Don't forget 8-ball. Efren is the best 8-ball player ever in my opinion.
The Mount Rushmore of Pool - who would you put on?
- Thread starter Cardigan Kid
- Start date
Don't forget 8-ball. Efren is the best 8-ball player ever in my opinion.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
.number13cfan
Banned
IMHO, Harold Worst was the MOST feared player of all time. Extremely intimidating, from his stature to his powerful stroke! He didn't just beat players, He humiliated them, firing game ball in the pocket a100 MPH!
He moved the cue ball around the table effortlessly, on the old slow directional cloth. And had a break in 9 ball, like a sledge hammer!
But, BEST and most of all, HE BET his OWN CASH!
Number13cfan
He moved the cue ball around the table effortlessly, on the old slow directional cloth. And had a break in 9 ball, like a sledge hammer!
But, BEST and most of all, HE BET his OWN CASH!
Number13cfan
Old Nine Baller
Banned
sjm,
I don't think we agree at all. I place a much greater value on championships won on a 5'x10' rather than a 4 1/2'x9'.
The advent of the smaller tables allowed many more "shotmakers" to win at 14.1 then they had in the past on the larger tables.
ONB
We're on the same page in the sense that we prioritize the fact that he dominated his peers over what he accomplished in exhibition matches.
FYI, Mosconi was, in the eyes of most, the greatest position player of the golden age of straight pool, not a guy known as a "shotmaker." Caras and Lassiter were considered better "shotmakers" than Willie and they were the ones known for trying and making super-tough shots back then.
And yet, it was so "easy", nobody could duplicate the feat... too funny.
No, it was difficult, very difficult, but a man should be judged on his entire body of work, not on what he did on a single special occasion, especially when his special accomplishment did not occur in pro level playing conditions.
I am not that bored. Quite the opposite. I just don't have a chance to get on the forums that often so when I do get a chance I do a fair amount of reading.
I can do just fine with those cues. We treat each other very well. They have paid for themselves many times over.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The problem with Harold Worst is that he died to soon to really know how good he would have been over the long haul. Many elite players go through spurts of absolute greatness over a period where they are the clear best player on the planet.
At the end of 2009 Mika Immonen was ridiculous. He was the two time defending US Open champ, World 10-ball champ, Qatar International champ, Challenge of Champions champ, and World 10-ball classic champ. He won over $240,000 that year and he was without a doubt the best player on the planet at the end of that year as far as tournament pool goes.
Now, lets assume that at the end of 2009 Mika had jumped onto the wrong airplane and died in a wreck. How good would people have remembered him being having been taken out right at that peak? What types of accomplishments would people have assumed he would have gone on to have if not for his untimely death? Most would have assumed he would have gone on to do more awesome things and been one of the most dominant players on the planet for many years winning more Worlds and US Opens and other major international events.
But he did not go out at the top, he lived on, kept playing and he still plays great, but he came back down to earth.
Worst went out at the top. He dominated the game for a short time and looked unstoppable; and at that time he "was" the best in the world, but it was a short time. Would he have went on to dominate the sport for decades winning tons of events? Maybe, or maybe he would have fallen off like countless other players after they hit that elite peak and rule the world for a short time.
For a while Darren Appleton had his huge run winning worlds and US Opens and was the man to beat.
A 16 year old kid named Wu shocked the world and won two world championships and was usually the odds on favorite to win any event he entered.
For a while Dennis Orcullo looked like the money king of the world and beat all comers.
Then a guy from Taiwan named Yang went into long money sets against Orcullo and soundly beat him and proved to be even more dangerous.
The thing about all of them? They eventually came back down to earth. Still awesome players, but that extremely elite peak of play they showed simply could not be sustained.
With Worst we never got to see if he would have sustained that level of excellence over the long run. We might have caught him on one of those phenomenal runs that elite players sometimes have, and then he regretfully died right after that and we never got to know if he was the next Mosconi, or if he was simply another Mika or Appleton or Wu.
All brilliant players, but as good as the guys who have those flashes of brilliance for a few years straight, Mosconi's flash of brilliance lasted decades, it was "not" a hot streak, he was that good for his whole playing career until he had a stroke.
Was Worst a Mosconi level player with the ability to dominate to that level for that long of a period? We will sadly never know. But I will tell you one thing for certain, no one "since" Mosconi has managed to dominate like he did for as long as he did. No one.
I agree Steve Mizerak should be in the conversation.
Steve was the only person to win 4 consecutive US Open 14.1 titles, beating Lassiter in the finals of two of them.
Also won a US Open 9 ball title, and several World titles. Not to mention going across the pond and becoming an accomplished snooker player.
All Around player is an understatement.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
Ever hear of Michael Eufemia? He ran 625 with many backing his claim but they didn't work for Brunswick.
You actually seem semi-intelligent when you post in the NPR forum, you seem not to know anything when you post about pool.
Mosconi continued his 526 run after running 200 against an opponent in an exhibition. It was on a 4x8 table. Why would anybody want to try to duplicate the feat? Nobody plays on 4x8's and nobody cares about 14.1.
There is not even agreement on how the 526 run ended. Some say he got tired and quit and some say he missed a break-ball.
You should stick to white people shooting unarmed black people.
ONB
number13cfan
Banned
In the early 70's I was on the road, around NYC, I hung around the Golden Cue in Queens. There was a side room there, were this fellow Mike would practice 14.1 for hours.
Every afternoon, he would draw a crowd. I decided to see what was up with this guy.
I went to the GC in Queens, every day for 2 weeks. While I was there, I personally saw Mike run at least 200 balls every single day!
The kicker to this story is, Mike couldn't run 3 racks for MONEY or in a TOURNAMENT!
He just froze up, really bad!
I've heard the story many, many times about his over 600 ball run, but when your a dead onion for the money or tournament, He might as well run10,000, it won't mean a thing in the record books!
Mosconi's run of 526 is impressive also, for the mere fact it was on a smaller table, (balls tie up easier and less room for the CB to get around problems). But, He was also the GREATEST 14.1 player of the 20th Century!
Number13cfan
Every afternoon, he would draw a crowd. I decided to see what was up with this guy.
I went to the GC in Queens, every day for 2 weeks. While I was there, I personally saw Mike run at least 200 balls every single day!
The kicker to this story is, Mike couldn't run 3 racks for MONEY or in a TOURNAMENT!
He just froze up, really bad!
I've heard the story many, many times about his over 600 ball run, but when your a dead onion for the money or tournament, He might as well run10,000, it won't mean a thing in the record books!
Mosconi's run of 526 is impressive also, for the mere fact it was on a smaller table, (balls tie up easier and less room for the CB to get around problems). But, He was also the GREATEST 14.1 player of the 20th Century!
Number13cfan
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I knew Mike, who was a good friend of my late father. As I understand it, the problem with the 1961 run was that while it was witnessed in "logical" terms, not a single person saw it from beginning to end other than Mike.
However, there were, to offer an illustrative (but fictional) example, those who could attest to the first 200, others who could attest to balls 150-350, others who could attest to balls 280-625, so the combined attestation of what happened would have seemed to constitute a witness, but the run was not recognized for lack of anyone who saw the whole run.
As you've said, though, Brunswick is believed to have used some of its muscle to ensure that Mosconi's 526 would remain the record. Willie was, after all, Brunswick's golden boy, and had he run the 625, it likely would have been recognized.
number13cfan
Banned
The foremost authority on Willie Mosconi is probably, my good friend, Charlie Ursitti!
Charlie and Willie were so close, He stayed at Willie's home every time He was in Philly. Charlie used call him, 'Uncle Willie', that's how close they were.
When I talk with Charlie tomorrow, I'll ask Him to relay the story to me again, about Willie running rack after rack in Las Vegas. Where Willie was practicing in the morning, Charlie was racking. When lunch time came around, Willie said, 'Lets go get a sandwich, leave the balls there.' When they came back, Willie kept shooting until dinner time! Same scenario, 'Lest go eat dinner, leave the balls!' Came back and proceeded to run more racks!
Charlie says Willie ran 42 racks and decided to call it a night!
Number13cfan
Charlie and Willie were so close, He stayed at Willie's home every time He was in Philly. Charlie used call him, 'Uncle Willie', that's how close they were.
When I talk with Charlie tomorrow, I'll ask Him to relay the story to me again, about Willie running rack after rack in Las Vegas. Where Willie was practicing in the morning, Charlie was racking. When lunch time came around, Willie said, 'Lets go get a sandwich, leave the balls there.' When they came back, Willie kept shooting until dinner time! Same scenario, 'Lest go eat dinner, leave the balls!' Came back and proceeded to run more racks!
Charlie says Willie ran 42 racks and decided to call it a night!
Number13cfan
I couldn't have written any better. He was great from the accounts in the books I read. Tragic that his career sample is not in the decades, so we will never know. This is why I left him off my mount Rushmore list.
It seems to me that we are allowing three-cushion skills to be included in the conversation. If so, it can easily be argued that Ray Ceulemans, who won 23 World Three Cushion Championships, had more years of sustained dominance than Mosconi. If this were the cuesports Mount Rushmore rather than the pool Mount Rushmore as indicated in the thread title, the omission of Ceulemans would be shocking.
If we're only talking pool, while Worst was playing his very best, Lassiter was the better of the two at both 14.1 and nine ball. Lassiter won three straight all-around titles at Johnston City in the early 1960's, even though he didn't play much one-pocket. That's why he's on the "dead players" Mount Rushmore of many, including myself and Bill Incardona.
Worst was an all-time great, but the case for his inclusion is far weaker than the cases for other deceased players Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, and others.
As others have said, we were denied the opportunity to find out whether Worst could dominate his sport. Sad indeed, but I'm glad to see his name being mentioned in this thread.
number13cfan
Banned
I thought this a 'Mount Rushmore' monument, NOT the 'United Nations' monument!
Just a suggestion, why don't we stick to 'AMERICAN' players for this monument!
My 4 picks are:
Hoppe
Greenleaf
Mosconi
Strickland
ALL these players are AMERICAN players and have set records, to my knowledge have NOT been equaled by ANY other American player!
Number13cfan
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BUMP :thumbup::thumbup:
Insightful and balanced post.Never easy to compare greats across different eras.
If Harold Worst had won Player of Year (if there was one in those days), I am wondering would the headline have read "Harold Worst Player of the Year"
True. If it were discussion of cuesports, then Walter Lindrum cannot be left our. They called Don Bradman the Lindrum of cricket. The great Joe Davis was not his match and it was claimed that Davis started the snooker championships cos he could not beat Lindrum and Lindrum did not like snooker :smile: