe that steel can give feedback to the shooting hand the way other materials do, i know many of you guys can tell the differences. i am not saying that any of these guys make bad cues, or a stainless joint cannot perform.
by the way Tate, what is under the bumper of a palmer, scruggs and a balabushka. i know gus szamboti built his blanks by carefully selecting his wood for natural balance, but i dont know about the other guys. there are very few guys that do this instead of using weight bolts, these days. if any of you know who build cues this way please list them.
i just don't believe that steel can give feedback to the shooting hand the way other materials do, i know many of you guys can tell the differences. i am not saying that any of these guys make bad cues, or a stainless joint cannot perform.
by the way Tate, what is under the bumper of a palmer, scruggs and a balabushka. i know gus szamboti built his blanks by carefully selecting his wood for natural balance, but i dont know about the other guys. there are very few guys that do this instead of using weight bolts, these days. if any of you know who build cues this way please list them.
Crap??
Well Blueballs,You obviously already know the answer to your question since SS jointed cues are crap but hey what do Tim Scruggs,Gus and Barry Szamboti,George Balabushka,Mike Johnson,Tad Kohara,Ernie Guttierez,Dennis Searing,Pete Tascarella,Danny Tibbetts,and too many other masters to mention know?Heaven forbid,I even think some of those guys use weight bolts.Gee,I wish I could afford more crappy cues.Mike S.
Well Blueballs,You obviously already know the answer to your question since SS jointed cues are crap but hey what do Tim Scruggs,Gus and Barry Szamboti,George Balabushka,Mike Johnson,Tad Kohara,Ernie Guttierez,Dennis Searing,Pete Tascarella,Danny Tibbetts,and too many other masters to mention know?Heaven forbid,I even think some of those guys use weight bolts.Gee,I wish I could afford more crappy cues.Mike S.