The thing most people won't do, why systems don't help certain people

Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
 
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Set up the shot, ok
Shoot it 500 times, No chance!

The same exact shot over and over for hours? OMG no!
Does that mean I'll never be good - or just that I'll never be a snooker pro?

Right now, I'm trying to teach myself. I got some videos and a few books, and some YouTube going on. I got some Virtual Pool on my PC. Am I your target audience for this thread?
Truth is, these resources probably make up 1/10 of my time investment - like having a reference set that you reference from time to time.

Right now, I spend about 1 to 1 1/2 hours drilling on a daily basis. I start out with straight-shot drills, right handed and left handed, then work on whatever I've picked to work on.
I might for example go through as many as two racks on a particular shot - but that's 30 balls, not 500.

Seems to be working for me so far... did I miss your point, or am I just wrong?
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either.
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the answer to your question is the same answer to any question about why someone doesnt do what it takes to get results they say they want.....

the answer being "they dont want it bad enough"
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."
Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?
How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.
I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.
Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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Very well put. Sentiments I have espoused for years.
I already knew how to play pool when I began playing One Pocket, some twenty years ago, and early on I did invest in books, VHS tapes (good Lord), etc. I did not, and still wouldn't, take a lesson from an instructor because I wanted to learn One Pocket my way, not his. Now that I've got one foot in the grave, and the other on a banana peel, I am convinced my choices were correct.
The only way to learn a shot and expect to make it with any degree of certainty is to shoot it over, and over, until you can. Five hundred times may be an exaggeration, and maybe it's not. It all depends on you and the shot.
In my opinion, those who need to spend money on instruction are those who probably had potty training difficulties. They just need someone there to tell them they're doing good. Whether they retain anything of value is usually beside the point. :smile:
 
Learning in of itself is a skill. And not everyone is motivated enough to put in the long hours needed to change bad habits or learn good ones. I don't know how many instructors operate so I can't comment, but ideally, they should also work with the student to set up a weekly practice plan to meet their goals in addition to other areas of instruction.

For me, key areas of improvement have always come from adjustments to technique. I haven't changed my aiming method in 10 years, but my shotmaking has improved considerably in that time due to better alignment, balance and delivery.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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Very true about a lot of players. But that doesn't mean that lessons won't help them. Lessons are good information. Players will advance at their own pace. Some will advance at a snails pace and cry and complain all the way through. That doesn't change the fact that lessons from a good instructor are a good source of information.

90% Of the players who come to me for lessons won't do the required work. I know it. But my job is to give them the tools to get better. Then it's up to them. So telling someone it's a waste of time to take a lesson because they don't want to work is like telling them not to bother pursuing good information. Good information will always be good information.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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Reminds me of why I am good at juicing up the cueball. I needed a new tip on my cue (not long after starting to play). The repair guy passed the cue back to me and said to try a draw shot........I muffed it 4 times in a row. 2 stopped dead and 2 miscues.

I practiced draw shots for hours. Now I can make whitey dance pretty well and it is my favorite part of playing pool

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
Its a tough game. I figure your either going to work very, very hard (this can be done with a library card and access to a pool table and some competitors .) Or your not.

That is all.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They already know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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Systems Im finding are like paint by numbers; Recipes that will get you a picture but they wont really train your eye. The eye is what needs to be trained to understand what impact it will take between two balls to result in a pocket. Looking at imaginary lines and then tilting or looking at shadows....recipes for lack of eye training.

NOTE: Im not a good player, Im not a coach, Im not a rapper.
 
I agree completely with the OP. To improve at this game, you have to want it bad enough to actually DO IT. Those who want it that bad, will find a way to become the best they can.
 
Thee is a single system that will work for anyone who has the patience to let the system work. It is called the scientific method. People don't follow it for reasons already expressed :"They don't want it bad enough".

The scientific method is all about figuring out how the world works! The pool version requires the player to actually bother to observe the feeling his arm gives as it delivers the cue to the cue-ball, how the bridge fingers feel as the cue glides through them, how the cue ball rolls down the table towards the object ball, how the object ball reacts to the impact of the cue ball, etc, tec, etc.

Only if you observe can you figure out what happened.
Only if you know what happened can you make a useful correction.
Only if you observe a shot using a correction can you determine in the correction was useful.

Observation is the key, most people don't even begin to bother.
 
Thats right!

JoeyInCali said:
Any system boils down to sending that cue ball to the right location.
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Absolutely right! The process by which that happens becomes very important in that if ones technique doesn't invoke confidence then its hard to learn from that situation. If the technique is hit one million balls that makes it harder in this day and time because there is no getting around .....one needs to practice part of playing pool....however a technique that speaks to you and gives you confidence is at least half of the battle.


FranCrimi said:
Very true about a lot of players. But that doesn't mean that lessons won't help them. Lessons are good information. Players will advance at their own pace. Some will advance at a snails pace and cry and complain all the way through. That doesn't change the fact that lessons from a good instructor are a good source of information.

90% Of the players who come to me for lessons won't do the required work. I know it. But my job is to give them the tools to get better. Then it's up to them. So telling someone it's a waste of time to take a lesson because they don't want to work is like telling them not to bother pursuing good information. Good information will always be good information.
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I agree 100%. There is always a cheap way out if one is trying to avoid the work that is needed, but nothing will replace having a coach standing there and telling you what you are doing because they can see it much better than you can.

I think it was Jung who said that learning occurs through pain. Some of us need that pain a little more than others but that in no way devalues the need for instruction. You can get it from a professional or you can get it from a player. When you get beat and it doesn't involve some money, you're not as likely to think its something you did or didn't do. When someone takes your money, the sting is just a little more pronounced. So when you pay an instructor you invoke the power of the payment. They are a professional and you are paying for a service and its up to you to listen. If you listen you might save yourself a whole lot of pain later.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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Yes, it's hitting 500 shots.

But it is more than that and I suspect most players do not know how to learn from hitting the 500 shots.

Pool is so idiosyncratic that -- unless you're a 101 player -- beyond the basic physics of the balls you need to focus on teaching yourself the mechanics. That's what will pay dividends in the long run. Having someone else teach you how they shoot, or how they think you should shoot, is a dead end.

Of the very few lessons I've taken, what I've asked to be taught (by world champions) was how to think. Sure, I got a few mechanical tidbits thrown in and that was gravy. But to have someone disassemble your stance and stroke and then reassemble it in their image is a waste of money, IMO. I see these guys at the pool room all the time and often you can even tell they just recently took a lesson and even who their instructor was. Two weeks of frustration later... they are back at it the old way.

Lou Figueroa
 
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If your fundamentals are not correct, you can hit shots a 1,000 times, yet tomorrow you'll probably be no better. So few of us have the gift of complete repeatability, perfect aim, and the consistent ability to play situations properly.

If you watch a lot of pro play, 95+% succeed because of proper fundamentals. Their posture, stance, stroke, and transition repeat over and over. Armed with those repeating abilities, their experience then takes over.

I've had numerous sessions over the past year with a high level tournament professional. We've spent over 80% of training time together working on nothing but fundamentals. He would tell me - "Until you get this corrected, we can't go forward". So I would go away and focus on that problem. Once corrected, then on to next situation. It was a lot of work and many hours of frustration, but I now feel my fundamentals are completely ingrained and I can make any shot I get down on. My level of play and confidence has sky-rocketed because of the time invested in the basics. I don't make everything, but the mental feedback from missed shots is so valuable because you know what you did wrong.

I used to play a lot of golf and got down to a 5 index, thanks to professional instruction. The pro had a saying that " 80% of bad shots are hit before the club is ever swung". This was due to either bad alignment, bad grip, or bad posture. Granted there a lot more moving parts in a golf swing, but the same concepts hold true in pool stroke.

So I guess my point is spending money for professional help is money well spent, providing you find an instructor who will instill the proper fundamentals in your game. The rest is then up to you.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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I highly doubt Alex sat up to a table and shot 500 shots of the same shot in a row ,, one thing Iv learned is good pool players greatly exaggerate thier practice time , Iv seen countless pro's practice Iv never seen one practice the same shot 500 times in a row a hundred maybe but never 5

1
 
MitchAlsup said:
Observation is the key, most people don't even begin to bother.
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As Yogi said, "You can see a lot by observing."

What I have seen while observing, is most new players want to run before they can walk.

I watched a C player teaching a novice. He was trying to teach him to massee.

I compare it to building a house. All of the fancy details are not worth much without a good foundation.

A good instructor will show You how to build your game from the ground up. Saves so much time in the long run.
 
gregcantrall said:
As Yogi said, "You can see a lot by observing."

What I have seen while observing, is most new players want to run before they can walk.

I watched a C player teaching a novice. He was trying to teach him to massee.

I compare it to building a house. All of the fancy details are not worth much without a good foundation.

A good instructor will show You how to build your game from the ground up. Saves so much time in the long run.
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So true and under utilized in this country , you can substantially cut down the learning process with a good instructor , you can keep form with a instructor with a keen eye that can spot the little flaws in set up and stroke , of course this group of instructors is far smaller and only needed for advanced players but I'm sure we a have a few at that level
At my level B Scott Lee could see flaws in my stroke at 56 it's much harder to change those flaws but Iv spent many hours to improve those and I have to a extent and it's certianly helped my game
1
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
There's been a lot of talk about systems, instructors etc lately. There is nothing wrong about that, but they can only help you if you have the right mindset. I remember reading one time about a snooker pro beeing questioned about a shot he made, by a journalist
"So, how did you make that shot?"
"Set up the shot, shoot it 500 times, and you'll know."

Alex Pagulayan also expressed a similar sentiment in an interview. He said to be honest with yourself about what you are bad at, then work on those things. What Alex is saying sounds really simple, right? Then how come nobody does that?

How many times have you heard Clueless Carl down at the club say "I'm no good at combinations" or something similar? Do you think Carl set up a combination 500 times? That's right, I don't think so either. But I bet he is probably watching a million instructional tapes etc.. If you are not willing to do the work, nobody can help you. I've tried nearly everything on offer in billiards, so let me save you some money right now: There is no such thing as a short-cut. Every single system, teaching method or whatever requires that you work on them, A LOT. I don't think any single one of them is a lot faster than the others. One or another will maybe be better for you, but you'll still have to work just as hard. No quick fixes.

I'm not anti-system, anti-instruction or anything like that. I use systems myself, I've paid for instruction. The thing is, though, I think a lot of people are just wasting their money on them. They allready know that they won't do the work, might as well be honest about it. That new cue, expensive lesson or whatever, won't help them one bit. When a guy tells you he can't do this, or this system doesn't help me with that, what he's really saying is he WON'T do this and the system won't shoot the shot for him.

Sorry about the rant, I just came from the pool hall and needed to vent a bit.
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THIS post should be a sticky
 
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