The ref for the Shaw vs Ko Match should never be allowed to ref a match ever again

[KRJ]

OK, now I'm confused. Here are the racking rules for US Open. So, if using the Accu-rack, why would you need a re-rack? Anyone got video of this incident, be curious to see it.

II. Racking
The Accu-Rack is the only authorized rack. The Accu-Rack may be removed after the break
if both players agree to do so. After it’s removed, the Accu-Rack can not be placed on the rail. Upon request, at any time during the match, the Referee may be called upon to assist in removing the Accu-Rack, but it is the Referee’s decision as to whether the Accu-Rack can or cannot be safely removed.
Players must rack the 1-Ball in front, the 9-Ball on the spot, and the 2-Ball behind the 9-Ball. All other balls must be randomly placed. No pattern racking is allowed.
Players must rack their own when they are breaking.

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

Great response from Ko



Total registered 139.





Ouch!
I believe Karl is a member here and also the TD. Introduced a "funny" rule where for foul on 9ball, opponent has to shoot spot shot instead of getting BIH http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=456033

They need to bring back the vets like Jay, Ken Shuman or even Michaela Tabb to be TD

Shuman is there, I assumed was in charge too, at least as the head ref if not TD too. Karl is bad and was awful last year too. He seems like the backup not the TD. He doesn't even pay attention to most of the play. At one point last night he went over and had to ask the player if he touched a rail. Lets face it, 90% of the shots don't need a ref hanging over the shot but that one he asked about it was sort of obvious he should have been in position. The first few racks he had forgotten about the stupid 3 ball pass the head string rule and wasn't even down there to check on it being "legal" or not. I liked Donnie Mills giving his opinion of the rules during his commentary in the earlier match.

 

[hang-the-9]

Actually , the bigger question should be racking templates . I DO NOT ALLOW THEM in ANY of my action matches. Thought they were the end all be all............

Ps, I wouldnt feel right if I did not give credit to someone for that phrase lol. I got I from you, know you're reading this so.... ��

I was actually wondering what the issue was with them using the rack, I used that exact rack quite a few times since getting it a few weeks ago and had no issues with getting a good rack. I can see a standard rack having issues, but not the template rack if a bunch of B players can rack it properly in my weekly tournaments.

I did like a rule I have seen a few times that if the ref racked, you were not even allowed to check the rack, which may be an issue with a standard rack a bit (not with a good ref) and should be no issue with a template rack.

 

[LHP5]

Seems simple enough. The ref messed up. Multitude of reasons could be given: the pressure from Shaw got to him about the rack and he just caved, it was pretty late in the night (past 1:00am) and maybe the ref wasn't thinking clearly, or just the pressure from shaws come back also got to him and he just went along with the momentum. Either way the ref did mess up and should not be allowed to ref again for the remainder of the tournament.

The whole situation is odd as I thought the refs and players were not allowed to ask for a re-rack. This has happened on the tv table earlier in the tournament, but it just so happens this one is highlighted due to the outcome. Either way, enforce the rules and the ref messed up.

 

[poolscholar]

Just let them rack their own so we don't have to watch a 5 foot man try to rack the balls.

I've heard of bias refs, especially people travelling to Asia... so how do you know if the guy is neutral?

 

[Black-Balled]

Just let them rack their own so we don't have to watch a 5 foot man try to rack the balls.

I've heard of bias refs, especially people travelling to Asia... so how do you know if the guy is neutral?

That is subbing one problem for another. That is not a solution.

I know....yada, yada, yadah...youd rather...

No. Wrong is wrong. there are no degrees: only right or wrong.

2 Seinfeld references, one post.

 

[alstl]

Regardless of my bet or anything else it is completely unfair that the ref re-racked the balls for Shaw and not when Ko asked for it. It should be even rules for both players, either re-rack for both or not at all.

Come f*cking on man. This is supposed to be a pro event. Get someone that doesn't look like one of Charlies Oompa lumpa's to ref fairly. Not fair and I'm sad to see things like that happen is a sport that can clear make the game fair.

Money can make funny things happen.

 

[Positively Ralf]

I'm slowing building up my resume as a pool ref via my league and soon enough others throughout nyc. I have to say, I'm glad I'm an a**hole ref. I make sure the players follow the rules and if they do not like it I let them know to just leave.

maybe I can get to the us open one day to piss pro players off. I'm sure I would have the blessings of many here.

 

[ctyhntr]

According to discussions on facebook, its rack your own for every table. Only the TV table has a referee.

If the referee had difficulty re-racking or tired of Ko requesting, he should have used common sense, defaulted to the same rules applied to the other table and invite Ko to rack his own. If he/she wasn't sure or worst, over his/her head in this decision making then escalated to the head referee for guidance.

If there was a re-rack request limit, it should have been made clear. 'i.e' Ko, you already requested this 5 times in this match. There is a limit of 5, therefore request is denied'.

Having special rules exemptions for the TV table wouldn't make sense as it doesn't provide a level playing field for the players.

Just let them rack their own so we don't have to watch a 5 foot man try to rack the balls.

I've heard of bias refs, especially people travelling to Asia... so how do you know if the guy is neutral?

 

[Celophanewrap]

I didn't see any of the Open, but I did read Ko's post.
It's unfortunate that happened. A referee, IMO, should do
everything they can to remove him/her self from the match.
So the players decide who wins.

As a referee, the best matches I've refereed were ones that
I never had to leave my chair.

How many Taiwanese players were there this year?
Was this treatment typical of all Taiwanese players
throughout the tournament, or was it this one player
during this one match? Also, does anyone know: were
there any other complaints regarding this one referee?

Regardless, the way I've always understood it, if a player wants
a rerack they get one, there's almost no basis for denying as much
unless the rules of the event dictate so.

Even so, I would like to know a little more about all this, other viewers
opinions, other players opinions.... anyone?.... anyone?.....

 

[spartan]

i

Yeh but finals are different. Nobody is eliminated in a final, they get a silver medal or cup or money or something. Just make it a longer race, as you would in a single elimination or a round robin tournament. Double elimination is about reducing variance and accommodating for starting slow. Just make the final longer.

What you talking about is the Modified DA format they have been using for years which is basically 2 stages -
1st stage DA to decide winners for winner and loser bracket
2nd stage Final (extended race) between the 2 winners

On other hand, True or Pure DA is one stage only. Winner of loser bracket plays winner of winner bracket (hotseat) . If Winner of loser bracket wins, they play another match to decide who wins the title. In other words, the winner of loser bracket has to beat hotseat player twice to win title. Length of race for all matches throughout whole tourney is same.

Shuman is there, I assumed was in charge too, at least as the head ref if not TD too. Karl is bad and was awful last year too. He seems like the backup not the TD. He doesn't even pay attention to most of the play. At one point last night he went over and had to ask the player if he touched a rail. Lets face it, 90% of the shots don't need a ref hanging over the shot but that one he asked about it was sort of obvious he should have been in position. The first few racks he had forgotten about the stupid 3 ball pass the head string rule and wasn't even down there to check on it being "legal" or not. I liked Donnie Mills giving his opinion of the rules during his commentary in the earlier match.

Hmm that is funny cos he previously posted here that he is tournament director (TD)

According to discussions on facebook, its rack your own for every table. Only the TV table has a referee.

If the referee had difficulty re-racking or tired of Ko requesting, he should have used common sense, defaulted to the same rules applied to the other table and invite Ko to rack his own. If he/she wasn't sure or worst, over his/her head in this decision making then escalated to the head referee for guidance.

If there was a re-rack request limit, it should have been made clear. 'i.e' Ko, you already requested this 5 times in this match. There is a limit of 5, therefore request is denied'.

Having special rules exemptions for the TV table wouldn't make sense as it doesn't provide a level playing field for the players.

I think you missed the point. It was not whether ref should or should not rack. Issue was unfairness/ inconsistent treatment by ref i.e. he reracked for Shaw when Shaw requested but did not rerack for Ko when Ko requested. If he reracked for both or he did not reracked for both, there would be no issue. :grin:

 

[decent dennis]

What you talking about is the Modified DA format they have been using for years which is basically 2 stages -
1st stage DA to decide winners for winner and loser bracket
2nd stage Final (extended race) between the 2 winners

On other hand, True or Pure DA is one stage only. Winner of loser bracket plays winner of winner bracket (hotseat) . If Winner of loser bracket wins, they play another match to decide who wins the title. In other words, the winner of loser bracket has to beat hotseat player twice to win title. Length of race for all matches throughout whole tourney is same.



Hmm that is funny cos he previously posted here that he is tournament director (TD)




I think you missed the point. It was not whether ref should or should not rack. Issue was unfairness/ inconsistent treatment by ref i.e. he reracked for Shaw when Shaw requested but did not rerack for Ko when Ko requested. If he reracked for both or he did not reracked for both, there would be no issue. :grin:

What is true or pure DA? Are you guys trying to say double elimination?

 

[Icon of Sin]

Racking issues are nothing new to the US Open. Every year they try to do something to fix it... the only real "fix" IMO is to let the players rack their own with a traditional rack and put the 1 on the spot. Snaps dont count.

If you dont know enough about the rack to help yourself out, then you don't deserve to win. We all gamble playing rack your own a lot. If packages happen, then so be it.

 

[ctyhntr]

As for a level playing field,I agree with you, consistency is key. Since the referee re-racked for Shaw, he should have re-racked for Ko, allowed for Ko to rack for himself or provided an explanation why he did not. I read on facebook, it was rack your own on the other tables.

What you talking about is the Modified DA format they have been using for years which is basically 2 stages -
1st stage DA to decide winners for winner and loser bracket
2nd stage Final (extended race) between the 2 winners

On other hand, True or Pure DA is one stage only. Winner of loser bracket plays winner of winner bracket (hotseat) . If Winner of loser bracket wins, they play another match to decide who wins the title. In other words, the winner of loser bracket has to beat hotseat player twice to win title. Length of race for all matches throughout whole tourney is same.



Hmm that is funny cos he previously posted here that he is tournament director (TD)




I think you missed the point. It was not whether ref should or should not rack. Issue was unfairness/ inconsistent treatment by ref i.e. he reracked for Shaw when Shaw requested but did not rerack for Ko when Ko requested. If he reracked for both or he did not reracked for both, there would be no issue. :grin:

 

[Ak Guy]

Wowser!

Ko is one of the best and an all around classy pro that from the sounds of this thread, did not get equal treatment by the referee.

I hope Shaw comes out with a strong statement on the referee, as I believe it would be a real character and respect builder for him that would boost his image. An image as a top tier professional player in all respects.

I hope the 2 of them have a 9 or 10 Ball challenge match in the near future with multiple sets or one long set. Winner breaks, a real shoot out and some one like Jay H. refereeing and racking for them.

The winning opponent should always protest unfair treatment of the opponent he defeated if it took place. Pool needs that and that caliber of pro players.

The win at all costs attitude never promotes the growth of any sport and stops a sport from having champions that fans look up to.

 

[jasonlaus]

The point everybody is missing is that it's a template rack and a rerack shouldn't be needed. Every event they use the accu rack there are issues with it.
Get one that works and eliminate this problem. Does the magic rack have this issue?
Jason

 

[JoeyInCali]

The point everybody is missing is that it's a template rack and a rerack shouldn't be needed. Every event they use the accu rack there are issues with it.
Get one that works and eliminate this problem. Does the magic rack have this issue?
Jason

Only if the balls are not the same sizes.

 

[Coop1701]

The point everybody is missing is that it's a template rack and a rerack shouldn't be needed. Every event they use the accu rack there are issues with it.
Get one that works and eliminate this problem. Does the magic rack have this issue?
Jason

I have never cared for the Accu rack. Magic Rack is much more dependable and sturdy. They should do like the Mosconi Cup. You can not question the referee's rack. You can inspect it. look it over, but you are not allowed to question it.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Number of balls pocketed and winner of games in question, please?

 

[Coop1701]

Number of balls pocketed and winner of games in question, please?

Shaw won..., 11 to 10 I believe and I don't know about the number of balls pocketed.