The U.S. Pro Pool Tour

Love this Thread!

Long time Reader, but do not post much. So take it for what it is worth.

This is what has been on my mind for a while. The IPT shot for the heavens right away, and just couldn't keep up. I am sure there is a lot more to it than just this.

Starting with 8 to 16 events with the expectations to grow is a good start. Pick out the Major Cities where pool is legendary for the big games. Maybe even pick the cities where there is a lot of League play so you know there will be interest for spectators right off the bat, and will also be able to get volunteers to work the events.

I really like the idea of the AzBer's putting in some money to help the start of this tour. I think this will also given incentive to prospective investors. Showing we are willing to put up our own money to make it work would go a long way. What about getting with some of the sports stars with a plan like this and ask to see if they can come up with half and we come up with the other half. What about sports people like Joe Rogan, Tony Stewart and also a lot of the poker professionals who love the game. I would be willing to through in a dollar or two to help.

I think the big will be keeping our ego's out of the way, and reminding ourselves this is for the betterment of the game.

I really believe that a professional pool tour could not only help the players and the game, but definitely help the kids coming up that love the game.

Just some thoughts. Thanks for a great thread once again Jay.
 
I am reminded of the time Charlie Williams carded Keith McCready at a pro tournament to show proof of his residency.

I would love to see the U.S. Pro Pool Tour be based on American pros. I know I am in the minority with this opinion, though I do know of a few American pro players who feel the exact same way and have expressed their discontent in this regard.

I did read on the AzBilliards Main Page about the CSI developing different player ranking categories for the BCA league system, which is kind of an interesting concept.



regarding "I would love to see the U.S. Pro Pool Tour be based on American pros." As a pool fan I would have little if any interest in watching a tournament with only American players. And I am a U.S citizen born here.
 
Jay, I think you have a great idea, and your dollar investment is right on target....

My thoughts to success:

10 month season, 2 tournies a month, in major metropolitan areas......this way you have 20 events, with 2 weeks between each one for travel time.....

Pick major areas and try to host each month's events in the same state, and each 3 month segment should be in a certain region, again to help with travel.....ie, 2 tournaments in Florida, 2 in the next month in North Carolina, and then 2 in New York.....then swap over to central with INdianapolis and so on....

Run the season February through November, and I'd try to run tournies in the south for better travel during the winter months.....ie, Florida in February and maybe LA in November as the championship....this also leaves the Mosconi cup and DCC outside of the schedule and they can stand alone.....

Payout is a big key as well......something like $25k for first, $16k for second, $12k for third, $9k for fourth, $6k 5th and 6th, $4k 7th and 8th, $2k for 9-16, and then $1k for 17-32......you pay 1/4 of a 128 player field.....anyway, you get the idea.....1/4 of the field sees REAL money and at worst, pays for most expenses.....finishing in the top 8 and you see a nice payday......I'd charge like $300 entry, which is very reasonable for those payouts....

Got a ton more ideas, but won't bore you with them....Jay, methinks you have a great idea, would love to see it happen.....if I hit a massive lottery, you got my $2mil :grin:
 
Jay, I hope it happens and works.

In case you find the money... :wink: you should consider the structure of the carom pro tour. It ensures that the top 16 ranked players or so will be at every tour stop and that none of them will lose money on any event. The top prize is not near $50,000 but in the current state of sponsorship it is enough to get the players. Under the format, anyone can enter any event for about $140 -- the prizes are not funded by entries. I think the format could work for pool as well. Here is the official description of it.

The real key is TV, whether broadcast or streamed, and you must get a few million viewers. The result of a large audience is commercial sponsorship, and I don't mean by cloth cleaners, racks, jump sticks, or even table makers. A requirement is a presentation that will attract viewers. This is the most important part of the plan.
 
regarding "I would love to see the U.S. Pro Pool Tour be based on American pros." As a pool fan I would have little if any interest in watching a tournament with only American players. And I am a U.S citizen born here.

That is cool, and I understand. Everybody has their preferences, likes and dislikes. That's what makes the world go 'round, as they say! :)

I do enjoy a little color in pool, but this, of course, brings up the age-old argument of the pool purists versus those who enjoy emotion in pool.

My favorite country, aside from the States, for pool is the Republic of Philippines. Those players play with emotion and color, and that, I do enjoy. :cool:
 
If I had 2 million, the last thing I would do, would be to hand it to an ex pool hustler and gambler. RJR did that, and Mackey took off with the money, and left the players stiffed, even the huge money he won in court, he kept and did not share.

Let that one, be a lesson for the future. The mafia learned that same lesson the hard way, when they let hustlers with street criminal mentality run their casions. They screwed them up like Hogas goat and they got smart and hired professional managers.

The tours in the past failed, because pool hustlers and gamblers could not run a successful dog fight. They only run it for their own gain and they set the rules to insure a couple of their pals at the top has the edge.

To set up a tour, you have to put in, real professional business people, managers. Before you get the money funded. Any one even with a past history of gambling or hustling, I would not let near it. You can hire people to run a tour that are not even from the pool world, as in golf, that would come in with integrity and honest and honor, to pass on.

Who was running the IPT, a fraud, a con, a convicted felon and criminal.

And when he ran out of money, what did he try to do, sell the tour to the Chinese gambling mafia, and only our governement at the last minute blocked that. If that went through, all our pros would be living and working in Hong Kong today.

That is our model, all we have done. That model, we need to lose, the hustlers, the gamblers, the shady promoters who are just nothing but carneys with good teeth. :grin:

Comparing Jay with Mackey is a little out of line. Jay has promoted events and has shown honesty and always saw that the players were paid. But I do agree for a tour to work it will need to be headed up by some business based fans of the game who are willing to do for the love of the game. This is how a lot of organizations get their start with some fans who can afford to do just donating their time and efforts. But one of the biggest hurdles to conrend with is the players themselves. Over the years they have shown little loyalty to the good promoters by presenting themselves in an honorable fashion at the events. Think of how many times you've seen a match forfeited or lost because a player was out gambling or partying all night.
 
In the UK, where professional snooker is in better shape than pool in America, many of the several of the major tournaments are sponsored by the bookies.

Funding also comes from the BBC. Brits have to pay an annual license fee on their TV to finance 'Mother'.

The Championship League is strictly a web event, doesn't even have a live audience.

Premier League is a traveling event.

Both are round robin.
Both pay for each frame won, bonus for centuries.
Players don't go away empty handed.

Based on this preamble, I suggest:
Seek government funding for heritage preservation.
Get Ken Burns to do a supporting video.
Sell Fatboy's house to a Chinese with the connections to get it on Chinese TV. And hold the tournament in the house as a way to justify the price of Vegas real estate.
Offer betting offshore, say, Macao, for an additional revenue stream.
Allow stakehorses to own a percentage of a player, if a player wishes to sell, and allow the stakehorse to set a claiming price on that percentage, bringing liquidity to the market.

Excuse me, I have to get back to the Championship League.
The evening session is about to start.
 
It would be great to be able to get 2 million for a tour. The problem would be sustaining the tour for the future and not be an IPT or Camel. Nice when they were there but wasn't going to last for the long run.

The problem with a rich benefactor is that most business people that have that kind of funds won't throw the money down the drain. Especially in this economy. It has to be a good business decision. It's just against their nature to invest money into a losing proposition. I don't think pool should be a charity case either.

I would be in support of anything that promotes the game. I still contend that the most realistic chance for a pro pool tour is creating an organized front with the players and then creating a points system based on preexisting successful tournaments. Such as DCC, SBE, BCAPL, Turning Stone, CSI events, US Open, etc.

Use the golf or tennis model and try to get sponsorship for one tournament at a time. The Brunswick Open, Cue tech Classic, or APA Invitational has a nice ring. The industry must be involved. It's in their best interest. If the Billiard Industry doesn't care then how is outside sponsorship going to care?

As the tour gets organized and grows, then marketing can be pointed towards gaining outside sponsorship, one tournament at a time. You have to have a good business plan/model before legitimate business will invest. Show them a successful tour and instead of the Denny's pro bowlers tour maybe it can be the Denny's pro pool tour.
 
I would be willing to invest a little, too. Maybe you should sell stock.

I bet there are enough enthusiasts with a little bit of cash on hand to raise a significant sum of money, especially if there is a possible return in the future. Maybe not 2 mil, but enough for a starting point. You just gotta figure out a way to organize it.

I thought the same thing when I read Jay's idea. 2MM is would not even cause a ripple in the pond that is world capital markets. Incorporate, get some pro formas, some prospectus and start this thing up! Hell, I may just buy myself enough ownership to be on the board myself...
 
Long time Reader, but do not post much. So take it for what it is worth.

This is what has been on my mind for a while. The IPT shot for the heavens right away, and just couldn't keep up. I am sure there is a lot more to it than just this.

Starting with 8 to 16 events with the expectations to grow is a good start. Pick out the Major Cities where pool is legendary for the big games. Maybe even pick the cities where there is a lot of League play so you know there will be interest for spectators right off the bat, and will also be able to get volunteers to work the events.

I really like the idea of the AzBer's putting in some money to help the start of this tour. I think this will also given incentive to prospective investors. Showing we are willing to put up our own money to make it work would go a long way. What about getting with some of the sports stars with a plan like this and ask to see if they can come up with half and we come up with the other half. What about sports people like Joe Rogan, Tony Stewart and also a lot of the poker professionals who love the game. I would be willing to through in a dollar or two to help.

I think the big will be keeping our ego's out of the way, and reminding ourselves this is for the betterment of the game.

I really believe that a professional pool tour could not only help the players and the game, but definitely help the kids coming up that love the game.

Just some thoughts. Thanks for a great thread once again Jay.


There have been a lot of dubious assumptions in this thread but we finally have a winner for clearly the silliest notion of all time.

That AZbers are going to support a pro tour. So let's take that reported 20,000 plus AZber number. In recent history accustats and TAR have put on some of the most premier pool matches of all time. How many buys did they get from those 20,000 plus AZbers: we're talking $20 to say $40 buys. Less than 1 percent. So i think it's safe to toss this one from your bag of ideas for saving pool.
 
the previously mentioned neutral party that may be needed to handle and dole out the money.... well, ill volunteer.

honestly though, the way this works is rich guys who love pool gives money, or people chip in and buy "stock" for their share of the future profits. its actually a GREAT test, because if people (ie you guys!!) really believe in the game, this should be easy money to raise.
 
What a ray of sunshine some people are. Why they even hang on a pool forum is beyond me, unless it brings them closer to their desires, non-pool-related desires.

Jay's vision is a good one. It can be accomplished with the right team of people leveraging a strategy, but it has to be a collective effort.

Unfortunately, today pool *can* be bought. I mean where else can you watch a competition between a Mike Tyson-type player against shortstop. It's like watching Mike Tyson in the ring with his hands tied behind his back trying to win. It's comical, if you think about it. A guy who can't four balls in a row can buy their way into the spotlight if they want the attention bad enough in the pool world.

A professional team of business people could make Jay's business plan work. It truly is not that far out of the field of reality, IMO. An example would be Jeanette Lee. She hired a professional company to promote her and get her name out there. It worked. She is known in the pool world. When she attended the Turning Stone for the Joss event a few years ago, the people came to the tournament room to see her play. "Jeanette Lee" is a brand name.

Pool needs to be branded. With the right people behind pool, it could change for the better.
 
What a ray of sunshine some people are. Why they even hang on a pool forum is beyond me, unless it brings them closer to their desires, non-pool-related desires.

Jay's vision is a good one. It can be accomplished with the right team of people leveraging a strategy, but it has to be a collective effort.

Unfortunately, today pool *can* be bought. I mean where else can you watch a competition between a Mike Tyson-type player against shortstop. It's like watching Mike Tyson in the ring with his hands tied behind his back trying to win. It's comical, if you think about it. A guy who can't four balls in a row can buy their way into the spotlight if they want the attention bad enough in the pool world.

A professional team of business people could make Jay's business plan work. It truly is not that far out of the field of reality, IMO. An example would be Jeanette Lee. She hired a professional company to promote her and get her name out there. It worked. She is known in the pool world. When she attended the Turning Stone for the Joss event a few years ago, the people came to the tournament room to see her play. "Jeanette Lee" is a brand name.

Pool needs to be branded. With the right people behind pool, it could change for the better.

Why people on here continually blow smoke is beyond me when they have nothing more substancial to back up there claims than "IMO."

It's counterproductive to the goal. Vision is easy. The hard cold details of a business plan is what is needed. Getting 2 million from someone without being able to tell them specifically how and when they'll get their money just as starters is not a business plan. It's counterproductive.

No one has answered the first question (apart from IMO) in solving the problem. Is There A Demand For A Pro Tour? No one has made that case yet.

In the startup to midsize business world the first thing to happen when something isn't working is to start over or concentrate on just one thing that will focus the product for the customer. Mostly it's contraction to the point where money can be made or where there is proven success.

The only proven success i see are leagues, Big events like the BCA in Las Vegas, DCC and a couple other things. You need to look harder at what is working rather than what you and your friends would like it to be.
 
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regarding "I would love to see the U.S. Pro Pool Tour be based on American pros." As a pool fan I would have little if any interest in watching a tournament with only American players. And I am a U.S citizen born here.

on the subject of american only or not, I'm not convinced on either part. but im not sure how many will take it when someone from outside of the US wins it more often than not and the money that went into the tour from the US is now being taken out of the US. thats a whole new can of worms of course.
the tables shift a little when sponsors are both foreign and domestic, but some may still be kinda salty about it...
 
Why people on here continually blow smoke is beyond me when they have nothing more substancial to back up there claims than "IMO."

It's counterproductive to the goal. Vision is easy. The hard cold details of a business plan is what is needed. Getting 2 million from someone without being able to tell them specifically how and when they'll get their money just as starters is not a business plan. It's counterproductive.

No one has answered the first question (apart from IMO) in solving the problem. Is There A Demand For A Pro Tour? No one has made that case yet.

In the startup to midsize business world the first thing to happen when something isn't working is to start over or concentrate on just one thing that will focus the product for the customer. Mostly it's contraction to the point where money can be made or where there is proven success.

The only proven success i see are leagues, Big events like the BCA in Las Vegas, DCC and a couple other things. You need to look harder at what is working rather than what you and your friends would like it to be.

I am not sure why you quoted my post.

"IMO" means "in my opinion." What you have written is in your opinion. To discredit other opinions just because they may not agree with yours is not the key to success.

I do agree that today, the leagues and regional tours is what's carrying pool in the United States. It is *not* out of the realm of possibility for professional pool to become a money-making venture for all involved. It cannot happen immediately, though.

First, the goal(s) must be ascertained, reasonable goals. Then key strategic initiatives need to be developed to reach those goals. The stakeholders need to know how they will benefit. Even if it is a long-term revenue increase, it can be presented in such a way that it will be a win-win for all involved.

A professional tour needs information assets to give it a direction. Having a pool player be the public affairs executive ain't going to work. The biggest problem today with some pool events is that sometimes nobody finds out about them until after the fact, and many times, to find out the results of tournaments is like pulling teeth.

Once the information assets are feeding the business functions of the professional tour, an integration platform can be established. The platform needs to be unified and transparent. Keeping the stakeholders informed is important. With the right people in place, it really can work, but most people want immediate gratification. No business starts out in the black.
 
I am reminded of the time Charlie Williams carded Keith McCready at a pro tournament to show proof of his residency.

I would love to see the U.S. Pro Pool Tour be based on American pros. I know I am in the minority with this opinion, though I do know of a few American pro players who feel the exact same way and have expressed their discontent in this regard.

I did read on the AzBilliards Main Page about the CSI developing different player ranking categories for the BCA league system, which is kind of an interesting concept.

Is this because the Americans can't beat anyone from overseas. Or is it something else. Seems a little sexist.
 
What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

The pool bums with no immediate future want some sugar daddy to come along and save them. Give me a job, support me, save me. I say, wake up, your profession pays you squat, peanuts, find a real job and quit dreaming and begging.

Go drive a truck, Go back to school like Steve Lillis did, get an education, and find a new way to make a living.

I hear now: Give me 2 million dollars and I’ll give you a tour. Oh please, give me a break. Just drop a dime and call up Gates or Turner. We already hooked on Billionaire, he sank millions into his lost cause, and could not sell it to TV or make money on that, others will see that. These bums, will run it the same way all the other ones did, and the end result will also be the same, failure.

You already said, it won’t make money the first two years. So I am going to shell out 4 million dollars over 2 years just to support you pool bums and not make a dime off it. Why? I will invest that money in my company and expand it. I am not stupid, we all know this can’t make money or ever have any ROI, and the guys who will run it will steal me blind like Mackey. That is their model, what they do.

They con pool rooms into putting on pro events, they lose 25K, they say, well next year will be better, it takes time to build these up, next year then again lose another 25K and they never host another one. That is the core problem. None of these promoters, who are carneys with good teeth, could care less about any one making any money other than them. They could not organize and put on a successful circle jerk with a tribe of monkeys.

Once a hustler, always a hustler. Once a stree rat, always a street rat. Once a hooker, always a ho.

The fact that nobody in the industry will fund this, means, they know these bums cannot be organized and led into any successful operation. All then have done since 1966 on their tours, is screw up and go broke and fight with each other and sub divide the game into smaller groups. Why should they change, now? Lone wolves, hustlers, are tigers that never change their stripes.

And a bunch of guys on a chat fourm are going to fund a new tour? Send you money to:
A pool player, a road warrior, a card player, a stake horse, a gambler, a pool room owner
You will never see any tour and your money goes into this guy’s retirement fund. I can’t wait for this con to launch and get underway. That could even be better than the $90 aim DVD that should have sold for $12.

How many sent money to Crane? All the do is woof in the wind and run their mouths.

I am not comparing Jay to Mackey, I am comparing all of them to Mackey. What are most of these promoters really like, carneys with good teeth? What has happened on at least 3 tournaments, recently, they stole the money, never paid the players, or dragged out payments, they were nothing but thieves.

The PBT, the IPA and the UPA all did this to the players. The owner of the US open went to prison for selling drugs and has stiffed many pros on payments, some never got paid. It’s the biggest disgrace I have ever seen and it keeps getting worse.

If I am going to run a tournament in a pool hall, pay out 25K to 75 suckers, who are going to be mostly roadies druggies pool bums and hustlers, they Jay’s my man to do that.
On his web site he describes him self as:

Jay Helfert is and has been successful as a pool player, a road warrior, a card player, a stake horse, a gambler, a pool room owner

It takes one, to run these guys.
But to run a multi million dollar tour, I am saying the last guy you want running it is:

A pool player, a road warrior, a card player, a stake horse, a gambler, a pool room owner

Give a pool hustler 2 million, he will steal half of it and run it into the ground within a year, I have seen them do this, many times before, that is what hustlers and gamblers do, steal your money.

You hire professional managers, skilled people, and an honest professional accountant. You want honest businessmen, people of honor and integrity, and you don’t find that in the pool world very often.

The first mistake this guy is making is under funding the project, the mistake 90% of any new business does, which is why most of them go under, in 1 to 2 years; they just can’t turn the corner and run out of money.

2 million, hell that would just be my payroll. First, I would use very few of the current pros, only the young and good looking ones. The 300 lb Kid Delicious, Earl who can’t keep his mouth shut, or Efren who has no teeth, would not be on my tour. Nor would the over 40 Lee’s and Allisons, plus they would be too high priced. I would start over, find better looking young models and make them into new stars. And, there would be no Monica Webbs who dress and act like men. None of the above fit the new image I would be selling. I would basically start over, find, train and put out 24 matinee idols, handsome guys chicks will dig on TV, and their mothers as well, that will sell, who will be trained in how to talk, act, and impress corporate possible future sponsors and I’ll train them to play close to pro levels.

The women’s tour when it began on TV, most including Lee, played at about an APA 6 level, and since they all played at the same level, nobody could really tell that, or cared since they were chicks. It took those years to get 4 or 5 now playing at men’s speed. A new tour of men could go the same route. Our current systems only advances our players out of pool halls and bars, and those coming to the top are hustlers and gamblers, the kind I can’t sell to corporate America. So I would just stop using them.

It would be like a baseball team, I hire them, they are on my payroll, and they follow my directions. The top 10 I pay a flat salary of 100K, so every week the pro makes $1,923 and he can now support a family. the 2nd 10, 50K, the last 4 are there on their own nickel until they can out play and displace a top 20 player, then they move up into his slot, and the paid guy, is let go. This keeps the top 20 practicing and getting better, and like in baseball if they don’t, they get sent down and a new rookie moves up. You only need a tour of 30, no more. In time, that number could increase.

They all dress in the same colors and outfits, like pro golfers, neat, clean, no tattoos, long hair, beards, and ear rings. Each one has to be the ideal boy next door image every mom wants her daughter to marry. I would enforce strict conduct rules, and if one of them pulled an Earl and went ape on the floor, I would fire him. Every player has to pee in a bottle, once a week, to insure they are drug free.

I would also carry a ladies division, 6 hotties, all smoking, dressed in tight clothes, but nothing vulgar. Nobody over 25, I would pay them 50K each.

I would use advanced marketing techniques to make brand new stars, everyone would admire.

Once the tour, and the cities establish teams, those salaries could be increased but there would be caps to insure it does not run away like it did on other sports teams.

I, me Pancho, as the new Pool boss gets 200K, plus a 50K Xmas bonus, I tell you, give it to me, or I’ll just steal it from you Holmes. Figure in my staff, the TD, and I am already over 2 mil. Because everything I would do, would be first class.

Also, I have found, put 6 pool players in a room and they will argue all day long, we should use blue or green chalk, these people can’t agree on anything. I would not have this big board I would be ass kissing to who would drive me nuts and kill the entire thing off. The only way this can work, is I would have to be sole dictator, nothing less than Adolph Hitler, my rule would not be questioned by the players. In fighting, arguing, takes all of these tours apart.

Prize money, the winner in every big monthly event, will play for one million. That then has a chance to get us on TV like Poker, for the same reason. I hand the winner in private, a fake million dollar bill, just to keep it legal. There is no prize money really played for, same in baseball, in my tour, it’s all an illusion, and you can’t tell me Poker is not cheating big time on these moneys as well. Look at Wrestling, it is phony as a 3 dollar bill and nobody cares. Poker, it’s a million in chips, nobody said that was one million usd. Ok, I know, the world championship where a thousand guys buy in for 10K is for real, I have played in it.

Hopkins tried to copy that, none of our broke bums have 10K to pony up.

Now I have to pay the travel expenses of 30 moving them around the country, and real fast, you are up to 4 or 5 million needed to pull this off. And to save money, it has to evolve into each city having their own team based there, and like baseball, they all visit each other now and then, and each city, has a weekly tournament, just like Golf does where fans come by and buy admission to see the matches.

Each city has its own small arena, stands around the tables, a full time coach teaches the pros in daily work sessions on wed-thur, the weekly tourney runs Fri-sat-sun and the players have off Mon-tue and the area is then wide open for the locals to rent tables, or have league matches there. Local players can come by for lessons, and rent the tables when they are not in use. It could become the center in that city for pool, with a full pro shop, the works. They get the gate and this thing has to get on TV and also be sold via live steam set ups and pay for view.

So give Pancho 5 million, and I’ll give you a tour, that will smoke, and have the potential, to pay off with mega bucks when it expands into teams in all the major cities. And of course my half mil, is guaranteed in case you pull the plug early, my golden parachute is paid for in advance in my bank. Pancho never work for Gringos on the come.

To close, give 2 mil to the hustlers and gamblers, they will only steal and blow it. If you can’t get somebody to fund this thing right, hire the right people to pull it off, then it’s not a good investment.
Some any of you zillionaires out there, who likes pool, dude, you give old Pancho a call and we will get this bad boy humpin right away. And dude, 5 mil, to you, this is chump change, you can write that small amount off on your taxes.

Pancho can show you now, how you can buy the entire pool world, for 10 cents on the dollar. Everyone is now for sale, cheap. Now is the time to buy in, at the bottom, where pool is on its ass, then bring it out and make it happen, part of my plan is to produce a new color of money type film, movie, centered around the tour, making it so glamorous, then pool takes off into another expansion and we clean up.

:grin-square:
 
Is this because the Americans can't beat anyone from overseas. Or is it something else. Seems a little sexist.

Uh, I happen to think that American pool players can beat anyone on the face of the earth and vice versa.

If you're looking for a thread two-step, my dance card is reserved for topics that can generate a positive result.

"Sexist" is probably a bad choice of words. I don't prefer men over women in pool or women over men in pool.

I knew if I responded to your post, it would like tickling a trout. :grin-square:
 
Beer my friend. Think Beer. I Nick B will only drink the following product _______. Get a petition of 30K of sigs and drop that on a Marketing Managers desk.

I bet walmart could sposnor the tour!:grin-square:
 
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