The problem is pocket size.

Celtic

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
People are asking

"gee, should it be alternate break?"

No, if so you will simply see alot of hill hill matches that are akin to flips of a coin and getting through a round will be no less random.

"Well, how about if you have to shoot what you make?"

The reason the table is open off the break is because in 8-ball you are not supposed to be penalized for a good break due to the randomness of the layout. We are trying to get the cream to rise to the top, the best players ending up at the end of the events, that is not going to happen when you add more luck to the mix which is what happens with "shoot what you make".

Do you want to know what will fix it all? Tighten the pockets to 4 inches. This would make it ALOT harder to pocket balls on the break. It would cause alot of people to play safe instead of taking on tough pots. The pockets in this tournament are not buckets, but they are not overly tight either. The players are still adjusting to this game, and when they have played it for a few years these tables and the pocket size are simply not going to be tight enough to stop the pure offense we are seeing.

The answer is simply tighen the pockets to 4 inches instead of the 4.5 they have now.

The PGA players are not playing off the white tees that the local duffers do. The pro pool players should be playing on conditions that truly tests their skills to a great degree.
 
Why stop there?

No reason to stop there. How about 2 3/8 pockets? Or snooker style cushions?

Or the IPT could quit cheating the pocket angles and go back to a 142 degree or even 143 degree pocket. While they have been making all the hype about tight pockets they have changed the pocket angles to a nominal 141 degrees. That sounds like a little thing but two to four degrees difference in included angle does have a lot to do with if balls go in or hang up when playing off of the corner facing. Too, shooting for 141 degrees means that some corners will be even less.

The entire IPT equipment was apparently chosen for hype and because Sigel felt that it would benefit him. It wasn't chosen to play tough or easy. In truth they don't want it to play too tough or the matches would be boring and their pro's would look like Saturday night bangers.

Hu


Celtic said:
People are asking

"gee, should it be alternate break?"

No, if so you will simply see alot of hill hill matches that are akin to flips of a coin and getting through a round will be no less random.

"Well, how about if you have to shoot what you make?"

The reason the table is open off the break is because in 8-ball you are not supposed to be penalized for a good break due to the randomness of the layout. We are trying to get the cream to rise to the top, the best players ending up at the end of the events, that is not going to happen when you add more luck to the mix which is what happens with "shoot what you make".

Do you want to know what will fix it all? Tighten the pockets to 4 inches. This would make it ALOT harder to pocket balls on the break. It would cause alot of people to play safe instead of taking on tough pots. The pockets in this tournament are not buckets, but they are not overly tight either. The players are still adjusting to this game, and when they have played it for a few years these tables and the pocket size are simply not going to be tight enough to stop the pure offense we are seeing.

The answer is simply tighen the pockets to 4 inches instead of the 4.5 they have now.

The PGA players are not playing off the white tees that the local duffers do. The pro pool players should be playing on conditions that truly tests their skills to a great degree.
Click to expand...
 
What's the problem?

Efren and Rodney are in the finals. It looks like the cream is rising to the top. Isn't that what everyone wants to see? I think the way they are running the tournaments is working pretty well.

--Chili
 
I think the questions that should be asked is this:

Was there anyone in the final 6 that should not have been there?

Does the final 2 sound like a battle for the championship in any high level event?

IMO, the answers are obvious. I think if they tightened up the equipment that you would still see the best players advancing through the rounds. Morris VS Reyes is not a fluke final or the result of guys playing all week on loose equipment. Both played strong all week long. They earned their spots and probably would have done so on the tougher equipment. I'm just disappointed that Bustamante and Boyes couldn't maintain their momentum, I was really pulling for both of them. If Karl Boyes keeps doing what he's doing, it won't be very long before we see him in an IPT final.
 
Blackjack said:
I think the questions that should be asked is this:

Was there anyone in the final 6 that should not have been there?

Does the final 2 sound like a battle for the championship in any high level event?

IMO, the answers are obvious. I think if they tightened up the equipment that you would still see the best players advancing through the rounds. Morris VS Reyes is not a fluke final or the result of guys playing all week on loose equipment. Both played strong all week long. They earned their spots and probably would have done so on the tougher equipment. I'm just disappointed that Bustamante and Boyes couldn't maintain their momentum, I was really pulling for both of them. If Karl Boyes keeps doing what he's doing, it won't be very long before we see him in an IPT final.
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Very good points Blackjack.
The cream did rise to the top and I find the product good.
RJ
 
recoveryjones said:
Very good points Blackjack.
The cream did rise to the top and I find the product good.
RJ
Click to expand...

I think the product is good too. Who can complain about Rodney and Efren in the finals? Both have been around and proven to be champion players.
After being to several qualifiers and hearing so many complain, I've voiced several times that it should be alternating break. After thinking this over for some time, I have changed my view. After all, we are observing the finest in the world and the competition is only going to get tougher and tougher. They after all, are there because they run out and play better than 90% of the world.
I agree too, in this event, the cream has risen to the top. We all have favorites and those we root for, but, there can only be two.
The most amazing stat about the whole thing to me, is the fact that Efren is there at age 52-53, whatever his age is. After the week theses guys have endured, I feel it is just incredible.
 
As a pool enthusiest, I would like to see flawless play where each player only runs 2 or 3 racks tops. I like strategy and lock up safes. I am not the target audience so that may be bad for the tour :)

The first 8 pack is going to be nice. After that, I'd like to see the whole game, not just offense.
 
NYC cue dude said:
incidentally, the 1st 8 pack is worth a $100k bonus from kt.

rg
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HOLY CRAP!!!! I did not know that!!! Danny Harriman was only 3 balls away from that against Kiamco. He had 2 tied up balls that didnt get broke up on his 8th rack.
 
yes i am serious, but it is not just 8 break and runs. It is win the lag, and run out the set without your opponent shooting. (8 consecutive break and runs).

may not happen for awhile, if the ipt lasts that long.


rg
 
Blackjack said:
I think the questions that should be asked is this:

Was there anyone in the final 6 that should not have been there?

Does the final 2 sound like a battle for the championship in any high level event?

IMO, the answers are obvious. I think if they tightened up the equipment that you would still see the best players advancing through the rounds. Morris VS Reyes is not a fluke final or the result of guys playing all week on loose equipment. Both played strong all week long. They earned their spots and probably would have done so on the tougher equipment. I'm just disappointed that Bustamante and Boyes couldn't maintain their momentum, I was really pulling for both of them. If Karl Boyes keeps doing what he's doing, it won't be very long before we see him in an IPT final.
Click to expand...



Well said David.

The way I see it, the cream is alread rising to the top and all the players we expected to do well are meeting expectations. Sure there have been some darkhorses that have surprised us to an extent, but they definitely didn't fluke their way deep into the tournament because the equipment was too lose.


P.S. I thought the pockets were 4 and a quarter inches wide, which is
pretty tight to me.
 
At this point the main change I'd personally like to see from the IPT at present would be longer matches in the final stages. It is clear that when you got into the final 16 the skill levels were getting very close. Even with winner-breaks Efren and Rodney went back and forth in their match. (Although I'm not quite sure why in the Finals neither of them could manage more than 1 B&R each when they were running much more than that the rest of the week.)

Either a longer single race, or a set of races (Say best 3 out of 5 for the finals and best 2 out of 3 for the final 16) would be more fair, especially given the huge difference between the prize payout for 1st and 2nd place.
 
AuntyDan said:
Even with winner-breaks Efren and Rodney went back and forth in their match. (Although I'm not quite sure why in the Finals neither of them could manage more than 1 B&R each when they were running much more than that the rest of the week.)
Click to expand...

I can think of 350,000 possible reasons.;) :D
 
Celtic said:
Do you want to know what will fix it all? Tighten the pockets to 4 inches. This would make it ALOT harder to pocket balls on the break..
Click to expand...

I don't think this is the end-all. Look at snooker. Tremendously difficult to pot balls, yet the final players make it look like anyone can break a century. The best always make it look easier. But snooker matches (like the World's) have a long race that IMO sufficiently tests the players.

In the end, even 4" pocket or 3" pockets, the professionals will find the way to make it look easier than the rest of us could imagine. I think longer races are necessary.

That's why golf has 4 rounds, not just 1.

OTOH, bowling has a short single elimination finals compared to the round robin. But, the players are seeded. I like that aspect.

Fred
 
Overall, the format & equipment is good. Yes, it could be improved, but its the best we have right now.

One significant thing that is glossed over though is that Bustamante had gone undefeated for the first 4 days (while posting exemplary numbers), but had one mediocre afternoon and was out.

At the end of play...

Buste's "matches won %" was the highest of all players. Efren was 8th and Rodney was 13th.

Buste's "games won %" was the highest of all players. Efren was 4th and Rodney was 5th.

Buste's "B&R %" was the second highest of all players. Efren was 19th and Rodney was 3rd.

He didn't deserve to be dumped on the 5th day with astounding numbers like that. I don't pretend to have the solution, but I can see a problem.
 
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Unfortunately that how it supposed to be

mosconiac said:
Overall, the format & equipment is good. Yes, it could be improved, but its the best we have right now.

One significant thing that is glossed over though is that Bustamante had gone undefeated for the first 4 days (while posting exemplary numbers), but had one mediocre afternoon and was out.

At the end of play...

Buste's "matches won %" was the highest of all players. Efren was 8th and Rodney was 13th.

Buste's "games won %" was the highest of all players. Efren was 4th and Rodney was 5th.

Buste's "B&R %" was the second highest of all players. Efren was 19th and Rodney was 3rd.

He didn't deserve to be dumped on the 5th day with astounding numbers like that. I don't pretend to have the solution, but I can see a problem.
Click to expand...

You have to be on top of your game. It happens not just in pool.
 
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