Does anyone know any top instructors in CT? i think Mr Robles is in Long Island, not sure if he gives lessons anymore, thanks, Mick
The Wilson Compromise
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
DrCue'sProtege said:
Although I don't believe there is one exact stance for everyone, it does need to be some kind of balanced tripod, with the weight on both feet and some kind of pressure on the bridge hand. When I work with someone, I want them to 'feel' comfortable, but also to be able to take a slight shove without feeling like they'll fall over. Mark is a great instructor, and I'm sure he is recommending something right for you and your body structure. The most difficult thing to resist is going back to what your body already knows, while you're trying to replace it with something new (and uncomfortable). Learning is about being taken outside your 'comfort zone'! Remember, you've had your old stance for a long time, and it will take longer than a few days of practice to change old habits. It could take weeks, or even months...but eventually the new replaces the old, and it's like you never played any other way. Mark is showing you things that will help take your game to the next level. Don't be too quick or impatient to toss out what you paid good money to find out.
As far as dropping the elbow for a power stroke. First of all most pros do not significantly drop the elbow as a function of the stroke. Those that do, the CB is long gone, and dropping the elbow has no physical effect on the outcome. Look at Mike Massey...he has one of the most powerful strokes in pool, and he doesn't drop his elbow at all! However, this issue will be debated until the cows come home, so to each their own...
Scott Lee
Cheez Dawg said:
Scott Lee travels around the country teaching. You should contact him. He may be coming thru your area.
DCP,
This thread is confusing at best. I believe you mentioned taking lessons from Dr Cue (TR) several times. You've also started a number of threads on cues, shafts, tips, what's important etc. right down the list. Now you've modified your recent instructions from what some say is an excellent instructor. Why?
You mentioned he changed your stance, but you don't admit to knowing why. For one or more reasons I'm sure but you should understand why. Since you don't, I suggest you call him and take advise here with a grain of salt until you do. Now you want to modify his changes to fit your comfort. It's not about comfort unless your handicapped. Once you repeat something for three or four weeks it becomes natural but you have to go the distance.
Is it me or am I the only one that sees you as a confused individual? It seems your searching for a cure all and it isn't out there. I'm not down on you so please don't take me wrong. You need to know what your suppose to do and why. If you don't know why find out. Then establish that as your base line goal. Improvment will follow if you follow directions before you head off in another direction. LOL
Pool isn't rocket science. It's basic form is just a game that requires balance with good alignment and a consistant stroke. As these basic elements improve so does your overall execution and knowledge of the game. Without some sort of consistency people are lost forever. You don't miss because of piviot point, not having the latest gaget; hi tech pool cue, tip or shaft. Use a cue you like and get down to practice, I wish you luck.
Rod
This thread is confusing at best. I believe you mentioned taking lessons from Dr Cue (TR) several times. You've also started a number of threads on cues, shafts, tips, what's important etc. right down the list. Now you've modified your recent instructions from what some say is an excellent instructor. Why?
You mentioned he changed your stance, but you don't admit to knowing why. For one or more reasons I'm sure but you should understand why. Since you don't, I suggest you call him and take advise here with a grain of salt until you do. Now you want to modify his changes to fit your comfort. It's not about comfort unless your handicapped. Once you repeat something for three or four weeks it becomes natural but you have to go the distance.
Is it me or am I the only one that sees you as a confused individual? It seems your searching for a cure all and it isn't out there. I'm not down on you so please don't take me wrong. You need to know what your suppose to do and why. If you don't know why find out. Then establish that as your base line goal. Improvment will follow if you follow directions before you head off in another direction. LOL
Pool isn't rocket science. It's basic form is just a game that requires balance with good alignment and a consistant stroke. As these basic elements improve so does your overall execution and knowledge of the game. Without some sort of consistency people are lost forever. You don't miss because of piviot point, not having the latest gaget; hi tech pool cue, tip or shaft. Use a cue you like and get down to practice, I wish you luck.
Rod
Rodd said:
I agree with everyone here. I took lessons from Mark around Thanksgiving and I played badly for a while and felt very uncomfortable. I'm starting to feel more comfortable now doing the new stroke and am now back to playing at least as good as I was and I think I've started improving already. Do you remember how awkward and uncomfortable you felt when you first picked up a pool cue? How about noticing how awkward and uncomfortable someone is with any kind of stroke when they first start playing. What you think is comfortable now is something that felt uncomfortable as hell when you first started doing it!
ok, here goes.
i think Mark wanted me to change my stance because my arm was too close to my body, and therefore i couldnt swing/stroke freely. that sort of shows up on the video tape he made. he said i was "all boogered up" when i came to him, and he wanted me to open up by turning my hips more.
he also wanted my grip hand back further so that it would be more straight up and down, and i could swing the forearm better this way without swinging the entire arm. and thus not "spilling the cup of coffee", if you understand me here.
am i a confused individual?
no, not really, i just want to excel and get better. Mark asked me what my goals are, and i said i doubt if i would ever get to the point where i could beat Earl, but i would like to get to the point where i could give him a good match and not be embarrassed. if i seem confused here with my posts, comments, questions, etc, it often times is simply an effort on my part to elicit ideas/thoughts/routines from some of the finer players that frequent this forum.
yes, i have somewhat modified Mark Wilson's ideas to where they feel more comfortable to me. but, after his lesson with me i am open more now than what i was, am now beginning to focus more on the aim point and working on hitting the cue ball right where i want it, and i am now concentrating more on swinging the forearm, and not the entire arm.
no, i am not following Mark's advice 100%. but it seems likes the bottom line is a repeating straight stroke that strikes the cue ball consistently where you want to strike it. and yes, the instruction/advice i received from Mark has helped to show me how to get that repeating straight stroke, as has the years of instruction from Tom Rossman. hopefully as i put more and more time in, concentrating on doing these things right, my game will improve.
guess time will tell.
DCP
p.s. Tom Rossman never made it down yesterday, 12/26. first time he's not been down on the 26th in 7 years. we had TONS of snow, that probably accounts for it. but, alas, all good things must come to an end.
i think Mark wanted me to change my stance because my arm was too close to my body, and therefore i couldnt swing/stroke freely. that sort of shows up on the video tape he made. he said i was "all boogered up" when i came to him, and he wanted me to open up by turning my hips more.
he also wanted my grip hand back further so that it would be more straight up and down, and i could swing the forearm better this way without swinging the entire arm. and thus not "spilling the cup of coffee", if you understand me here.
am i a confused individual?
no, not really, i just want to excel and get better. Mark asked me what my goals are, and i said i doubt if i would ever get to the point where i could beat Earl, but i would like to get to the point where i could give him a good match and not be embarrassed. if i seem confused here with my posts, comments, questions, etc, it often times is simply an effort on my part to elicit ideas/thoughts/routines from some of the finer players that frequent this forum.
yes, i have somewhat modified Mark Wilson's ideas to where they feel more comfortable to me. but, after his lesson with me i am open more now than what i was, am now beginning to focus more on the aim point and working on hitting the cue ball right where i want it, and i am now concentrating more on swinging the forearm, and not the entire arm.
no, i am not following Mark's advice 100%. but it seems likes the bottom line is a repeating straight stroke that strikes the cue ball consistently where you want to strike it. and yes, the instruction/advice i received from Mark has helped to show me how to get that repeating straight stroke, as has the years of instruction from Tom Rossman. hopefully as i put more and more time in, concentrating on doing these things right, my game will improve.
guess time will tell.
DCP
p.s. Tom Rossman never made it down yesterday, 12/26. first time he's not been down on the 26th in 7 years. we had TONS of snow, that probably accounts for it. but, alas, all good things must come to an end.
Micktmason said:
if you're talking about tony, he gives lessons out of amsterdam billiards in manhattan monday thru thursday. its worth the drive.
thanks
When I started trying to play a little serious pool a few years ago I started reading instructional books and discovered I had been doing many things incorrectly for a long time (I was 54 at the time). The first thing I noticed was my bridge. I had learned to play with an elevated bridge and I took EVERY shot with an elevated bridge. Forcing myself to place the heal of my hand on the cloth when making a bridge was not only uncomfortable but slightly painful (tight tendons I guess). However I forced the change and it improved my game a lot.
Point being ... I'd give doing things Mark's way a chance, when your body tells you something is wrong with discomfort sometimes your body is the one that is wrong.
Good luck.
Point being ... I'd give doing things Mark's way a chance, when your body tells you something is wrong with discomfort sometimes your body is the one that is wrong.
Good luck.
catscradle said:
you summed it up much better than i did
RichardCranium said:
another explaination much better than mine.
tap tap tap
Scott
Scott,
I respect the fact that you're an instructor and that you seem to be held in high regard. I also realize that I am not an instructor so this is more of a question to you rather than a challenge. When I play and drop my elbow on certain shots, I definitely see a difference in how the cb reacts. Also, the thing that really surprises me is sometimes it almost seems like my accuracy is increased a little. I don't understand it and I think I understand what you're saying about the cb being gone before your elbow drops. Any ideas? Why does Rempe, Immonen and other top pros feel that this is an essential part of a good stroke, especially for those shots requiring more power?
Scott,
I respect the fact that you're an instructor and that you seem to be held in high regard. I also realize that I am not an instructor so this is more of a question to you rather than a challenge. When I play and drop my elbow on certain shots, I definitely see a difference in how the cb reacts. Also, the thing that really surprises me is sometimes it almost seems like my accuracy is increased a little. I don't understand it and I think I understand what you're saying about the cb being gone before your elbow drops. Any ideas? Why does Rempe, Immonen and other top pros feel that this is an essential part of a good stroke, especially for those shots requiring more power?
Scott Lee said:
drivermaker
Banned
RichardCranium said:
I agree with you 100% on this, certain facets of the fundamentals cannot be compromised unless the instructor can determine that, not the student.
Maybe there are some differences between teaching pool and golf, I don't know other than the fact that I DO KNOW golf. The question that I have is this insistence on striking the CB EXACTLY on the spot that you want to hit and making IT the focal point. In golf, a player wants to hit the golf ball in the dead center of the face on an iron and actually slightly higher on the face of dead center on a driver. With the best ball strikers on the PGA tour that pure just about every shot, they have a wear mark on the face of their irons and woods from ball contact that's about the size of a dime. It's just incredibly tight and on the mark each time. A less accurate ball striker will have a mark about the size of a nickel and others are about the size of a quarter. With a high handicap golfer, there really is no specific mark that stands out because they're hitting it all over the clubface due to inconsistency and flaws in their swing.
However, you could tell any of them to focus on striking the ball right on a dime sized mark on the club all day long with 1,000 golf balls and it ain't gonna happen. The mark is just a by-product of excellent fundamentals, a good swing, as well as a repeating swing. The perfectly placed mark on a golf club is the EFFECT of a good swing. The good swing is the CAUSE of it.
It seems Mark Wilson is reversing the process in teaching pool but as RichardCranium said, he's not a pool instructor and neither am I.
I just played Mike some straight pool, and it seems he has adopted a rather unorthox stroke for a lot of his shots -- the tip ends well above the cue ball at the end of the shot. I don't remember him doing this when I saw him several years ago.Scott Lee said:
A discusssion of elbow drop or not is in the February and March 2004 issues of Billiards Digest. Tony Robles has a very, very, very different stroke from Nick v/d Berg.
drivermaker said:
This is all speculation since we don't know what Mark was trying to accomplish. From teaching over the years I doubt he is making the c/b spot the focal point. By that I mean he is using it as a reference as you suggested on a golf club face. It you're all over the club face or all over the c/b accuracy and position is hopeless. The idea is make those large misses closer.
From what was written I think we know part of his method in this case was opening up the mans stance. I'm not sure exactly what buggered up means but it could very well have to do with alignment, if alignment was part of the plan then it has been altered. A change in stance "only" to allow a free arm swing doesn't seem likely. You can easily have a free swing without being open. Something is missing and that's why I suggested DCP call Mark for any details he missed or Mark may have left out. In other words, is it necessary to be so open and why?
Maybe Mark has one style of teaching where he rebuilds everyone's swing. I don't know what others do but I try to work within what fundamentals a student has even if some are poor. One thing for sure, if I change grip/hand/wrist/arm position it will get worst before it gets better. Then throwing in a stance change won't help either. From my perspective there might be too much going on at the same time. Sort of like one trip as a cure all instead of several lessons.
In no way do I want this interpreted as a fact, just an observation. It sounds like we will never know. That is the bad part about using a forum for me, I'm not there. I can diagnose and make changes to what I see, not what I hear or can't see.
Rod
I went to Mark. From what I've seen in this thread he made the same type of changes to my stance and it was ALL about alingment...i.e. being completely alinged to make the shot before every getting down on the shot.
My old stance did not allow this TOTAL alingment and the arm being too close to the body made me often stroke from the inside out causing left english to be applied (I'm left handed) when not wanted or intended and also caused very inconsistent shot making which drove me nuts.
Having applied every iota of what Mark recommended through 3 to 6 hours of practice a day for the last 3 weeks since I saw him, has changed my game dramatically. I've never felt the shots so solidly, have never been this accurate and confident in my shot making. Having gained this confidence frees me up to stroke freely and since I don't have to worry about the cb going where I want it to I can focus on shape planning.
I never really understood that ALL the aiming was done while standing. I'd heard it a thousand times. I'd said it a hundred times but I'd never REALLY felt it until after havig applied what Mark showed me. I take more time to aim while standing and when I get down on the shot my new alingment takes care of putting the ball in the hole. If I've seen the line correctly the shot is going in because the new alingment and resulting new and reliable stroke will consistently get the job done. I can rely on it. It's wonderful.
My old stance did not allow this TOTAL alingment and the arm being too close to the body made me often stroke from the inside out causing left english to be applied (I'm left handed) when not wanted or intended and also caused very inconsistent shot making which drove me nuts.
Having applied every iota of what Mark recommended through 3 to 6 hours of practice a day for the last 3 weeks since I saw him, has changed my game dramatically. I've never felt the shots so solidly, have never been this accurate and confident in my shot making. Having gained this confidence frees me up to stroke freely and since I don't have to worry about the cb going where I want it to I can focus on shape planning.
I never really understood that ALL the aiming was done while standing. I'd heard it a thousand times. I'd said it a hundred times but I'd never REALLY felt it until after havig applied what Mark showed me. I take more time to aim while standing and when I get down on the shot my new alingment takes care of putting the ball in the hole. If I've seen the line correctly the shot is going in because the new alingment and resulting new and reliable stroke will consistently get the job done. I can rely on it. It's wonderful.
JimS said:
Ditto Jim. Same thing happened for me (but it took me 2 hours a day for about a year), and the improvement just keeps on coming.
drivermaker
Banned
Bob Jewett said:
That would have been a pleasurable experience for any of us to play Mike. However, I'll bet you told him a thing or two about his shitty form/technique and what a better player he'd be if everything was according to the book. I hope you got him touching the cloth with the tip after you guys were done.
drivermaker said:
Driver, Mark is not reversing it. He is focusing on the more consistant, more repeatable swing to hone in on the spot on the cue ball just like in your golf analogy! Of course, it's important to do the center ball drill so you can see how far off, but by no means is that the sole focus. In his sessions, at least the ones I had, the sole focus is on the stroke and making the best swing possible each and every time.
drivermaker
Banned
Rackin_Zack said:
OK, I wasn't quite getting that out of DCP's explanation and what he seemed to be focusing on.