The tourney I was running just died...(rant)

[Jodacus]

Pool Players

I'm not trying to hijack your thread but in an
effort to help pool I would like to make one
suggestion to all pool players.

I don't drink alcohol when I play pool. In a bar
I may drink one soft drink all night. What I do
to help the bar is tip the bar tender ten, fifteen,
or twenty dollars. The owners of the place like
this since it helps out the employees and helps
keep them happy. In a place that I frequent I get
exceptional service on the rare occasion that I
want anything extra and it helps counter the idea
that pool players sre cheap!

Just my .02 worth.

Play hard
Joe

 

[Cdryden]

To the OP, I feel for ya. I have had to deal with similar situations before. It sucks when you have to deal with owner would would step over a dollar to pick up a dime.

 

[Rackemep]

Just to play devils advocate, two guys like that that come in regular can way outspend spend your group that come in once a week and never show up at any other times. The owner seemed to have a sort of loyalty to them so he puts some kind of value on them. Why is your first reaction and reference to them as "A couple of drunks")?

In fact your whole description of them with the milking a pitcher of beer sounds pretty bias because you can't have what you want. Owners tend to have more loyalty to regulars they depend on, then customers that are here today and gone tomorrow. I am sure he didn't want to offend them or he would have chased them off the table.

Again, Just to play devils advocate you possibly are not being very objective or see any of this from the owners point of view.

I can see things exactly from the owners point of view....Thursdays are dead, no risk of loss of business if we hold a pool tournament (might even stand to gain a little business) Thursday tourney is picking up speed and attracting more than just tournament folk <----oh wait! you mean there is business now on Thursdays besides the tournament guys...Shit we dont need them anymore because these other people are here....

And yes I refer to the two guys as drunks...They pre-game it at their house and then go to the bar and milk a picture of beer (they live just down the street from me...its not like its the first time I've ever met them...Kingman is a small town)..They started to figure out that if they just stayed on the table and kept putting quarters up that the bar tender and owner would tell us we had to wait until they were done to get the table...It became a game to them...i offered to pay for there entry's the first night they showed up...as soon as they found out it was BCA rules they wouldnt play...Tracey (one of the drunks) even hung around for the whole tournament one night and heckled us for playing Jap pool and Chickenshit pool...told me I ran a rigged tournament because I bring in red circle cue balls...

Do I feel a sense of entitlement? Yeah I guess I do...I made flyers, Talked to the local radio station, tried to get the local billiards supply place to sponsor the tourney, I called everyone every week to come to the tourney and then came in and ran the thing all on a hand shake from the owner who told us if we have more than 8 player we can have both tables....I spent my money in there and in my opinion you'd have to be blind to not see that the tournament was helping thursday nights at the bar....

He really doesn't need another place, just come to some understanding with the owner to resolve this, very small problem and start again. Like someone else said, a sign advertising the tournament would do the trick. Then you just tell whoever is on the table, "The tournament is about to start, if you would like to play we would be happy to have you".

I had these hanging up all over the bar, and all over kingman...I spent about $100 of my own money just in advertising...When talking to the bar owner about what would make it the tournament work from his perspective he said make it a $10 tournament $5 per player go's to the house and $5 go's in the pot...I kind of laughed and said I could maybe talk everyone into a $2 greens fee...I mean hell based on a 10 player average thats over 1k a year that just the tournament alone would bring to the house not to mention the drink sales...Do I need to find a different place to run the tourney?...Probably because the bar owner isn't reasonable....

Great idea about the sign, but shouldn't the owner take that initiative?

FWIU, the OP has done all of the legwork so far...established the tourney, advertised it (even if just word of mouth), grew it into something worthwhile, and even ran the d@mn things.

The owner has freely reaped what the OP sowed...assuming the bar doesn't contribute $ to the tourney or something else.

metallicane is correct...forest for the trees.

^ ^ ^ This...The bar adds no money...The bar had no extra responsibility when it came to the tourney...The only thing I was able to talk him into was opening the tables so we didnt have to drop .50 a game and so we could use red circle cue balls...once we started having problems I even asked if we could continue to use our own cue balls (still needed the table open) but we'd pay the fifty cents a rack...

Every other place that I've run tournaments the owners and staff will throw you a bone...These guys just threw us out...

 

[Island Drive]

I can see things exactly from the owners point of view....Thursdays are dead, no risk of loss of business if we hold a pool tournament (might even stand to gain a little business) Thursday tourney is picking up speed and attracting more than just tournament folk <----oh wait! you mean there is business now on Thursdays besides the tournament guys...Shit we dont need them anymore because these other people are here....

And yes I refer to the two guys as drunks...They pre-game it at their house and then go to the bar and milk a picture of beer (they live just down the street from me...its not like its the first time I've ever met them...Kingman is a small town)..They started to figure out that if they just stayed on the table and kept putting quarters up that the bar tender and owner would tell us we had to wait until they were done to get the table...i offered to pay for there entry's the first night they showed up...as soon as they found out it was BCA rules they wouldnt play...Tracey (one of the drunks) even hung around for the whole tournament one night and heckled us for playing Jap pool and Chickenshit pool...told me I ran a rigged tournament because I bring in red circle cue balls...

Do I feel a sense of entitlement? Yeah I guess I do...I made flyers, Talked to the local radio station, tried to get the local billiards supply place to sponsor the tourney, I called everyone every week to come to the tourney and then came in and ran the thing all on a hand shake from the owner who told us if we have more than 8 player we can have both tables....I spent my money in there and in my opinion you'd have to be blind to not see that the tournament was helping thursday nights at the bar....



I had these hanging up all over the bar, and all over kingman...I spent about $100 of my own money just in advertising...When talking to the bar owner about what would make it the tournament work from his perspective he said make it a $10 tournament $5 per player go's to the house and $5 go's in the pot...I kind of laughed and said I could maybe talk everyone into a $2 greens fee...I mean hell based on a 10 player average thats over 10k a year that just the tournament alone would bring to the house...Do I need to find a different place to run the tourney?...Probably because the bar owner isn't reasonable....

^ ^ ^ This...The bar adds no money...The bar had no extra responsibility when it came to the tourney...The only thing I was able to talk him into was opening the tables so we didnt have to drop .50 a game and so we could use red circle cue balls...once we started having problems I even asked if we could continue to use our own cue balls (still needed the table open) but we'd pay the fifty cents a rack...

Every other place that I've run tournaments the owners and staff will throw you a bone...These guys just threw us out...

The most impt aspect of your business is the integrity of the individual that owns the biz, and that in itself is a total crap shoot. It's no different than your third date with a new gal, you know the animal allot better now, and are able to make an informed decision fly or stay.

 

[macguy]

In a group of 15 people, there's bound to be a few who will get used to coming to that bar. Tournaments get people in the doors... maybe 10 of them pay entry only and drink water with a net of zero gain for the bar. The other 5 might not spend big every time, but the bar will be a default go-to place when they want to maybe grab a drink with a coworker. Particularly if the bar isn't adding money, and is just a location... it makes sense to keep a crowd in the bar.

The owner doesn't understand this at all. When you do advertising you may spend thousands of dollars to pick up a few new customers that will become regulars. I once read that credit card companies feel they pay about $1000.00 per new customer. The secret of any promotion or advertising is to get people through the door. Once they are there it is up to you as the owner if they ever come back.

I once handed a business card to a guy in an auto parts store because he commented on my pool related tee shirt. That 2 cent card turned out to be worth to me about $30,000,00. I later estimated. He was the manager of a large mens store. After coming in by himself he began bringing in his workers. I think because he liked showing off his pool playing.

Every Friday the whole crew would show up as well as they would come in at other times with their wives and friends. This went on for the three years I still owned the place and continued for years after I sold it. Tens of thousands of dollars from a business card handed to the right guy. I always like to tell this story because many business owners don't really know the value of a new face.

The owner of this bar in question has no idea of the cost he would have to go to to bring in that many new faces and the possible value they could be. Just ask him who his best customer is. At one time that best customer he values so much came in for the first time and decided to come back. It is hard to make this argument to someone in business without sounding like you are lecturing them. Their first reaction will be to not listen but it is something they should already know.
I would bet 9 out of 10 business that are doing OK and feel they are successful, maybe for no other reason then they didn't go broke, don't actually do their real potential.

 

[cueman]

Here is a solution. Ask the owner if it would be okay to give those two guys free entry for the next month in order to keep them buying beer and allow you guys to have the tourney. Maybe the guys will like playing and keep coming. If he is concerned about the table time just split the quarters for the games instead of asking for free table time.

I now read the other posts and see my advice is useless as you have already tried it.

 

[dnixon]

don't give up.move to a new bar/poolroom good luck to you

 

[Rackemep]

Here is a solution. Ask the owner if it would be okay to give those two guys free entry for the next month in order to keep them buying beer and allow you guys to have the tourney. Maybe the guys will like playing and keep coming. If he is concerned about the table time just split the quarters for the games instead of asking for free table time.

I did offer to pay the two guys entry's ...They refuse to play BCA rules "chickenshit pool" as they call it...The owner seems to think the only way it makes sense to keep the tournament there and give up both tables is if we charge a $10 entry an $5 of that go's to the house (the players will never go for that)...

The solution is to find another place with tables that will let us run a tourney...The problem is there are 6 places in town with tables...B.J.'s has one table <--- not tournament friendly....The bowling alley has two tables but wont let us have a tourney....The Tack Shed has two tables but wont let us run a tourney....Sportsmans Club has three tables but they need new felt, subrails, and rubber plus a good mechanic to set them up <----dropped a line there to see if we can have a tourney....Timeout Tavern has 6 tables but the owner refuses to do any maintenance on them <--- the local pool population refuses to go in there (tables havent had any maintaining done since the late 90's)....if he would redo the tables it would be the best/only place for pool players in town!!!....and the only other place was the little bar that I was running the tourney in....

Edit:...there is one more place in town at the DanBar Steak house (2 tables, wont let us have a tourney)

 

[CreeDo]

I can see their thinking to be honest.
With just 2 tables, and only 50c a pop they just don't take pool as a serious source of income.
Drunks are their primary source of income and it wouldn't shock me if 2 drunks can spend as much
as a dozen guys who are there more for pool thank for drinking.

And even if they don't, you lose a lot of goodwill kicking paying customers off a table.
I wouldn't be happy if someone booted me off.

Those guys might be regulars and pissing them off might cost the bar a lot of cash.
They probably see the drunks as guaranteed money who will come back for years to come,
and the tournament crowd as johnny-come-lately types who might dry up and disappear at any moment.

I think if you have the time an energy to run a tournament, do it in a place that wants
and needs the business. Screw "bar rescue", go be a pool hall rescuer and bring some life
to the dead nights at a local pool hall. At least they have more than 2 tables
so it's unlikely your whole tournament grinds to a halt as soon as 2 guys want to shoot for fun.

 

[Rackemep]

I can see their thinking to be honest.
With just 2 tables, and only 50c a pop they just don't take pool as a serious source of income.
Drunks are their primary source of income and it wouldn't shock me if 2 drunks can spend as much
as a dozen guys who are there more for pool thank for drinking.

And even if they don't, you lose a lot of goodwill kicking paying customers off a table.
I wouldn't be happy if someone booted me off.

Those guys might be regulars and pissing them off might cost the bar a lot of cash.
They probably see the drunks as guaranteed money who will come back for years to come,
and the tournament crowd as johnny-come-lately types who might dry up and disappear at any moment.

I think if you have the time an energy to run a tournament, do it in a place that wants
and needs the business. Screw "bar rescue", go be a pool hall rescuer and bring some life
to the dead nights at a local pool hall. At least they have more than 2 tables
so it's unlikely your whole tournament grinds to a halt as soon as 2 guys want to shoot for fun.

There is no pool hall here...

 

[fastone371]

Unreal. I would start out by making sure I never spent another penny in that first place that would not accommodate you. All the barkeep has to do was let those 2 drunks that a tournament was going to be starting shortly and that they were more than welcome to sign up for it but it was going to require the use of both tables. The barkeep is obviously an idiot, chasing away a double digit group of people in favor of 2. We were doing the same thing at a bar near us. Barkeep was pretty accommodating, we turned what was normally a dead week nite with 2 or 3 people to at least 8 or up to 16 people for the tournament. Not only did the pool players show up and spend money on drinks, food, and pool, but other people would stop by for a drink to see how it was going that nite.

 

[Kaydon]

I did offer to pay the two guys entry's ...They refuse to play BCA rules "chickenshit pool" as they call it...The owner seems to think the only way it makes sense to keep the tournament there and give up both tables is if we charge a $10 entry an $5 of that go's to the house (the players will never go for that)...

The solution is to find another place with tables that will let us run a tourney...The problem is there are 6 places in town with tables...B.J.'s has one table <--- not tournament friendly....The bowling alley has two tables but wont let us have a tourney....The Tack Shed has two tables but wont let us run a tourney....Sportsmans Club has three tables but they need new felt, subrails, and rubber plus a good mechanic to set them up <----dropped a line there to see if we can have a tourney....Timeout Tavern has 6 tables but the owner refuses to do any maintenance on them <--- the local pool population refuses to go in there (tables havent had any maintaining done since the late 90's)....if he would redo the tables it would be the best/only place for pool players in town!!!....and the only other place was the little bar that I was running the tourney in....

Edit:...there is one more place in town at the DanBar Steak house (2 tables, wont let us have a tourney)

Sounds to me as if you might want to consider opening a small place of your own. Of course I do not know the market in Kingman, but I would bet that someone you know in that area has the capability to help you get something started.
Pool is not as alive in my area as it used to be, but there are places in my area "even being out in the sticks" that support the game. Heck every tournament I play in is always more than 100% payback as most of the places that have tournaments add money to the pot. We split quarters at $1.00 a game and I am sure they recoup what they add for the tournament right there.
Like I said earlier though I know very little about your particular area or your personal situation. IE: As to whether or not you would even be interested in having your own pool room/bar and grill, etc,but in an area with almost 30,000 people I would assume that it could support a place like this and do very well. I know if I lived there and there was no place to play, it would not be long and there would be. Tables pay for themselves and it does not take long, but there has to be a reason they/people stay longer than an hour, and that is where the atmosphere of the place comes into play. What you offer for food, drinks, server's, etc all come into play, but considering I started my place many years ago in a town of 7500 and made it, I would consider doing it again. Especially in a town like Kingman with no pool rooms at all.
Heck if you decide it is not something you want to do let me know... I might just have to come out and do a little research. Kind of tired of living where it snows anyway and am just about ready to retire to a warmer climate.

 

[Rackemep]

Sounds to me as if you might want to consider opening a small place of your own. Of course I do not know the market in Kingman, but I would bet that someone you know in that area has the capability to help you get something started.
Pool is not as alive in my area as it used to be, but there are places in my area "even being out in the sticks" that support the game. Heck every tournament I play in is always more than 100% payback as most of the places that have tournaments add money to the pot. We split quarters at $1.00 a game and I am sure they recoup what they add for the tournament right there.
Like I said earlier though I know very little about your particular area or your personal situation. IE: As to whether or not you would even be interested in having your own pool room/bar and grill, etc,but in an area with almost 30,000 people I would assume that it could support a place like this and do very well. I know if I lived there and there was no place to play, it would not be long and there would be. Tables pay for themselves and it does not take long, but there has to be a reason they/people stay longer than an hour, and that is where the atmosphere of the place comes into play. What you offer for food, drinks, server's, etc all come into play, but considering I started my place many years ago in a town of 7500 and made it, I would consider doing it again. Especially in a town like Kingman with no pool rooms at all.
Heck if you decide it is not something you want to do let me know... I might just have to come out and do a little research. Kind of tired of living where it snows anyway and am just about ready to retire to a warmer climate.

If I had the cash to get started I would love to make a go of a bar&grill with a handful of pool tables (6-10 bar boxes) ...I'm sure it would fly! Its all just a pipe dream for me though....you should come take a look at kingman! Please! I'm begging!

 

[BRussell]

A couple of random thoughts:

- I’ve heard other bar owners complain about losing table money by opening them up. Yes, it is stupid to worry about a few lost quarters. But just to placate the feeling of loss they apparently get, people might consider offering to pay greens fees to the bar, say, a dollar per table per hour. It’s probably going to take a couple of drunks a good hour to finish a single game of 8-ball anyway.

- I play on a league team where no one drinks when they play (well, except for me). They buy cokes. But one bar owner I know said he likes the fact that his place is filled up with pool players on league night, even if half of them don’t drink. There are 8 - 10 people per table on each of 6 tables, which is 50+ people more than he’d normally get on a Wed. night. That matters, because it attracts other people when the place is busy rather than dead.

Best of luck to you.

 

[alstl]

I did offer to pay the two guys entry's ...They refuse to play BCA rules "chickenshit pool" as they call it...The owner seems to think the only way it makes sense to keep the tournament there and give up both tables is if we charge a $10 entry an $5 of that go's to the house (the players will never go for that)...

The solution is to find another place with tables that will let us run a tourney...The problem is there are 6 places in town with tables...B.J.'s has one table <--- not tournament friendly....The bowling alley has two tables but wont let us have a tourney....The Tack Shed has two tables but wont let us run a tourney....Sportsmans Club has three tables but they need new felt, subrails, and rubber plus a good mechanic to set them up <----dropped a line there to see if we can have a tourney....Timeout Tavern has 6 tables but the owner refuses to do any maintenance on them <--- the local pool population refuses to go in there (tables havent had any maintaining done since the late 90's)....if he would redo the tables it would be the best/only place for pool players in town!!!....and the only other place was the little bar that I was running the tourney in....

Edit:...there is one more place in town at the DanBar Steak house (2 tables, wont let us have a tourney)

Maybe if you talked your players into playing at one of the places where the tables need cloth/rails and the owner saw how much they were spending the owner would see the benefit of fixing the tables. I doubt he would fix the tables on the promise of potential profits.

Was there ever any trouble in your tournaments? People arguing or wanting to fight?

 

[BigDeal52]

I did offer to pay the two guys entry's ...They refuse to play BCA rules "chickenshit pool" as they call it...The owner seems to think the only way it makes sense to keep the tournament there and give up both tables is if we charge a $10 entry an $5 of that go's to the house (the players will never go for that)...

The solution is to find another place with tables that will let us run a tourney...The problem is there are 6 places in town with tables...B.J.'s has one table <--- not tournament friendly....The bowling alley has two tables but wont let us have a tourney....The Tack Shed has two tables but wont let us run a tourney....Sportsmans Club has three tables but they need new felt, subrails, and rubber plus a good mechanic to set them up <----dropped a line there to see if we can have a tourney....Timeout Tavern has 6 tables but the owner refuses to do any maintenance on them <--- the local pool population refuses to go in there (tables havent had any maintaining done since the late 90's)....if he would redo the tables it would be the best/only place for pool players in town!!!....and the only other place was the little bar that I was running the tourney in....

Edit:...there is one more place in town at the DanBar Steak house (2 tables, wont let us have a tourney)

Too bad about Timeout Taverns. I looked at some of the bars in Kingman on the Web. Timeout looked like a decent looking place (from the pictures I saw). With 6 tables he would be set up real nice for a tournament. It surprises me he would use up that much space for pool tables and not want to spend a little bit to put new cloth on them.

 

[Rackemep]

Maybe if you talked your players into playing at one of the places where the tables need cloth/rails and the owner saw how much they were spending the owner would see the benefit of fixing the tables. I doubt he would fix the tables on the promise of potential profits.

Was there ever any trouble in your tournaments? People arguing or wanting to fight?

No fights, No trouble it always ran smooth...The only hick-up we ever had was we had a guy named Roy and a guy named Ray and I accidentally called Ray to play Roys game...nothing major I just called a rematch and put the right people in :embarrassed2:

 

[Rackemep]

Too bad about Timeout Taverns. I looked at some of the bars in Kingman on the Web. Timeout looked like a decent looking place (from the pictures I saw). With 6 tables he would be set up real nice for a tournament. It surprises me he would use up that much space for pool tables and not want to spend a little bit to put new cloth on them.

I'll go in and take some pics of timeout...the owners attitude there is that he will just keep the tables the way they are until they are unplayable and then he'll just get rid of them and extend the dance floor...to anyone that actually enjoys the game and has a clue of how a table should play they are long past unplayable...hell the cloth is so thin I swear its transparent in places...

Everyone around here is telling me that Timeout is a waste of time and that they have been trying to get him to fix it for years...It seems like the owner is content to have his few regular drinking buddies to hang out with and he and his wife sit at the bar and drink with them all day...as long as he's making enough to cover the bills and drink for free is all that seem to matter to him....

 

[8ballEinstein]

This whole situation is brutal beyond compare. Kingman once had a thriving bar league and plenty of players. Being a pool player in town now must be a total bummer. Is there an Elk's or Moose Lodge with tables? Heck, if that's not happening you might have to check on the local Boy's and Girl's Club.

Best of luck reviving the pool scene in lovely (?) Kingman.

 

[Rackemep]

Well I think I have a deal with the bowling alley to run a tournament there! I have to rally the players up and make sure they are receptive to the Idea of paying a green fee...

The deal that the bowling alley offered up is they won't open the tables for warm up but they will open them up for the tournament itself if each player pay's a $2 green fee to the house...I have to have a minimum of 8 players in order to have both tables. I had to beg the manager to let us do it. She said she would think about it (she did not seem receptive at all in person) and she called me tonight and told me that she'd give it a go!

Excited to be back to running a tournament...I'm going to keep pushing forward and maybe others in my area will jump on board and we can create a decent pool scene here in kingman!!!!