The open part of U.S. Open

[akaTrigger]

Melinda,
what are you doing up so early? much less posting on the forums

9balllvr

Early for me... but if you are posting now, does that mean you have been up all night?

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

But, A MAN Will Win It

I hadn't even thought of it either... LOL

Still, take advantage of it, Skess. Just goes to show - the US Open for Women isn't open to all women. Hmmm...

Even more a reason for guys to take advantage of the US Open.

Well, while we're at it, the U.S.Open 9 Ball Championship for wheelchair players is Open to both men AND women.... (and, I think it's THIS week )
Doug

 

[Steve Logan]

U.S.Open

This topic of allowing a female to participate in the Open has been brought up several times in the past. I can't speak for Barry but I know he has a lot of pride in the history of this venue. I think there is an issue with allowing a female to play but the opposite is not an option. Meaning, Efren, Cory, or Johnny are not allowed to show up and enter a women's tournament, are they?
I know I run the risk here because this issue will be very opinionated.

 

[John Barton]

The women have their own US OPEN that the men are not allowed to play in. It is just like in golf, why in the hell do the female players lobby to play in and sometimes get to (Wie/Sorenstam) when the men are not allowed to play on the LPGA? While I agree that Allison, Karen, and others can somewhat compete and cash every now and then in a mens event, why should they be allowed to play in it when the men can't play on the women's tour?

I will answer that.

Because women as a group are inferior to men as a group as pool players. In exactly the same way that B players as a group are inferior to AA players as a group.

The male professionals are the very best so they should welcome any and all competition.

Should I complain as an A player that I am barred from playing in C-player events simply because C-players are allowed into A player events. No, I think 99% of A-players love to draw a C-player in an event.

The "men aren't allowed in womens events" argument does not hold up either because a MALE wheelchair player is not barred from entering the US Open 9 Ball Championship and yet every able bodied participant there is NOT allowed to enter the US Wheelchair Open.

I think it is crap to not let women compete in all Open events, inlcluding the US Open and the UPA events - although apparenlty the UPA is selective when it comes to letting SOME women in - sexy ones - to their events.

I understand however that somewhere along the line the WPBA wanted to have the rights to the US Open name for the women and so Barry relinquished it on condition that the Women were not allowed to compete in the men's Open. If this is true then it is what it is and the women have to live with it.

I think Barry ought to make it truly OPEN though and allow any breathing human to participate.

 

[akaTrigger]

This topic of allowing a female to participate in the Open has been brought up several times in the past. I can't speak for Barry but I know he has a lot of pride in the history of this venue. I think there is an issue with allowing a female to play but the opposite is not an option. Meaning, Efren, Cory, or Johnny are not allowed to show up and enter a women's tournament, are they?
I know I run the risk here because this issue will be very opinionated.

I don't think women should be allowed in the US Open (Barry's).

In this thread, I don't see anyone saying otherwise.

Melinda

 

[corvette1340]

I will answer that.

Because women as a group are inferior to men as a group as pool players. In exactly the same way that B players as a group are inferior to AA players as a group.

The male professionals are the very best so they should welcome any and all competition.

Should I complain as an A player that I am barred from playing in C-player events simply because C-players are allowed into A player events. No, I think 99% of A-players love to draw a C-player in an event.

The "men aren't allowed in womens events" argument does not hold up either because a MALE wheelchair player is not barred from entering the US Open 9 Ball Championship and yet every able bodied participant there is NOT allowed to enter the US Wheelchair Open.

I think it is crap to not let women compete in all Open events, inlcluding the US Open and the UPA events - although apparenlty the UPA is selective when it comes to letting SOME women in - sexy ones - to their events.

I understand however that somewhere along the line the WPBA wanted to have the rights to the US Open name for the women and so Barry relinquished it on condition that the Women were not allowed to compete in the men's Open. If this is true then it is what it is and the women have to live with it.

I think Barry ought to make it truly OPEN though and allow any breathing human to participate.

I think it is a little bit different in pool because most of the events don't have a cut off number in the amount of people that can enter. In golf, however, I think it is a downright disgrace and shame that Michelle Wie can get a sponsors exemption to men's events (coming in dead last in most of them) while a member of the PGA has to sit that tournament out that week. We are not talking about the Tiger's, Phil's, and Furyk's of the world, but the Tag Ridings, Darron Stiles, etc... that went to Q-School and are trying to stay in the top 125 and keep their tour cards for the next year.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

The women have their own US OPEN that the men are not allowed to play in. It is just like in golf, why in the hell do the female players lobby to play in and sometimes get to (Wie/Sorenstam) when the men are not allowed to play on the LPGA? While I agree that Allison, Karen, and others can somewhat compete and cash every now and then in a mens event, why should they be allowed to play in it when the men can't play on the women's tour?

Well there is really no one stopping you from protesting why men are not allowed in WPBA tournaments. I have the feeling the court will agree with you, but everyone will laugh at you. In fact, there is already a similar ruling about this.

Technically speaking, there is no men's tournament (except for WPA sanctioned tournaments, it's a different story). It's always been who can duke it out with the "big" boys.

 

[9balllvr]

I think it is crap to not let women compete in all Open events, inlcluding the US Open and the UPA events - although apparenlty the UPA is selective when it comes to letting SOME women in - sexy ones - to their events.{/QUOTE]

the UPA does not allow women to compete in their events - where did that come from? another note, the US Open is sanctioned by the UPA for ranking points also - it is no different than the WPBA having an Open event that is not truly an Open (not allowing men or non-qualified women for that matter).

 

[John Barton]

I think it is a little bit different in pool because most of the events don't have a cut off number in the amount of people that can enter. In golf, however, I think it is a downright disgrace and shame that Michelle Wie can get a sponsors exemption to men's events (coming in dead last in most of them) while a member of the PGA has to sit that tournament out that week. We are not talking about the Tiger's, Phil's, and Furyk's of the world, but the Tag Ridings, Darron Stiles, etc... that went to Q-School and are trying to stay in the top 125 and keep their tour cards for the next year.

That makes sense. I don't think that women should get any special privilege. Except I guess ONLY as a sponsor's exemption. I suppose that is a perk of sponsoring an event. We all know the person that "does it because he can" in pool to the exclusion of otherwise more qualified players

For an OPEN event though they should be allowed to either put up their entry fee and play OR be made to go through the same qualifying rounds as any other player has to.

 

[Johnnyt]

The entry fee is $500 Johnny. There are no Senior discounts.

Danm inflation. And I still have ALL my hair. I went to a senior event down here in Florida about 5 years ago. When I saw that half the guys playing could still hold their own on the regular tour(what reg. tour?) I just sat and rail bet. Johnnyt

 

[PROG8R]

I think it is a little bit different in pool because most of the events don't have a cut off number in the amount of people that can enter. In golf, however, I think it is a downright disgrace and shame that Michelle Wie can get a sponsors exemption to men's events (coming in dead last in most of them) while a member of the PGA has to sit that tournament out that week. We are not talking about the Tiger's, Phil's, and Furyk's of the world, but the Tag Ridings, Darron Stiles, etc... that went to Q-School and are trying to stay in the top 125 and keep their tour cards for the next year.

Even though she is playing really crappy right now, and she hasnt made a cut on the tour yet, she still beat some of those you mentioned who also missed the cut. Justin rose went pro got 10 MIL from titeliest to do and promptly missed every cut the first year on your. But now he has adjusted quite fine.
Since you did bring up golf in the first place, a woman can play in the mens USOPEN. That being said she wont fall into the exemptions category (top 50 in the world, recent wins on tour, etc...) so; she would have to go through the local qualifiers just like the rest. Maybe there should be slots in the bracket for qualifiers (no not the local tourneys where you play for the $500 entry, but just an outright qualifier. That would be nice.
As far as the top of the world men playing in the womans open, WHY?
Can't imagine any of them wanting to. Can you imaging the ridicule he would receive if he did not snap it off? Too much embarrassment for them I think, on the other hand the women dont have to worry about that.

 

[John Barton]

I think it is crap to not let women compete in all Open events, inlcluding the US Open and the UPA events - although apparenlty the UPA is selective when it comes to letting SOME women in - sexy ones - to their events.{/QUOTE]

the UPA does not allow women to compete in their events - where did that come from? another note, the US Open is sanctioned by the UPA for ranking points also - it is no different than the WPBA having an Open event that is not truly an Open (not allowing men or non-qualified women for that matter).

I stand corrected - I thought that the World 14.1 Tournament was a UPA Sanctioned Event.

The WPBA US Open is in fact less open to women than the men's US Open is to men. That is sad. It should mirror Behrman's US Open and be truly open to any woman with an entry fee.

But it IS different in the way that women are not allowed to participate in the Behrman US Open. As I explained before the WPBA as a group is comprised of inferior players who should as a group have their own league. They should not allow members of the stronger group to play in their league. This way they can determine who is the best of their group.

But the men are aknowledged by all - including the women - as being the best group of pool players on Earth. As such they should welcome every poolplayer to attempt to join their ranks and compete.

In a tournament such as the US Open it ought to truly BE open to all pool players regardless of gender. The first 256 players who get their entry fee in are competing for the title.

On a TOUR such as the UPA, such as it is, the United Pool Players Association should welcome all pool players regardless of gender. Make them all qualify but allow them to play.

I once asked Frank Alvarez if a woman were to renounce the WPBA and give up her right to play in women only events would she then be allowed to play on the UPA. He said no. Well why not? Because "they" have their own tour he said. So much for inclusion.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

[Realizm]

I stand corrected - I thought that the World 14.1 Tournament was a UPA Sanctioned Event.

The WPBA US Open is in fact less open to women than the men's US Open is to men. That is sad. It should mirror Behrman's US Open and be truly open to any woman with an entry fee.

But it IS different in the way that women are not allowed to participate in the Behrman US Open. As I explained before the WPBA as a group is comprised of inferior players who should as a group have their own league. They should not allow members of the stronger group to play in their league. This way they can determine who is the best of their group.

But the men are aknowledged by all - including the women - as being the best group of pool players on Earth. As such they should welcome every poolplayer to attempt to join their ranks and compete.

In a tournament such as the US Open it ought to truly BE open to all pool players regardless of gender. The first 256 players who get their entry fee in are competing for the title.

On a TOUR such as the UPA, such as it is, the United Pool Players Association should welcome all pool players regardless of gender. Make them all qualify but allow them to play.

I once asked Frank Alvarez if a woman were to renounce the WPBA and give up her right to play in women only events would she then be allowed to play on the UPA. He said no. Well why not? Because "they" have their own tour he said. So much for inclusion.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

The real man doesn't want to get BEAT BY A WOMEN.As a man we all have been there. "Let them play yes ".Can thay play o yes and and dam good..

 

[9balllvr]

I stand corrected - I thought that the World 14.1 Tournament was a UPA Sanctioned Event.

The WPBA US Open is in fact less open to women than the men's US Open is to men. That is sad. It should mirror Behrman's US Open and be truly open to any woman with an entry fee.

But it IS different in the way that women are not allowed to participate in the Behrman US Open. As I explained before the WPBA as a group is comprised of inferior players who should as a group have their own league. They should not allow members of the stronger group to play in their league. This way they can determine who is the best of their group.

But the men are aknowledged by all - including the women - as being the best group of pool players on Earth. As such they should welcome every poolplayer to attempt to join their ranks and compete.

In a tournament such as the US Open it ought to truly BE open to all pool players regardless of gender. The first 256 players who get their entry fee in are competing for the title.

On a TOUR such as the UPA, such as it is, the United Pool Players Association should welcome all pool players regardless of gender. Make them all qualify but allow them to play.

I once asked Frank Alvarez if a woman were to renounce the WPBA and give up her right to play in women only events would she then be allowed to play on the UPA. He said no. Well why not? Because "they" have their own tour he said. So much for inclusion.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

the 14.1 event was to be sanctioned, but this did not come to fruition - i do not know details as to why. your comment above mentions that you think the UPA should allow all genders. the UPA is recognized as the tour for US professional male rankings and invites to specific events outside of the US. IT IS A MEN'S TOUR just as the WPBA IS A WOMEN'S TOUR....period. as far as the US Open, if it were not sanctioned by the men's pro tour, i would agree that it should be a true open. if play does not affect ranking points for professional men, why not? in this case, it would.

 

[Skess]

I have done it many times before, and I will continue to do it. Not the USOPEN yet, but someday and when I do I know I will be deadmoney, but what the hell? That is why I play the sport, I hope to draw out players like Cory, or Shane , or even the legends like Buddy, who would not want to play them. By the way, this is a pretty strong B player indeed:

-Able to run 1 to 3 racks.
-Average run is 5-7 balls.
-With ball in hand will get out form the 5, 2 out of 3 times.

Someone asked about the ranking list I had. I got it from this site, but I can't remember who created it.

OPEN-Players
-Average 8+ balls.
-String racks together more than once in a match.
-Is a threat to run out from every ball, from every position, every inning.
-Typical inning will end in excellent safety or win.

A-Player
-Will string 2 to 3 racks.
-Average ball run, 7-9.
-With ball in hand, will be out from the 3 ball, 2 out of 3 times.
-Typical inning will end with a well executed safety or a win.

B-Player
-Able to run 1 to 3 racks.
-Average run is 5-7 balls.
-With ball in hand will get out form the 5, 2 out of 3 times.
-Most of the time a "B" player will play a "safety" which maybe hit easily 2 out of 3 times.
-A typical inning will end with a missed shot, a fair safety, or a won game.

C-Player
-Will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one.
-Average run is 3 to 5 balls.
-With ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times.
-Mixed results when playing safe.
-Inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

D- Player
-Will not run a rack.
-Average run is about 3 balls.
-With ball in hand, will get out from the 7, one out of 3 times.
-Rarely plays a successful safe

 

[Dead Money]

I'd say as long as you aren't so bad that every other shot sends balls off the table and results in ugly rips in the cloth you should play if you want. Besides the dead money guys boost up the payouts for the top finishers.

 

[jay helfert]

From a promoters point of view, it would be a good move to let women play. That is one reason why it has been done in golf most recently, to pump up the ratings. And pool is the perfect sport for this. Men and women can compete on even terms with absolutely no handicap.

When a women plays a man in pool, the stands are full. Jeanette Lee against the top men has been a big draw every time. Same goes for Allison and Karen when they have duked it out with the guys. It would be good for pool and that is enough reason for me to support it.

If someone like Karen won the U.S. Open that would make national and international headlines! I can just see Karen battling Johnny on ESPN. The ratings would be sky high. If they ever did matches like this and showed them the same day on television the ratings for pool would go thru the roof. JMHO

I say LET'S DO IT!

 

[John Barton]

the 14.1 event was to be sanctioned, but this did not come to fruition - i do not know details as to why. your comment above mentions that you think the UPA should allow all genders. the UPA is recognized as the tour for US professional male rankings and invites to specific events outside of the US. IT IS A MEN'S TOUR just as the WPBA IS A WOMEN'S TOUR....period. as far as the US Open, if it were not sanctioned by the men's pro tour, i would agree that it should be a true open. if play does not affect ranking points for professional men, why not? in this case, it would.

How would allowing women on the UPA affect the rankings for the men. If Allison, Karen, and Kelly were ranked 1,2,3 on the UPA Tour with Charlie #4 and Jeanette #5 then Charlie would have the dual title of #1 Asian American AND #1 male player. So for other boys-only events like the World Championships the boys could be invited based on their rankings on the UPA just as they are right now.

The OPEN should be OPEN. Sanctioned or not. The logic that women are not allowed because the UPA uses the US Open to award ranking points does not apply. The MAJORITY of participants in the US Open are NOT UPA members nor are they required to become dues paying, touring and point getting members of the UPA in order to participate in the US Open.

Thus they happily send UPA members home without any thought as to how it affects UPA member's standings within the UPA. The REALITY of the situation should be that the US Open should carry far more points for any UPA member who does well simply because of the depth and strength of the field. But I wouldn't know how that is structured.

When the UPA started they proclaimed that the were there for ALL pool players. There was no mention of gender. Only years later did they begin to mention gender on their website.

They should be there for ALL pool players. Let the women have their league, let the amateurs have their leagues, but be inclusive and welcome any and all who WANT to be UPA professionals and play at the TOP level of American pool. That would be an organization that if not yet financially at least morally would be a strong one.

But that's just my opinion. Others feel differently. I guess that there are some players on the UPA who absolutely would be eclipsed by the top women and perhaps they enjoy their status as "top ranked professionals" where they don't have a woman's name above them. These guys couldn't make it on the women's tour or the Viking tour either. So I can definitely see some valid personal reasons for being afraid to allow women to join the UPA.

 

[9balllvr]

How would allowing women on the UPA affect the rankings for the men. If Allison, Karen, and Kelly were ranked 1,2,3 on the UPA Tour with Charlie #4 and Jeanette #5 then Charlie would have the dual title of #1 Asian American AND #1 male player. So for other boys-only events like the World Championships the boys could be invited based on their rankings on the UPA just as they are right now.

The OPEN should be OPEN. Sanctioned or not. The logic that women are not allowed because the UPA uses the US Open to award ranking points does not apply. The MAJORITY of participants in the US Open are NOT UPA members nor are they required to become dues paying, touring and point getting members of the UPA in order to participate in the US Open.

Thus they happily send UPA members home without any thought as to how it affects UPA member's standings within the UPA. The REALITY of the situation should be that the US Open should carry far more points for any UPA member who does well simply because of the depth and strength of the field. But I wouldn't know how that is structured.

When the UPA started they proclaimed that the were there for ALL pool players. There was no mention of gender. Only years later did they begin to mention gender on their website.

They should be there for ALL pool players. Let the women have their league, let the amateurs have their leagues, but be inclusive and welcome any and all who WANT to be UPA professionals and play at the TOP level of American pool. That would be an organization that if not yet financially at least morally would be a strong one.

But that's just my opinion. Others feel differently. I guess that there are some players on the UPA who absolutely would be eclipsed by the top women and perhaps they enjoy their status as "top ranked professionals" where they don't have a woman's name above them. These guys couldn't make it on the women's tour or the Viking tour either. So I can definitely see some valid personal reasons for being afraid to allow women to join the UPA.

weren't you the one that said women were inferior earlier? why are you now pushing the issue? just curious. as far as you stating the UPA should be for ALL poolplayers - why? i would love to here your thoughts as to why they should encompass everyone - is that not what the BCA and APA (as well as others) do - in short, there are numerous tours out there for all players. the FACT is that the UPA is a men's professional tour - women are not allowed to play - just as the WPBA is a women's tour and no men.

as far as the Open is concerned, i could care less if men and women play together - i simply offered my opinion as to why i thought they shouldn't - it is a UPA sanctioned event (then we go back to the UPA is a MEN's only tour) i offered up the possibilities of rankings being an issue - you apparently don't like that suggestion and disagree - that is ok, it is your opinion.

why not ask Barry Behrman why he doesn't allow women - he apparently has his reasons - at least that way there is no speculation.

 

[juegabillar]

Isn't it limited to 256 entrants? If so, I'd hate to see a legitimate player sit it out because I wanted to dog balls in front of the pro's.

There is a 5 to 6 month open window to get your entry fees paid. If the legitimate player does not submit his entry on time, unfortunately, he could be left out.