The true cost of hustling

Real pool players play 7 days a week.

To ask them to spend $30 each day = $210 a week - or $840 per month.

To maintain this type of spending they would have to get jobs and full-time jobs don't leave the player much time to play pool. Plus they become everything they hate.

On the other hand - the league banger is usually playing one night a week so blowing off $30 per week is no big deal.

THIS is how the player is seeing it and I fully understand that it's a serious burden to the room-owner but perhaps.... just maybe there's a common ground, you can work together and everyone can be happy.

I would suggest to anyone ( over the age of 18 ) that can't burn at least $840 a month in discretionary funds to look for a better job OR to consider changing fields.

I can watch a guy hit 3 balls and decide if he's worth a try. Not to brag, but I'm able to compete with 95 percent of players in a room , so its hard to matchup bad. Back when I played at a much lower level I took my losses as paying my dues.

Last superbilliards I put a pile of quarters on the rail and played anybody for 12hrs a day. I broke even with a young guy from Europe who came to play here for 3 months. Literally played anyone who I didn't know was a worldbeaters or real shortstop. Ultimately I went broke with guys I could beat. Out 1800, playing 100 to 400 a set. I won maybe 40 percent of the sets.: I was outta there in 40 hrs!

The year before I faired better. Made 2400. Played some real tough players. Its bar box pool so its not always under your cintrol, you learn to roll with it.

Real competition makes real players.

I don't gamble to eat. You gotta play for something IMO to bring out the best games of your opponent and yourself.

Love the post, Love the heart. The way it's supposed to be.

It's amazing how many people on here like to match up with the worst of it. I need
to start hanging out where they play. I've been hanging out in pool rooms for a
long time and that story about the poor innocent guy losing his hard earned
money to a hustler, who was sandbagging ( that word was for golf or bowling or
something, in pool it was called stalling or on the lemon) is just a urban legend
Everyone in the WORLD has heard that story, seen it on sitcoms, movies a
million times. People that have never even been in a pool room tell that same
stupid story of how the hustler lets the guy win and never makes a ball until all
of a sudden instead of playing for a cheese burger and coke they are betting a
thousand and then turns it on and leaves the poor innocent guy completely broke.
The poor fellow has never bet a quarter but that greasy haired,hustler with his
cigarette stained fingers ruined his life. I'm sure all of these wonderful people on
here that want the worst of it, or at the very very least a even match are just as
happy whether they win or lose as long as it was a good and fair match. And if
they happen to win, either don't take the money or keep adjusting the game until
they lose or at the very worst break even.
jack

Love this post too, and SO true. I've thought this forever - bunch of hypocrites on here and would love to see how it goes down in the real world.You are right though, it's amazing how many people want to match up with the worst of it or doesn't really wanna win but yet they match up lol???
 
Actual paragraphs anyone ? Please break down your thoughts into sentences and a paragraph or 3 when delivering your much appreciated input and thoughts.

Makes for much easier reading and communication. An no, not trying to be an no azzhole.

Carry on,

-Kat,
 
Real pool players play 7 days a week.

To ask them to spend $30 each day = $210 a week - or $840 per month.

To maintain this type of spending they would have to get jobs and full-time jobs don't leave the player much time to play pool. Plus they become everything they hate.

On the other hand - the league banger is usually playing one night a week so blowing off $30 per week is no big deal.

THIS is how the player is seeing it and I fully understand that it's a serious burden to the room-owner but perhaps.... just maybe there's a common ground, you can work together and everyone can be happy.

People have a choice.

Get a full time job and play pool secondary or play pool full time and work secondary so you can feed yourself.

I see players doing all kinds of things so they can live/chase their dream. Work in a pool hall, give lessons, run or assist in a league or tournament, barter for table time, gamble, sleep on rotating friends couches or spare rooms.

What is this common ground you speak of ?
 
This is not going to be about the morality or lack of it, of hustling. Instead I want to talk about the cost, in economic terms, for pool halls, the industry and us players. I'm not talking about real players challenging other real players to money games. I'm talking about hustlers here.

I'll start off by saying that where I live, there are no true, professional hustlers. We have maybe 2 people I know of, that could be deserving of the term, so I'll use them as examples. They're both in their 50's and male. Both are former champions, but now play at maybe an A minus level. They never practice, only come in for a game of pool and cards, and never buy anything. They don't even pay for time and they use every trick to try to save the few measly bucks their time would have been. They're the cheapest people I know. And before you start in about "tough times", they both have decent jobs. They're sore losers and cheat too, almost bad enough to take away the pure joy of beating their brains in on the table, which are very rare opportunities indeed and never for any decent money. They don't take risks with people who actually know how to hold the cue..

Around here the junior players are protected by everyone,and we all try to teach them as much as possible. Anyone going after them would be kicked out. They represent our club, and we want them to do as well as they possibly can. So the hustler targets the new enthusiast, the adult guy/girl that suddenly got bitten by the pool bug and is now spending endless hours at the pool hall, buying the cues on display, buying lessons, playing in tournaments etc.. True they overestimate their game, and have more gear than brains, but they are pumping a lot of money into the pool economy, and bringing friends with them. The hustler rarely tries to go after the active, strong players. They are known, and can't win either, except maybe at cards. Plus we all know their tricks for cheating at ring games etc..

What happens to the enthusiast after a few humiliating losses to the hustler? Well usually they go away, for a long while. We would certainly not see them in our hall again. The most strong willed ones may spend a lot of time at home getting better but most quit the game...some forever. I recently met a guy like that, 10 years after he got fleeced by a scumbag. He had finally gotten over it and had taken up the game again. 10 years of potential, solid pool hall revenue lost. Not just for him, but for the friends/girls he would have brought in to impress, maybe they'd even gotten bitten by the bug themselves. This guy lost tons of money (well maybe not in absolute terms, but enough to be painful for sure), the fact that he even came back after that, shows just how hooked he was on the game.And did the hustler spend any of that money in the pool hall, you may ask? Maybe 2%, and that's being generous!

So..What's the point of telling all of you this? Well maybe you haven't thought about it this way before? There are certainly ethical questions that is being raised by hustling, but the true cost is the loss of money and recruitment to the game. Is the player going to think highly of the people who stood by or maybe even helped the hustler fleece them, when they were still naive about the pool world? Is he ever coming back to that poolhall? The hustlers I described are pure parasites in the pool economy. They bring nothing in, all they do is take. As a poolhall owner or employee, think about these things. Maybe being a "knocker" isn't that bad after all?
So you do make a point, it is the new players thats going to spend money helping the pool industry. But how is it a hustle if one of those old players you mentioned went up to a newbie and challenged them to a money game?
 
This had been gone over SOOOO many times and there will never be an agreement on some of the key parts. But how about this for some food for thought - In business a good, smart business man ALWAYS tries to have leverage. Amongst many other things a part of " leverage " is not showing all of your cards till you absolutely have to. This is also considered an art, much like many attribute to the pool " hustler ". These same principles are in play in so so many different facets of our everyday life, often going unnoticed. Someone in the business world who successfully navigates using these principles is considered a " financial genius ". Good, honest, hard working , Christians are falling all over themselves trying to " get in ", invest, looking for advice, etc. These people include Police, Fire, school teachers, mechanics, farmers along with any other deemed " respectable trade. These successful business men are given awards, put on covers of magazines , asked to give speeches to college students and so on. The difference as I see it is two things : the scale of the money in play, and the vehicle used.It's a capitalist endeavor.Now if you want to say your one of those people that do not believe in capitalism and truly are of the socialist or communist persuasion just say so, but don't be a hypocrite that's all.

Quite possibly one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in some time. Leverage (as you call it) is different than lying. Someone that can't see that difference, likely is beyond help... What's your position on Bernie Madoff? Was he just misunderstood? Kevin Trudeau, misunderstood too? Don't lump honest hardworking people with integrity in the same category with con men.

I'm no where near a hypocrite. I wouldn't condone dishonest behavior regardless of venue - pool hall, business, church, politics.

Two worst types of people in the world, liars and thieves. "Hustlers" seem to be both.
 
Quite possibly one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in some time. Leverage (as you call it) is different than lying. Someone that can't see that difference, likely is beyond help... What's your position on Bernie Madoff? Was he just misunderstood? Kevin Trudeau, misunderstood too? Don't lump honest hardworking people with integrity in the same category with con men.

I'm no where near a hypocrite. I wouldn't condone dishonest behavior regardless of venue - pool hall, business, church, politics.

Two worst types of people in the world, liars and thieves. "Hustlers" seem to be both.

Possibly, but that's probably because it's over your head. I will give you an example of what I mean. When Walt Disney decided on where he wanted to build WALT Disney World the huge tract of lots needed were owned by many different owners. He set up a bunch of different companies to buy the lots one or two at a time as not to clue people in a major project was in the works - because Individually these lots were not worth a lot of money but if it were known all of them were needed the price would have sky rocketed ( which it did for the last few once word was out ). So was this approach dishonest or smart? I equate this to someone not playing to their full potential until they need to. Definitely not the same as Bernie Madoff who WAS an outright thief, or the guy who steals your ball when you're not looking.
 
The average non-pool players that I've spoken with ALL consider a pool hall a dangerous place to ones' health and wealth. I do my best to comfort them but the image of the hustler/gambler/fighter/cheater as being typical of what they'll encounter at any pool hall usually overrides my image. But this is one area where each of us CAN make a difference...with some, not all.

Kinda hard to attract new business from that pool of potential customers.


Jeff Livingston
 
The average non-pool players that I've spoken with ALL consider a pool hall a dangerous place to ones' health and wealth. I do my best to comfort them but the image of the hustler/gambler/fighter/cheater as being typical of what they'll encounter at any pool hall usually overrides my image. But this is one area where each of us CAN make a difference...with some, not all.

Kinda hard to attract new business from that pool of potential customers.


Jeff Livingston

THIS CAN be true but it is also the same things that draw people to it like outlaw country in the 70's. They don't wanna live there but they sure like to visit lol
 
THIS CAN be true but it is also the same things that draw people to it like outlaw country in the 70's. They don't wanna live there but they sure like to visit lol

Well. Orange is the new Black makes prison attractive, too.

A business wants quality, repeat customers. If they have those, they can "fire" all the ones who don't add to the bottom line.

My point is, THE PUBLIC, who everyone seems to want to draw towards this sport, IS AFRAID OF POOL.For specific reasons. One of these is the fear of being hustled. Fear is one of the greatest motivators. Movie/TV don't help, of course, either.

Does hustling make potential customers afraid of becoming customers? How about for kids? How about for kids' parents when asked if they can go to the hall?



Jeff Livingston
 
The art of a true pool hustler is to have the players ask them to play for money. I was a low level ($5-$20 a game) player for over 60 years. I always worked full time or had a business. Most months pool would bring in more than half of the job. Most D to B players have no idea how to match up. Most think they're a ball or two better than they are. When these people lose, they scream they were hustled, when they really hustled themselves. Johnnyt
 
The art of a true pool hustler is to have the players ask them to play for money. I was a low level ($5-$20 a game) player for over 60 years. I always worked full time or had a business. Most months pool would bring in more than half of the job. Most D to B players have no idea how to match up. Most think they're a ball or two better than they are. When these people lose, they scream they were hustled, when they really hustled themselves. Johnnyt
To me, it's really not hustling if they ask you to play. Last week after league ended, two guys wanted to play for money. So we moved to my home bar. After 4-5 games of 8-ball at $10 each, then playing a hour or so of 3-ball, then ending with a single 9-ball game, I ended-up, up ~$100. I didn't lose a single $10 game, and I only lost three 3-ball games.

It always amazes me that when people don't see you run out on any of your 3 league games (although I did win all 3), they then assume that they can beat you. It was funny when one player was complaining that he scratched on the break, and then I ran out -- like that was something "unusual".
 
There is some definite confusion between "hustling", as discussed by the OP and "gambling".

We probably all agree that we would love to see two "A" players battle it our for a 1000 a set, w/o question.

We probably all would love to see a "C" player, play an ""A" player with the proper weight and make a game of it. If the C player want to play even and knows he is outmatched, then its on him.

But anyone who says they love to see an A player lay down his skill and take out someone who would NOT gamble with him otherwise, and consider this anywhere near the honest line, is a thief in their own heart. No two ways about it... I bet the same person would scream bloody murder is someone was dishonest and screwed them.

JV
 
So you do make a point, it is the new players thats going to spend money helping the pool industry. But how is it a hustle if one of those old players you mentioned went up to a newbie and challenged them to a money game?

Well, it's not actually a hustle to play for money in- and of itself. It isn't even a hustle to make a bad game, where the opponent has no chance, so long as everything is on the up- and up.

It becomes a hustle when they stall, lay down or whatever you call it when they play below their speed on purpose to give the illusion that the "mark" has a chance or have their accomplices give the mark false information or otherwise influence the game in a convoluted but calculated way.

It becomes a con or even theft when they cheat, shark or otherwise try to win the game through means other than playing normally.

And it becomes a problem when they've done this enough to give the pool hall a bad reputation and scare away present- and future customers.
 
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Hustling is dead.

Died years ago.
When you hustle anyone you owe them something.
A good time.
They have to have fun.
The skill needed is just that.
You know that you will have a blast.
They have at the end of the session look you in the face and make you know you are welcome.
You know? That is the hustle.
Anyone can drag off something dead so to speak like a vulutre.
Everyone hates vultures.
Hustlers were usually well likable.
That and broke,
Nick :)
The old saying is get a job.
 
Quite possibly one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in some time. Leverage (as you call it) is different than lying. Someone that can't see that difference, likely is beyond help... What's your position on Bernie Madoff? Was he just misunderstood? Kevin Trudeau, misunderstood too? Don't lump honest hardworking people with integrity in the same category with con men.

I'm no where near a hypocrite. I wouldn't condone dishonest behavior regardless of venue - pool hall, business, church, politics.

Two worst types of people in the world, liars and thieves. "Hustlers" seem to be both.

You live in a world of make believe.

Look at the scams and BS those in the federal government pull on us all every day. People are sheep mostly...which is why Hillary is gonna get the chance to run this country into the ground.

Some guy hiding his speed in a pool hall is of no consequence.
 
I see the same railbirds at the Horse and Greyhound tracks betting every race and usually have the favorite going home broke 9 out of 10 times for the last 30 years. The track hustled them. LOL. The guy that never checks the odds bets sports with another that does check the odds and other things. He got hustled. LOL. If your betting are gambling your money you need to do your homework and be ready to lose a % of the time. Never saw so many cry babies in my life. Johnnyt
 
You live in a world of make believe.

Look at the scams and BS those in the federal government pull on us all every day. People are sheep mostly...which is why Hillary is gonna get the chance to run this country into the ground.

Some guy hiding his speed in a pool hall is of no consequence.

Except in the world of pool. But it is always good to have a "goto" rationalization for dishonesty.
 
I see the same railbirds at the Horse and Greyhound tracks betting every race and usually have the favorite going home broke 9 out of 10 times for the last 30 years. The track hustled them. LOL. The guy that never checks the odds bets sports with another that does check the odds and other things. He got hustled. LOL. If your betting are gambling your money you need to do your homework and be ready to lose a % of the time. Never saw so many cry babies in my life. Johnnyt

Funny, thing, I never saw so many people justifying stealing in MY life.
 
Funny, thing, I never saw so many people justifying stealing in MY life.



Your inability to grasp this concept is ponderous. 1 more time for you, "you can't hustle a man that is not greedy or possessing a larcenous heart", period.

Your inability or resistance to grasp this simple fact leads me to believe the reason you're so passionately incensed is that at some point in time in your life your larcenous heart led you into getting trapped, without the vision to see you were the sucker. Life's tough, it's tougher when you're stupid.
 
Now I see why pool is losing out. There is no hope for it with the present bunch of so called players.
 
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