The "Kees-ash" or the experience?

J

jrmuckadoo

Registered
Player "X" enters ($100 "invested") and wins an IPT mini qualifier that allows him free entry in to an IPT qualifier tournament for the Reno tournament. Player "X" goes on to take a gut-wrenchingly dissapointing (from what I overheard) 3rd place-just one place short of that coveted "golden ticket" to the IPT Reno tourney.

Player "X's" good freind was the "lucky" winner of the entry to the Reno event. He ended up shelling out a couple grand in expenses and lost probably another couple grand in lost revenue from missing work.
Part of Player "X" thinks he'd trade the $4,000 for the experience, but part of him is sort of relieved (in hindsight) that he's not stuck the $4,000.
Player "X" was about ready to jump off a bridge when Player "X" lost that semi final match.
Now Player "X" is wondering if he was the lucky one???
Son of Sr. Muckadoo
 
:(
jrmuckadoo said:
Now Player "X" is wondering if he was the lucky one???
Son of Sr. Muckadoo
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Sadly there are very few lucky ones. The lucky ones are the 43 that were invited to play at the KOTH event in Orlando and the ones that were able to go to Vegas and at least break even after travel and/or qualifier expenses. When it comes down to it, the only really lucky ones are the ones that placed high enough in the first two events to still be ahead after their expenses to Reno.

Very, very few are "lucky" and in the end, no one is because pool will not advance in any way shape or form from this mess.
 
If pool truly does not "advance" from this experience then it will be truly tragic. The advancement should come in the form of unification for the players who call themselves professionals. The word shoud go out to every corner of the globe that the players are organizing WORLDWIDE to exercise their collective bargaining power. Will promoters stop promoting pool? No. Only the unscrupulous ones will get out because they won't be able to ply and placate the players with low payouts, crappy tournaments, false promises, and unsecured prize funds.

Players around the world have shown that they have the dedication and wherewithal to go for the golden ring. So now that it turns to brass they need to band together to build a foundation. There is virtually no limit to what 2-500 of the world's very best players can accomplish as a group IF they choose to act as a cohesive group. Golf players did it and look where they are.

The IPT experience can be turned into a positive if it leads to a solid foundation being laid which no promoter of any size can tear up.

Let's not make this an "end of the world" scene. In the end it is something that has affected very few people when expressed as a percentage of the "pool world". The final tally will probably still show that the net gain monetarily outweighed the expediture for IPT players as a group. Once again, individually there will certainly be losses that sting but this is also the price of doing business in an unsecured enviroment. Hopefully there will be some form of redress available to those who acted on Trudeau's promises and suffered losses. But if not, then other than than those who are owed their prize money, the losses are certainly not earth shattering or devastating. Taken to the extreme of spending 10-20,000 on chassing the IPT dream these are still not amounts that should be causing great hardships to the point that we need to alert the Red Cross.

It is not insensitive to state for the record that anyone who pursued their dream of being a professional pool player to the exclusivity of everything else did so of their own free will. Whether the IPT turns out to have committed fraud or not it is still fact that the seed money was a gift to the players and it is still more than the players combined have paid into the IPT. Yes, the IPT is utterly despicable in the way it has handled it's business from it's inception. Yes, it is clear that Trudeau either does not have the capital he claims or is unwilling to use it for the further funding. It is equally clear that the players as a group DID NOT demand verification of the funding, that they accepted Trudeau's word. On that basis they were willing participants by allowing their hope to delude them and by acting on faith. Yes, they are victims to a degree. There is however a certain amount of culpability where the victim is also assigned partial fault if they did not practice due diligence. To our knowledge, no one verified Trudeau's claims and so due diligence was not followed.

So, for good to come out of this two things need to happen. One, Trudeau, Andrews, and anyone else involved need to be held accountable for the debt the IPT has incurred in regards to unpaid prizes and promises regarding the worth of a tour card regarding qualifiers, and prosecuted for any crimes, if any, that may have been committed. Two, the players need to organize and start being dues paying members of an organization that they contribute indivual efforts to in order to insure against anything of this sort ever happening again.
 
No, the player who won the qualifier and played in the event is the lucky one. His skill carried him as far as it could in competition against the world's elite. Money comes and goes but the experience will last a lifetime.

Let's use a hypothetical to illustrate. Let's assume that player Y who won the qualifier got paid in cash. Then he loses all the money, not gambling, just loses it, robbery, misplaced, whatever. So now he is in Reno just after finishing playing the greatest tournament he has ever participated in, after getting in by beating some of the toughest competition around and he is stuck $4000 with no cash to show for it. Does that erase the experience he had before losing the money? Of course not. The money had to be earned before it could be lost.

Player X can spout off all he wants to about how he is "lucky" to not be "stuck" 4 dimes but I would bet ten large that deep down he'd trade places with Player Y in a heartbeat just to have been able to have that experience.

Before this whole thing started there were several players who commented on this forum that they felt as though they would be eliminated from the tour but were not about to give up their spots among the chosen ones simply because of the experience. They went into it knowing full well that they would incur expenditures that might exceed their prize monies, even with the "guaranteed" amount. If these folks cherished the experience that much then I can only specualate that a qualifcant who actually earned a spot would cherish it that much more. Of course I agree that the disappointement of not getting paid after "earning" your spot and paying for it through the qualifier system is much greater than if you were simply chosen.
 
Wonderfull observation

Roadie,
You are one of the less pro-active or sarcastic on this Forum. I sense that there is no purpose to continue posting for those that have an agenda have set into motion something that cannot be stopped and will be left up to the lawyers and the courts.
 
LAMas said:
Roadie,
You are one of the less pro-active or sarcastic on this Forum. I sense that there is no purpose to continue posting for those that have an agenda have set into motion something that cannot be stopped and will be left up to the lawyers and the courts.
Click to expand...
Do you have a better solution? To date, the players owed the money have just sat here not saying anything (publicly) out of fear of rocking the boat. Meanwhile KT has made announcements about announcements using a lot of words to say nothing.

What else are people to do?
 
LAMas said:
Roadie,
You are one of the less pro-active or sarcastic on this Forum. I sense that there is no purpose to continue posting for those that have an agenda have set into motion something that cannot be stopped and will be left up to the lawyers and the courts.
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think you have any chance of being paid?

Do you think a man as wealthy and wise as Dr Ho ever seriously entertained the idea of buying into the IPT? What truth would this man cling to to make him do such a thing?

Just think about it: less than one year ago KT could not talk enough and he wanted the world to listen to him. He was famous and rich. He wanted everyone to know it.

Now, he hides and sends messengers to cover up all his lies. If he had nothing to hide, he would still enjoy talking to anyone who will listen.

Who with the power and wealth to help the IPT would listen to KT now?
 
Timberly, it all starts and ends with the players. We, as fans, can express our anger and sympathy all we want to but we are not the one affected. We actually received the better end of the deal by having been able to sweat three world class events which are now part of history.

If they players do not want to react either as a group or individually then we just have to accept that this is their desire.

If reports are true however there will be reactions with a wide range to them.

It is just not as drastic, at least as far as I see it, as to consider the demise of the IPT as the personal demise of any particular player, or that the hopes for professional pool to become mainstream popular is dead because of the IPT, or that everyone was hurt and unlucky who associated with the IPT.

You are personally connected to IPT players, I am personally connected. Many of us are. We all feel the pain. Hopefully out of the ashes will rise a phoenix of unity.
 
Roadie said:
Timberly, it all starts and ends with the players. We, as fans, can express our anger and sympathy all we want to but we are not the one affected. We actually received the better end of the deal by having been able to sweat three world class events which are now part of history.

If they players do not want to react either as a group or individually then we just have to accept that this is their desire.

If reports are true however there will be reactions with a wide range to them.

It is just not as drastic, at least as far as I see it, as to consider the demise of the IPT as the personal demise of any particular player, or that the hopes for professional pool to become mainstream popular is dead because of the IPT, or that everyone was hurt and unlucky who associated with the IPT.

You are personally connected to IPT players, I am personally connected. Many of us are. We all feel the pain. Hopefully out of the ashes will rise a phoenix of unity.
Click to expand...



Right on!


I think many here view the player's silence to date in regard to the payment issue as naivety but in reality, I saw it as pragmatism. The players have not given up any legal rights since Reno and until it is absolutely clear that the IPT has no intention of paying the players, it is best that they stay as cool as their patience and legal rights will allow. It sounds like torture, but I'm speaking from experience.

It all boils down to the checks from Reno right now. If the players get paid as promised within the next week, then at least there's a chance that some sense of balance will be restored. Deno will still have his stupid personal issues no matter what happens now. If another week goes by without any checks, regardless of the reason, then sadly, I think all bets are off on the future of the IPT.
 
Da Poet said:
Right on!


I think many here view the player's silence to date in regard to the payment issue as naivety but in reality, I saw it as pragmatism. The players have not given up any legal rights since Reno and until it is absolutely clear that the IPT has no intention of paying the players, it is best that they stay as cool as their patience and legal rights will allow. It sounds like torture, but I'm speaking from experience.

It all boils down to the checks from Reno right now. If the players get paid as promised within the next week, then at least there's a chance that some sense of balance will be restored. Deno will still have his stupid personal issues no matter what happens now. If another week goes by without any checks, regardless of the reason, then sadly, I think all bets are off on the future of the IPT.
Click to expand...

AGREED....here's the hook:

What if K*&T comes with 15 to 30% of what he owes the players within the week and says the balance will be paid within 1 to 6 mos with a possibility that some of that may be in stock and/or stock options....

Food for thought
 
ribdoner said:
AGREED....here's the hook:

What if K*&T comes with 15 to 30% of what he owes the players within the week and says the balance will be paid within 1 to 6 mos with a possibility that some of that may be in stock and/or stock options....

Food for thought
Click to expand...


It's certainly a possibility, but I can't imagine it would satisfy everyone, let alone a significant majority of the players.

No, one week all or nothing looks like the situation as best as I would venture to guess. Nothing but full payment could possibly stop the bleeding.

You know, if KT would have offered to pay interest, even at a token rate, I don't think any of this crap would have happened today. Big mistake.
 
Roadie said:
Timberly, it all starts and ends with the players. We, as fans, can express our anger and sympathy all we want to but we are not the one affected. We actually received the better end of the deal by having been able to sweat three world class events which are now part of history.

If they players do not want to react either as a group or individually then we just have to accept that this is their desire.

If reports are true however there will be reactions with a wide range to them.

It is just not as drastic, at least as far as I see it, as to consider the demise of the IPT as the personal demise of any particular player, or that the hopes for professional pool to become mainstream popular is dead because of the IPT, or that everyone was hurt and unlucky who associated with the IPT.

You are personally connected to IPT players, I am personally connected. Many of us are. We all feel the pain. Hopefully out of the ashes will rise a phoenix of unity.
Click to expand...


I wonder how many players would do it all over again if the opportunity comes up again?

Keep in mind that Charlie Williams followed the dream of the IPT and I would think that he is surrounded with intelligent people in the pool world who could have advised him.

Also Alan Hopkins. He has been around the block a few times and knows what is what.

It would be interesting if one of the magazines would interview Charlie and/or Alan to get their thoughts about why they jumped at the chance to join the IPT. What inside information did they have?

I'm sure they were both told of KT's past history. His infomercials. His con games. So did they weigh the odds and figure that they would get in early and if things didn't pan out they could jump ship? They would get a chance to make some easy fast money with not a high risk of losing money plus they would get a lot of free publicity. Sorta like saying, "screw the rest of the players I will get mine."

More likely than not there were a whole mess of con games going on with players calculating what was best for them. Personal greed. That is what makes every con game succeed. How many times have I heard a hustler state that it was the sucker's pesonal greed that cost him to lose so much money.

Oh well I sure did enjoy the IPT while it lasted. It was a great show for me.

For once the fans, all 13 of us, came out the winners.

Jake
 
Why they "jumped" at the IPT is easy - free money, well, almost free. Allen told me that he felt pumped up by the IPT and rejuvenated. He had some misgivings but simply said that it was worth a shot.

I would like to believe that the players would ask for a verified guarantee in unity on the second trip around.
 
Guys,
Let me make a couple of comments regarding WHY players were so ready to give the IPT a go:

I think the original events (Sigel v Jones and the KOTH) assured us that there was significant funding for this project's aims to continue for at least some degree of time.

Who wouldn't want to play in a $2MM or $3MM event having seen monies being paid previously? And to be a part of pool history and the greatest billiard events ever staged?

That it was near impossible to assertain any way in which cancellation of the tour at an early stage could have resulted in a profit for the IPT.

Yes, it was always possible that funds may run out and that some promise of payment would be stalled or breached, but until about 50 days ago there was little but remote speculation about this. Not enough clues to prevent most players from taking an apparently reasonable risk.

KT, it appeared, was a man who's made money on projects that others would have considered poor business opportunities. The Natural Cures book being one example. A man familiar with media and sales beyond that of past promoters. So to think he could do something others could not, was not entirely ridiculous.

To look at negative reporting of his business activities raised concern for most, but it certainly appeared that KT would not profit on this enterprise, unless the tour was successful. And as he had been successful in previous ventures, it was reasonably fair to conclude that he could possibly succeed in making this model into a profitable business, and that the dreams talked of, though probably exagerated, may at least indicate a possible future tour of the sport, and business model within the sport, that was unprecedented and that could last.

Now the IPT has hit a speedbump of a size which varies according to speculators. Hindsight is always more clear than foresight and we're yet to know all the facts of the past, nor the outcome of the future.

Call all the participants greedy if you like, but I believe they were and are typical folks, with little but the above points to go on. If they had thought or believed that support of the tour would lead to wroughting of qualifiers, organizers etc, then I believe many would have stood down.

Right now, we wait impatiently, for clarification, and hoping KT will do the right thing as best he can, as far as it concerns all who have invested time, energy, talent and money into this venture. But the string of faith, becomes increasingly frayed.

Colin
 
Da Poet said:
Right on!


I think many here view the player's silence to date in regard to the payment issue as naivety but in reality, I saw it as pragmatism. The players have not given up any legal rights since Reno and until it is absolutely clear that the IPT has no intention of paying the players, it is best that they stay as cool as their patience and legal rights will allow. It sounds like torture, but I'm speaking from experience.

It all boils down to the checks from Reno right now. If the players get paid as promised within the next week, then at least there's a chance that some sense of balance will be restored. Deno will still have his stupid personal issues no matter what happens now. If another week goes by without any checks, regardless of the reason, then sadly, I think all bets are off on the future of the IPT.
Click to expand...


Give then another week? You're kidding right? Or are you really Trudo?
The "another week" scenario ended sometime back in October, when everyone began to realize they were getting stiffed. NOTHING is going to change this week except the calendar.

I wonder what it will take for an apologist like you to realize the jig is up. Barring a miraculous infusion of cash, the IPT is dead and stinking.
 
jay helfert said:
Give then another week? You're kidding right? Or are you really Trudo?
The "another week" scenario ended sometime back in October, when everyone began to realize they were getting stiffed. NOTHING is going to change this week except the calendar.

I wonder what it will take for an apologist like you to realize the jig is up. Barring a miraculous infusion of cash, the IPT is dead and stinking.
Click to expand...

Dude, I was not even implying that another week was "okay". I was merely making a prediction on when I thought the situation would be past the point of no return.

An apologist like me? Please. :rolleyes:
 
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