The Use Of Pivoting When Aiming.

Logic says that if you can find the line that's exactly a pivot from the aim line, then you've already found the aim line and don't need the pivot -
pj
chgo

You are correct! To my knowledge your assertion is perhaps the most astute comment that you have ever offered concerning real CTE.

There are layers of CTE. In one layer of CTE a pivot is involved. But here is what is important. One's vision takes the player's bridge V to a perfect location based on CTE perception VIA a sighting technique. The offset tip away from CCB is more about learning to see perceptions without the visual competition of the tip at CCB.

At the highest level of CTE, there is no manual pivot. It is basically SEE and ALIGN based on the same bridge V as is used in manual pivoting.

Stan Shuffett
 
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Good question. I was initially talking about the manual pivots such as pivoting around the bridge either with the back hand controlling the cue or a full twist of the hips to change the cues direction. But you mentioned some other kind of pivots that I find equally ridiculous. I find major faults with all of them then can potentially ruin a person's game.

For beginners or those who aren't very developed, probably so.


Back hand fixed pivot - how do you place your vision centre? Pre pivot or post pivot? To pivot the back hand you should pivot the vision centre to keep it locked in on an accurate cue ball position. For example, I have my cue aimed at the left edge of the cue ball with my vision centre over the shaft and I pivot to centre cue ball but my vision centre remains over the left edge of the cue ball. How can I be sure I'm at centre cue ball when my vision centre is not aligned over the shot?if you get down with the vision centre over ccb and the tip at the left edge for example... I don't need to pivot... As my vision centre is spread on the correct line of aim so all I have to do is point my tip through centre cue ball. Not only this, but your back arm is not aligned straight along the shot. You end up with a chicken wing or slightly side arm. Bad for technique.

The body pivot - slightly better as the vision centre stays over the cue and so does the arm and elbow but it throws balance out of the window and each shot feels different because you are not consistent with your bodies balance. It also makes shots you are stretching for, especially on 12ft tables difficult to pivot the entire body. It screws with alignment.

The mid stroke pivot - lol... Just lol. How the hell can anyone judge how much they are pivoting mid stroke especially on hard shots.

Guess you'll have to ask Efren and Bustamante since they do it all the time. You wouldn't be LOL after losing a ton of money to them, would you?

The visual pivot - a pointless pivot....it isn't really a pivot in my eyes. Its basically your eyes selecting a line of aim that isn't right and moving that line of aim until you stumble upon a correct line of aim based on memory. Basically trial and error pivot is what it should be called. It is not repeatable.

The air pivot - very similar to the above. Systems with this in their description or requirement are basically systems that get your vision centre into a position that makes it easier to find the line of aim and let the subconscious go to work. The cue for a right hander always comes from left to right. Unless you stand with the shoulders very side on. So how does someone pivot the cue anti clockwise as a right hander? Do you start with the butt on the correct line of aim and pivot around the butt? That would be very noticeable indeed and I've never seen a right handed start with the tip past the right shoulder and pivot the cue in. Imo it is something to distract you from aiming consciously and a gimmick to let the subconscious take over.

So many questions but so few answers because you don't know what there is to know.

I guess you overlooked my first post to you so here it is again:

Starting out as you did with a Snooker background, I can understand where you're coming from. It's the way it's taught, how you learned it, and the way your brain and eyes are trained to work.

Everything is simple steps, in and out, very controlled, and in unison.

It reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUplaATIBjQ

Nobody really deviates much from anything since the beginning of when Snooker was created and players started getting good at it. Everybody looks like a clone of each other at the table.

Pool is not snooker. It's an evolution and continues to evolve in the way it's played through open minds and creativity.

You'll never see a Snooker player doing things on the table like Bustamante or Efren. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGw8EVrWQ_E

They're pivoting all over the place, most of the time in mid stroke.

Pivoting is more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9XuJJXylw

Whether there's a non-pivot or a pivot...THEY BOTH WORK IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

 
So many questions but so few answers because you don't know what there is to know.

I guess you overlooked my first post to you so here it is again:

Starting out as you did with a Snooker background, I can understand where you're coming from. It's the way it's taught, how you learned it, and the way your brain and eyes are trained to work.

Everything is simple steps, in and out, very controlled, and in unison.

It reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUplaATIBjQ

Nobody really deviates much from anything since the beginning of when Snooker was created and players started getting good at it. Everybody looks like a clone of each other at the table.

Pool is not snooker. It's an evolution and continues to evolve in the way it's played through open minds and creativity.

You'll never see a Snooker player doing things on the table like Bustamante or Efren. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGw8EVrWQ_E

They're pivoting all over the place, most of the time in mid stroke.

Pivoting is more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9XuJJXylw

Whether there's a non-pivot or a pivot...THEY BOTH WORK IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

There is a reason no one deviates far from it. Because it is effective and works. Given the size of the tables and how tight the professional players pockets are cut they have to follow strict guidelines in order to be as accurate as possible. The entire snooker set up is based purely around hitting the white as accurate as possible.. Why would you hint towards it being a bad thing?

Pool instruction is going the way of snooker instruction. Instructors are realising the benefits of mixing the two disciplines together. Chin on the cue, vertical forearm, open bridge. These are snooker techniques and are fast becoming the norm in pool... Because they work. You will get the odd instructor who teaches whacky techniques like pivoting, but why do we not see it in snooker? Because whilst you might get away with it on 4" pockets with pointed jaws, you will look like a fool on a tv snooker table.
Pool is evolving, granted. But the guys who make it to the top of the game are looking more and more like snooker players. Give it 30 years and the entire field of pool professionals will look weirdly like snooker professionals... Its evolving for the better.

On a final note... Im sure Efren or Busty would rob my money on a pool table. They've been playing the game all their lives. They're top class players too... Im an amateur. But could those two top class pros take money from a top class amateur snooker player on a tv snooker table? No. I'd leave with a full wallet. Its rather dumb to ask the question you did. Its like saying Mike Tyson would kick my ass... Obviously he would. But I'd beat him in a" talking without a lisp" contest.
 
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There is a reason no one deviates far from it. Because it is effective and works. Given the size of the tables and how tight the professional players pockets are cut they have to follow strict guidelines in order to be as accurate as possible. The entire snooker set up is based purely around hitting the white as accurate as possible.. Why would you hint towards it being a bad thing?

Pool instruction is going the way of snooker instruction. Instructors are realising the benefits of mixing the two disciplines together. Chin on the cue, vertical forearm, open bridge. These are snooker techniques and are fast becoming the norm in pool... Because they work. You will get the odd instructor who teaches whacky techniques like pivoting, but why do we not see it in snooker? Because whilst you might get away with it on 4" pockets with pointed jaws, you will look like a fool on a tv snooker table.
Pool is evolving, granted. But the guys who make it to the top of the game are looking more and more like snooker players. Give it 30 years and the entire field of pool professionals will look weirdly like snooker professionals... Its evolving for the better.

On a final note... Im sure Efren or Busty would rob my money on a pool table. They've been playing the game all their lives. They're top class players too... Im an amateur. But could those two top class pros take money from a top class amateur snooker player on a tv snooker table? No. I'd leave with a full wallet. Its rather dumb to ask the question you did. Its like saying Mike Tyson would kick my ass... Obviously he would. But I'd beat him in a" talking without a lisp" contest.
I once asked Efren why he didn't go to England to play snooker b/c they make so much more money. This was after he played "golf" on the Big Bertha table at Hard Times here.
He flat out said , " we have no shot there."
Efren played English billiards in his younger days too.
 
So what's the pivot for?

pj
chgo

The pivot is foundational for comprehensive system understanding. The prepivot alignment allows for optimal sighting when learning the system and is also extremely important for visual adjustments with some applications of spin.

The prepivot alignment is perfect training for how to cross one's vision with their cue for the highest application of CTE. In other words, the pivoting aspect of CTE teaches one how to properly engage a special but very narrow range of their vision when in final cueing alignment.

In CTE, there are 2 foundational alignments that stem from one's normally aspired typical alignment that occurs during PPA verses the one target shooting set-up for conventional methods that takes place in final aim.

Bottom line: CTE teaches in layers what was once totally inexplicable.

Stan Shuffett
 
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There is a reason no one deviates far from it. Because it is effective and works. Given the size of the tables and how tight the professional players pockets are cut they have to follow strict guidelines in order to be as accurate as possible. The entire snooker set up is based purely around hitting the white as accurate as possible.. Why would you hint towards it being a bad thing?

Pool instruction is going the way of snooker instruction. Instructors are realising the benefits of mixing the two disciplines together. Chin on the cue, vertical forearm, open bridge. These are snooker techniques and are fast becoming the norm in pool... Because they work. You will get the odd instructor who teaches whacky techniques like pivoting, but why do we not see it in snooker? Because whilst you might get away with it on 4" pockets with pointed jaws, you will look like a fool on a tv snooker table.
Pool is evolving, granted. But the guys who make it to the top of the game are looking more and more like snooker players. Give it 30 years and the entire field of pool professionals will look weirdly like snooker professionals... Its evolving for the better.

On a final note... Im sure Efren or Busty would rob my money on a pool table. They've been playing the game all their lives. They're top class players too... Im an amateur. But could those two top class pros take money from a top class amateur snooker player on a tv snooker table? No. I'd leave with a full wallet. Its rather dumb to ask the question you did. Its like saying Mike Tyson would kick my ass... Obviously he would. But I'd beat him in a" talking without a lisp" contest.

-----:thumbup2:------------
 
There is a reason no one deviates far from it. Because it is effective and works. Given the size of the tables and how tight the professional players pockets are cut they have to follow strict guidelines in order to be as accurate as possible. The entire snooker set up is based purely around hitting the white as accurate as possible.. Why would you hint towards it being a bad thing?

You got the wrong impression. I didn't, not at all. I think the way Snooker is taught and played is the way to go. Pool runs the CB all over the table especially with rotation games.

Pool instruction is going the way of snooker instruction. Instructors are realising the benefits of mixing the two disciplines together. Chin on the cue, vertical forearm, open bridge. These are snooker techniques and are fast becoming the norm in pool... Because they work.

I don't agree with that very much. Lets look at the stance itself. American players aren't getting into an absolutely square forward facing stance like Snooker players. Most still use closed bridges and chins aren't on the cue except for young thin limber backs.


You will get the odd instructor who teaches whacky techniques like pivoting,

Odd instructor? LMAO! You are aware that backhand English is a way of putting English on the ball with a slight pivot and most POOL players do it. Everything isn't parallel with all of the calculations for deflection and other factors.
Btw, CTE PRO1 does NOT use a pivot.



but why do we not see it in snooker? Because whilst you might get away with it on 4" pockets with pointed jaws, you will look like a fool on a tv snooker table.

Here you are comparing apples to oranges again. Just because both games use a cue and balls doesn't make them the same. Pockets are different sizes, tables are different sizes, cues are different weights and have different tip sizes, the balls are different sizes and weights, and the strategy or rules of the games aren't the same.

Pool is evolving, granted. But the guys who make it to the top of the game are looking more and more like snooker players. Give it 30 years and the entire field of pool professionals will look weirdly like snooker professionals... Its evolving for the better.

That's your guess and take on it. Lets see what happens just over the next 10 years. Snooker will still be snooker and pool will still be pool the way it's been played since over 100 years ago. Although soccer and American football are both played on large fields and called "football" they aren't close to being the same.
There has been one carry over from soccer to American football and it's the KICKING part for kickoffs, field goals, and extra points. THAT'S IT.
Rubgy and American football aren't learning or copying from each other and they're somewhat similar.


On a final note... Im sure Efren or Busty would rob my money on a pool table. They've been playing the game all their lives. They're top class players too... Im an amateur. But could those two top class pros take money from a top class amateur snooker player on a tv snooker table? No. I'd leave with a full wallet.

Other than a couple of excellent snooker players who have transitioned into pool and done great as well, how many of the thousands of snooker players could come to the states to play pool and whip up on the top pro players. I'd walk away with a full wallet.

Its rather dumb to ask the question you did. Its like saying Mike Tyson would kick my ass... Obviously he would. But I'd beat him in a" talking without a lisp" contest.

And he'd still end up kicking your ass and pounding you into the ground like a jackhammer for making fun of him and his lisp. You lose either way.
 
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Logic says that if you can find the line that's exactly a pivot from the aim line, then you've already found the aim line and don't need the pivot

You are correct! To my knowledge your assertion is perhaps the most astute comment that you have ever offered concerning real CTE.

So what's the pivot for?

The pivot is foundational for comprehensive system understanding. The prepivot alignment allows for optimal sighting when learning the system and is also extremely important for visual adjustments with some applications of spin.

The prepivot alignment is perfect training for how to cross one's vision with their cue for the highest application of CTE. In other words, the pivoting aspect of CTE teaches one how to properly engage a special but very narrow range of their vision when in final cueing alignment.

In CTE, there are 2 foundational alignments that stem from one's normally aspired typical alignment that occurs during PPA verses the one target shooting set-up for conventional methods that takes place in final aim.

Bottom line: CTE teaches in layers what was once totally inexplicable.

Stan Shuffett
:confused:

Is that Esperanto?

pj
chgo
 
Not offering an opinion to the subject of the thread.

Pidge, I'm very surprised that you would post such an obviously inflammatory thread.

There are several other posters here that do a fine job of that day after day.

I've always found your posts to be on point, and helpful. This one is simply a poke in the eye.

Did you think it would end with a, "You know something, that's pretty astute. Thanks for helping me see the light"?
 
Pidge, I'm very surprised that you would post such an obviously inflammatory thread.

It's only inflammatory to those that use a pivot to aim and can't explain why.

Apart from the obvious advantages of the pivot used with BHE (Back Hand English), that is. The use of a pivot in that case is easily explained. Not so with the 'aiming' pivot.

By the way, whatever happened to the verbiage, "1/2 tip pivot to CCB which connects you with the geometry of the table"?? I thought that was the secret sauce, and the source of all mystery?
 
It's only inflammatory to those that use a pivot to aim and can't explain why. snip snip snip

I beg to differ. These discussions ALWAYS devolve into mudslinging and ridiculous back and forth and offer no benefit to anyone (save for the professional arguer crowd).

Topic has been beat to death, and only serves to contribute to the general state of rancor that seems to thrive on the internet.

>.02, but it's mine.
 
It's only inflammatory to those that use a pivot to aim and can't explain why.

Apart from the obvious advantages of the pivot used with BHE (Back Hand English), that is. The use of a pivot in that case is easily explained. Not so with the 'aiming' pivot.

By the way, whatever happened to the verbiage, "1/2 tip pivot to CCB which connects you with the geometry of the table"?? I thought that was the secret sauce, and the source of all mystery?

How can one pivot 1/2 tip on the air ? :confused:
 
It's only inflammatory to those that use a pivot to aim and can't explain why.

Apart from the obvious advantages of the pivot used with BHE (Back Hand English), that is. The use of a pivot in that case is easily explained. Not so with the 'aiming' pivot.

By the way, whatever happened to the verbiage, "1/2 tip pivot to CCB which connects you with the geometry of the table"?? I thought that was the secret sauce, and the source of all mystery?

Hi Sam,

Where Ya Bin?
 
It's only inflammatory to those that use a pivot to aim and can't explain why.

Not true Sam. It's also inflammatory to those who use a pivot to aim and can explain why. It's also inflammatory to those who don't use a pivot to aim or apply BHE because they just don't know what there is to know so they make inflammatory posts/threads because they usually walk around with inflamed butt holes on a daily basis to begin with.

Apart from the obvious advantages of the pivot using a pivot with BHE (Back Hand English), that is. The use of a pivot in that case is easily explained. Not so with the 'aiming' pivot.

Not true again Sam. There are those who think there are NO advantages for using a pivot for BHE and only use parallel. There are other aiming pivots outside of MANUAL CTE and they can be illustrated, taught, learned, used, and easily explained while at the table. Not so much in written words by keyboard on a forum, in an email, or a love letter.
 
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