The thing most people won't do, why systems don't help certain people

[Johnnyt]

Almost 70 years ago my Dad taught me to aim by drawing an imagery line though the center of the pocket and through the OB. Where that line comes out of the OB is where you want to have your CB touch. On severe cut shots you can't see the contact point, but with practicing each shot you'll figure it out fast. I used that way all my pool playing life. He said there are really only about a dozen shots you need to be able to make and a slight variation on all of them.

No matter what system you choose to use, there will always be some "FIGURE IT OUT" involved. Johnnyt

 

[Icon of Sin]

Set up the shot, ok
Shoot it 500 times, No chance!

The same exact shot over and over for hours? OMG no!
Does that mean I'll never be good - or just that I'll never be a snooker pro?

If it is a shot you have trouble with and you dont do something similar to this, its not a question of whether you will be good overall or not, it more like you will not be good/confident at that shot.

500 is a lot. Id be open to it though. Currently, I try to remember the shots I miss/mess up position on/etc and then I repeat those shots in practice. I will shoot the shot 100 times and in groups of 10 and record my results after each group whether successful or not successful (ie, 4 good, 6 bad)

Then after I shoot 10 groups of 10 I can go back to my results and I will have a decent percentage of how often that shot was successful and thanks to shooting it in groups of 10, I can see if I improved on it the more I shot it. That entire process takes under an hour so it really isnt that bad.

just my 2cents

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Almost 70 years ago my Dad taught me to aim by drawing an imagery line though the center of the pocket and through the OB. Where that line comes out of the OB is where you want to have your CB touch. On severe cut shots you can't see the contact point, but with practicing each shot you'll figure it out fast. I used that way all my pool playing life. He said there are really only about a dozen shots you need to be able to make and a slight variation on all of them.
No matter what system you choose to use, there will always be some "FIGURE IT OUT" involved. Johnnyt

Johnny, when you an I were yoots we didn't have the money to throw at an instructor to solve our pool playing problems, but we did have enough self-confidence to know that we could, as you say, figure it out.
When I did have a problem I could always ask John Lamar, a guy who used to clean tables and help Joe, the local poolroom owner, run the place. John had long thin fingers that could make the prettiest bridge you ever saw. He also had a hawk like nose, and natural hair that only needed one swipe with a comb. The girls dug him.
Rest in peace, John.

 

[Run-Out]

I think Alex also said in that interview, are you willing to give up your job? Are you willing to be 10 hours a day in a pool hall?

You get as good as the amount of constructive time you put on the table.

 

[jburkm002]

How does someone recognize they have an issue? Once they do recognize they have an issue. How do they correct that issue? So someone says to see if you have a straight stroke. Line up the cue ball in a straight line to the bottom rally. Hit center English and if the cue consistently comes back and hits your tip. You have a pretty decent straight stroke. Well what if it doesn't come back and hit your tip? What do you do?

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[Icon of Sin]

I think Alex also said in that interview, are you willing to give up your job? Are you willing to be 10 hours a day in a pool hall?

Willing to giveup job... Can't
Willing to spend 10 hours a day in a pool hall... Yes (if I didnt need the job)

 

[BmoreMoney]

Set up the shot, ok
Shoot it 500 times, No chance!

The same exact shot over and over for hours?


I know there are folks on both sides of my opinion , both deeply entrenched on either side so let's forego that debate lol. My opinion is that after getting basic Instruction and reaching at least a minimal speed the best way to become a " player " putting yourself out there, putting up YOUR OWN CHEEZ, and gettin in action ! !!!

As half Jack mentioned, there is absolutely ZERO chance that I will get a table of my own for hours on end and shoot the same shot 500 times or however many times lol! However what I would / could / should do is get in action and that shot you're supposed to shoot 500 times WILL in fact come up over and over again while I'm in action , AND when it comes up you can be DAMN sure that the shot will command my FULL attention, and my absolute best effort to make said shot. Now can I say the same things about the shot if I'm alone on a table " practicing "??? He'll no lolol. I would have been " practicing " " that shot " for probably every bit of 2 minutes before wanting to kill myself from boredom. The end result would be me slamming a 5 rail bank a 1000 MPH just to see if I could get it to drop ONCE -

Again I'm being completely serious but definitely a big LOL! Just as in life, different things work for different people and if lessons and practice truly gets you to where ya wanna be then so be it, wish ya the best of luck but for whatever the reason it just isn't my cup of tea.

 

[KissedOut]

Almost 70 years ago my Dad taught me to aim by drawing an imagery line though the center of the pocket and through the OB. Where that line comes out of the OB is where you want to have your CB touch. On severe cut shots you can't see the contact point, but with practicing each shot you'll figure it out fast. I used that way all my pool playing life. He said there are really only about a dozen shots you need to be able to make and a slight variation on all of them.

No matter what system you choose to use, there will always be some "FIGURE IT OUT" involved. Johnnyt

There is a youtube of mosconi explaining aiming. He started the same way as your dad, with the line from the pocket to the object ball. This he explained, is the point at which the cue ball had to contact the object ball to make the shot. But then he said that you then adjust which spot on the CUE BALL was going to hit that spot based on the angle of the cut. He didn't talk about the angle or a ghost ball or anything like it, he talked about making a specific point on the cue ball hit that predetermined spot on the object ball. It was a very different way of looking at it and frankly it didn't sound all that helpful to me - but how do you argue with the greatest pool player in history?

Here is the video - interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_pkT2Nm2Hs

 

[336Robin]

Traditional Technique

There is a youtube of mosconi explaining aiming. He started the same way as your dad, with the line from the pocket to the object ball. This he explained, is the point at which the cue ball had to contact the object ball to make the shot. But then he said that you then adjust which spot on the CUE BALL was going to hit that spot based on the angle of the cut. He didn't talk about the angle or a ghost ball or anything like it, he talked about making a specific point on the cue ball hit that predetermined spot on the object ball. It was a very different way of looking at it and frankly it didn't sound all that helpful to me - but how do you argue with the greatest pool player in history?

Here is the video - interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_pkT2Nm2Hs

Ive seen this video before, nice video.

This traditional explanation is all that some people need however there are a good bit of people that dont connect well with it on distance, certain angles, they have doubts and never shoot for the same consistent picked out point twice or they just fail to understand how to deliver correctly because of the parallax on the shot.

Yes it is a simple explanation, but for many there is just a whole lot more that needs explained. Not everyone has the capability or the same depth perception ability nor do they understand how to make the correct point on the cue ball arrive where it should. There isn't anything wrong with those people because they don't get it they way its explained, there might just be more to it.

 

[alstl]

Not all systems are of equal value. Some are just a guy trying to hustle a gimmick. I use only two systems - both kicking systems. I learned one by watching Johnny Archer play and I learned another from a youtube video.

If the point is some people see a system as a shortcut to replace hours spent at the table then I agree completely. "Systems" might point you in a general direction but they can't replace hours of hitting balls.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Not all systems are of equal value. Some are just a guy trying to hustle a gimmick. I use only two systems - both kicking systems. I learned one by watching Johnny Archer play and I learned another from a youtube video.

If the point is some people see a system as a shortcut to replace hours spent at the table then I agree completely. "Systems" might point you in a general direction but they can't replace hours of hitting balls.

You're right, and nothing can. But then, those of us who have played pool for any length of time would know that. :smile:

 

[336Robin]

Systems do not impart stroke

Not all systems are of equal value. Some are just a guy trying to hustle a gimmick. I use only two systems - both kicking systems. I learned one by watching Johnny Archer play and I learned another from a youtube video.

If the point is some people see a system as a shortcut to replace hours spent at the table then I agree completely. "Systems" might point you in a general direction but they can't replace hours of hitting balls.

Techniques, Systems or Methods do not impart confidence which has to happen before stance and stroke techniques can be perfected. Confidence comes from knowing you are going to make the shot.

 

[ceebee]

A little girl watching a Pro Player practicing ash the player, "why do you shoot the same shot over & over". The player answered, "because it comes up in every game". That phrase helps me shoot many redundant shots, when practicing.

 

[fastone371]

Yes, it's hitting 500 shots.

But it is more than that and I suspect most players do not know how to learn from hitting the 500 shots.

Pool is so idiosyncratic that -- unless you're a 101 player -- beyond the basic physics of the balls you need to focus on teaching yourself the mechanics. That's what will pay dividends in the long run. Having someone else teach you how they shoot, or how they think you should shoot, is a dead end.

Of the very few lessons I've taken, what I've asked to be taught (by world champions) was how to think. Sure, I got a few mechanical tidbits thrown in and that was gravy. But to have someone disassemble your stance and stroke and then reassemble it in their image is a waste of money, IMO. I see these guys at the pool room all the time and often you can even tell they just recently took a lesson and even who their instructor was. Two weeks of frustration later... they are back at it the old way.

Lou Figueroa

I could not agree with you more. I spent a couple hours with a very good local player and he kept wanting to change my fundamentals. After 30-45 minutes I had to explain to him what I was after and what I wanted to learn from him. We were then able to get down to business.

 

[336Robin]

Robert Byrne says..

I could not agree with you more. I spent a couple hours with a very good local player and he kept wanting to change my fundamentals. After 30-45 minutes I had to explain to him what I was after and what I wanted to learn from him. We were then able to get down to business.

Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards....p.9..There is no one correct stance. Concerning Stroke.....p. 15....don't hurry the final back swing and don't hesitate at the rear of it. This is a common flaw. He didn't follow the conventions of popularly taught principles and he played pretty well. I saw a Youtube of Mike Massey doing the power draw and he said to do the power draw you have to drop the shoulder on the follow through.

 

[Johnnyt]

I have said this on AZB a few times. If you could trace the best players back to there childhood, you would find just about all of them started playing at a very young age. You would also find that there family or relative owned a poolroom or they had a very good player in the family. Most quit school when they could beat everyone in their town or county. They went on the road around 16 years of age. That's why most of them laugh when you ask them about systems. Johnnyt

 

[lfigueroa]

If your fundamentals are not correct, you can hit shots a 1,000 times, yet tomorrow you'll probably be no better.

And that's what I mean. Most players don't know how to hit the 500 or 1,000 shots and learn from that process.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I highly doubt Alex sat up to a table and shot 500 shots of the same shot in a row ,, one thing Iv learned is good pool players greatly exaggerate thier practice time , Iv seen countless pro's practice Iv never seen one practice the same shot 500 times in a row a hundred maybe but never 5

1

500, 1,000, 10,000 shots -- it's a metaphor for the process of doing the reps, doing the road work, doing the hard, ugly business of improving.

Lou Figueroa

 

[KRJ]

Yes, it's hitting 500 shots.

But it is more than that and I suspect most players do not know how to learn from hitting the 500 shots.

Pool is so idiosyncratic that -- unless you're a 101 player -- beyond the basic physics of the balls you need to focus on teaching yourself the mechanics. That's what will pay dividends in the long run. Having someone else teach you how they shoot, or how they think you should shoot, is a dead end.

Of the very few lessons I've taken, what I've asked to be taught (by world champions) was how to think. Sure, I got a few mechanical tidbits thrown in and that was gravy. But to have someone disassemble your stance and stroke and then reassemble it in their image is a waste of money, IMO. I see these guys at the pool room all the time and often you can even tell they just recently took a lesson and even who their instructor was. Two weeks of frustration later... they are back at it the old way.

Lou Figueroa

Hmmmm, kinda weird. SVB didn't do to bad with his lessons. I'm thinking he did even a little bit better than avg

 

[lfigueroa]

How does someone recognize they have an issue? Once they do recognize they have an issue. How do they correct that issue? So someone says to see if you have a straight stroke. Line up the cue ball in a straight line to the bottom rally. Hit center English and if the cue consistently comes back and hits your tip. You have a pretty decent straight stroke. Well what if it doesn't come back and hit your tip? What do you do?

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You recognize you have an issue when the ball does not go in the pocket and/or the CB does not behave the way you expect it to.

You correct that issue by paying attention and altering and experimenting with your footwork, stance, bridge, grip, stroke and (dare I say it) head/eye position. No instructor on earth is going to be able to devine what the ideal is for you. Because we all see things differently, move differently, and set up differently every player has to do that through trial and error to achieve maximum quality of play.

Having said that, almost any player of quality can look at a player of lesser ability and give them something to work on. (Cha-Ching for the lesson.) But it will never make them into the player they could be.

Lou Figueroa