The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[Paul Schofield]

If you really were a free-thinking experimenter you'd occasionally come up with a dud idea and say
"I tried this but it didn't work too well."

This is post #425 from the thread: "Pool Has A Fatal Flaw"

I did not say that. I said "One player is disengaged. He might as well be selling hot dogs".

I started this thread just to get people to think and throw their thoughts and any ideas they may have out onto the table. I wanted people to make me think too. I don't just talk about stuff. I do stuff. I try things. 99.9% of it doesn't work. That is OK. I will only post something that is proving successful (as in the No Conflict Rules).

I have a few ideas (brought on by this thread) and I am going to try them and see if they are fun and if they are do-able.

Who wants to hear about someone's failures?

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Just email him the 99% so he can critique your free thinking.

Seriously though 1% slop outcome win percentage ? I play bangers. I would think 5-8% is accurate for APA league.

 

[Don Owen]

Marketing and sales

The organized handicap system on a national scale is what makes the APA the juggernaut that it is. You've got a bit of non-sequitur going tying together the rules with the success. That's just not the case.[/QUOTE]

Fred,
A handicap system, no doubt, contributed to the success. However, I believe the major reason APA is successful is their well executed marketing plan, whereby many people make a good living. Pure and simple capitalism.
IMHO,
Don

 

[CreeDo]

Fair enough paul.

If you have to defend how "rarely" slop rules will ruin the outcome of the game, then you've already
proven it's a lousy rule. Because that means at least SOMEtimes, it ruins the outcome.

I've never heard of call-shot ruining the outcome of the game. How could it?
(no crazy bar call-everything examples please. We're talking standard ball-and-pocket calling)

I also never heard anyone say "I decided not to enter this tournament because they play
without slop. I refuse to do play unless there's slop."
...but I've heard people get turned off when they hear slop is allowed.

 

[Cornerman]

Fred,
A handicap system, no doubt, contributed to the success. However, I believe the major reason APA is successful is their well executed marketing plan, whereby many people make a good living. Pure and simple capitalism.
IMHO,
Don

Agreed
...................

 

[(((Satori)))]

Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.

Do you play eightball with fifteen balls and a cueball? Because I cant think of another sport that uses fifteen balls and you should probrably be consistant in referring to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Why do people that want to influence the rules in pool want them to be "unique" ???

Fair enough paul.

If you have to defend how "rarely" slop rules will ruin the outcome of the game, then you've already
proven it's a lousy rule. Because that means at least SOMEtimes, it ruins the outcome.

I've never heard of call-shot ruining the outcome of the game. How could it?
(no crazy bar call-everything examples please. We're talking standard ball-and-pocket calling)

I also never heard anyone say "I decided not to enter this tournament because they play
without slop. I refuse to do play unless there's slop."
...but I've heard people get turned off when they hear slop is allowed.

Those are great points. The best sports all have ONE target, like in basketball there's one target rim, in football there's one goal, in hockey there's one goal/net, in golf there's one hole, and tennis there's one service area and one defined side of the net.

Why do people that want to influence the rules in pool want them to be "unique" in a Negative Way? The rules should clearly be designed to bring out the maximum amount of skill, strategy and showcase talent.....not luck!

When pocket billiards simply follows the model of other sports in marketing, advertising, production and rules it will immediately do MUCH, MUCH, Better and get the respect and recognition that the Game deserves. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Paul Schofield]

Those are great points. The best sports all have ONE target, like in basketball there's one target rim, in football there's one goal, in hockey there's one goal/net, in golf there's one hole, and tennis there's one service area and one defined side of the net.

Why do people that want to influence the rules in pool want them to be "unique" in a Negative Way? The rules should clearly be designed to bring out the maximum amount of skill, strategy and showcase talent.....not luck!

When pocket billiards simply follows the model of other sports in marketing, advertising, production and rules it will immediately do MUCH, MUCH, Better and get the respect and recognition that the Game deserves. 'The Game is the Teacher'

So Hubbart has had it wrong all these years? Our Nine-Ball tournaments are all wrong too? Lead the way. Show us. You are the teacher.

 

[hang-the-9]

So Hubbart has had it wrong all these years? Our Nine-Ball tournaments are all wrong too? Lead the way. Show us. You are the teacher.

From how many tournaments and leagues are going to called shot rules even in 9 ball, yes they have it at least a little bit wrong. For higher level play. A couple of C and D players, it won't matter much as to what happens because in their games, random events are part of the game. At even a C+ level, you'd want your actions and ability to lead to a win, and I'm sure you'd want the same from your opponent.

The USAPL league I play in is all called shot, even when it was 9 ball, and we moved to 10 ball from 9 ball. The Masters division has been 10 ball for a while, but even the regular division is not 10 ball and 8 ball.

The one rule I do wish that was changed a bit that is still common even in called shot is the accidental safety on a missed ball. If you call a shot, miss, and leave the other guy hooked, it should at least be a push out option if not an option to have the other guy shoot again.

 

[Mr. Bond]

With all due respect to Larry, Paul, and any other non-call fans...

IMO playing without called [or intended] shots is no less than horizontal "Plinko" and should be featured on the Price is Right. A monkey with a stick can shoot slop.

But - in your own house - [you should] do what you like - it doesnt bother me a bit.
If people enjoy it - great. If it gets them to play more - super.
Just don't expect me to hail your house champion as the next Mosconi.
Likewise, don't expect the public to think any higher of a game that you can win with your eyes closed.

If you want to get super technical about it, pinball machines were once considered "games of chance" and were banned in many states. They were inherently unfair because the player had no guarantee of being able to "win" (they were going to lose their money) no matter what their skill level was. If you take away the "skill", pool becomes a game of chance - and is inherently unfair because no matter what your skill level, you may still lose.

 

[Cornerman]

With all due respect to Larry, Paul, and any other non-call fans...

IMO playing without called [or intended] shots is no less than horizontal "Plinko" and should be featured on the Price is Right. A monkey with a stick can shoot slop.

But - in your own house - [you should] do what you like - it doesnt bother me a bit.
If people enjoy it - great. If it gets them to play more - super.
Just don't expect me to hail your house champion as the next Mosconi.
Likewise, don't expect the public to think any higher of a game that you can win with your eyes closed.

If you want to get super technical about it, pinball machines were once considered "games of chance" and were banned in many states. They were inherently unfair because the player had no guarantee of being able to "win" (they were going to lose their money) no matter what their skill level was. If you take away the "skill", pool becomes a game of chance - and is inherently unfair because no matter what your skill level, you may still lose.

So does that mean all the world champions won World 8-ball Championships in the pre-call shot era have now a lower stature? I'm not getting it. Actually I feel like one of the few that actually gets it.

 

[Paul Schofield]

So does that mean all the world champions won World 8-ball Championships in the pre-call shot era have now a lower stature? I'm not getting it. Actually I feel like one of the few that actually gets it.

And the Nine-Ball and One-Pocket champions also. And don't forget Snooker and Three Cushion Billiards. Straight-Pool has been experiencing a slow torturous death. It makes me wonder for a minute.

 

[AtLarge]

So does that mean all the world champions won World 8-ball Championships in the pre-call shot era have now a lower stature? I'm not getting it. Actually I feel like one of the few that actually gets it.

And the Nine-Ball and One-Pocket champions also. And don't forget Snooker and Three Cushion Billiards. Straight-Pool has been experiencing a slow torturous death. It makes me wonder for a minute.

I don't recall anyone saying that winning a big event that has slop rules lessens the stature of the champion. Big events have lots of top-notch entrants. One of them will win.

As I have often said in these debates -- some brand of cream will always rise to the top in big events, but with no-slop rules it might be a different brand of cream.

In other words: luck/slop can enable a lesser player to prevail against anyone in a short race. But luck will never enable a significantly lesser player to survive a gauntlet of top players near the end of a large event. Luck/slop, however, can be a key determinant of (1) which top player beats another top player and which top player wins the event and (2) who finishes in which positions (and how much money they win) all the way down the line, not just at the top.

From a competition standpoint, the fundamental purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; an 8-ball slopped in an unintended pocket for a win is disgusting.

I prefer no-slop rules of some sort for all significant pool events.

 

[Mr. Bond]

So does that mean all the world champions won World 8-ball Championships in the pre-call shot era have now a lower stature?

Maybe so.

I get the point that Paul (and Larry) have made. I really do. And on a personal level, I think it's perfectly fine to modify a game anyway you see fit. But, I hope that you guys also get the point that calling shots will rid the game of "winners by accident."

Truth be told, there is no such thing as a "pre-call shot era". Pretty much all of the popular pocket games that we play today began as "call shot" games.
(14.1, 8ball, rotation)

Yes, of course there have been times, and tournaments, and even championships held in which calling the ball/shot was not required. But this was done, just as Paul is suggesting, to make the game(s) easier and perhaps a little faster.

But from the beginning, it has been well recognized and documented that "intent" means everything. Luck is exactly that: Luck.


P.S. On the subject of rotation games such as 9ball, 10ball, 15 ball etc, it should be pointed out that "slop" is not exactly "slop" in the truest sense of the word. The object ball doesnt need to be "called" because the game rules already dictate which ball you must shoot at first. In other words, the "call" is built into the game. Whether or not someone allows any "extra" balls pocketed to count is the only issue in question.

 

[Cornerman]

Truth be told, there is no such thing as a "pre-call shot era". Pretty much all of the popular pocket games that we play today began as "call shot" games.
(14.1, 8ball, rotation).

They did not.

14.1 was born out of Continuous Pocket Billiards (Continuous Pool), which did not have a pocket call as part of the ruleset at its earliest.

8-ball wasn't a call shot game in the BCA rules until 1985. And even then, it was "Optional." I think most people on this thread simple don't acknowledge this for some reason. 1925 is a documented ruleset that doesn't show a call shot. Original 8-ball (black ball, casino rules, whatever...) didn't have numbers on the balls to call.

Rotation ... still isn't a call shot game. It was born out of Fifteen-ball pool which didn't have a call pocket requirement either. It didn't have an object ball requirement either until they made it "rotation."

Snooker... not a call shot game. YOu can absolutely fluke a red in another pocket and still get to continue if Reds were on. There's no specific red that's on, and all pockets are good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHYzyWGQZu4 (look how huge this fluke is)

3C... not a call shot game at all. As long as you use your cueball, either object ball can be hit first without calling. Any pattern of cushions and ball can be hit without nominating

Billiards and Pocket Billiards started in the late 1700's. Most of the games still don't have a call shot requirement. So, yes, there was (and still is) a no-call shot era.



Any more???

 

[AtLarge]

... P.S. On the subject of rotation games such as 9ball, 10ball, 15 ball etc, it should be pointed out that "slop" is not exactly "slop" in the truest sense of the word. The object ball doesnt need to be "called" because the game rules already dictate which ball you must shoot at first. In other words, the "call" is built into the game. Whether or not someone allows any "extra" balls pocketed to count is the only issue in question.

I don't think "extra" balls are the only issue in question. If I'm teeing off on the 14th hole and my dubbed tee shot goes into the hole on the 13th green, I don't get credit for a hole in one on the 14th hole. If I'm playing the 8-ball into the far right corner pocket and it goes off two pocket points into the far left corner pocket ...

 

[sfleinen]

I don't think "extra" balls are the only issue in question. If I'm teeing off on the 14th hole and my dubbed tee shot goes into the hole on the 13th green, I don't get credit for a hole in one on the 14th hole. If I'm playing the 8-ball into the far right corner pocket and it goes off two pocket points into the far left corner pocket ...

Or, if you're bowling on lane 6, and you throw the ball so bad that it crosses over onto the lane next to you -- lane 5 -- and knocks pins down on lane 5, you don't get credit for those pins. You get a "-" on that throw, zero points (which absolutely hurts your final score) and are the laughing stock of the bowling alley.

-Sean

 

[Cornerman]

As I have often said in these debates -- some brand of cream will always rise to the top in big events, but with no-slop rules it might be a different brand of cream.

Luck/slop, however, can be a key determinant of (1) which top player beats another top player and which top player wins the event and (2) who finishes in which positions (and how much money they win) all the way down the line, not just at the top.

I don't see why anyone would still say this when just in 10-ball, we spanned the era of no call to call shot just in the past 5 years. And guess what? The best 10-ball players in the world didn't change. It's still Shane, Dennis, Alex...the usual suspects. Nobody suddenly jumped rank because of lack of fluking balls. Not at the top level per your post.

The proof has always been there. Mike Sigel spanned the era of different games totally from 14.1 call shot to luck everything 9-ball. He never stopped being the best player.

Every top player was the top regardless of rules. Isn't that enough proof that rules aren't going to change a top player vs top player? And to my earlier point, isn't a lucky leave 100 times more likely to change the outcome of one set, tournament position, etc. with top players than a fluked-in ball? Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong on this?

Even in the amateur levels of the APA, the APA 7's are the winners and the APA 2's, not so much. The rules don't change anything there either.

Freddie <~~~ will only point to actual, not theoretical.

 

[YubaCushion]

They did not.

14.1 was born out of Continuous Pocket Billiards (Continuous Pool), which did not have a pocket call as part of the ruleset at its earliest.

8-ball wasn't a call shot game in the BCA rules until 1985. And even then, it was "Optional." I think most people on this thread simple don't acknowledge this for some reason. 1925 is a documented ruleset that doesn't show a call shot. Original 8-ball (black ball, casino rules, whatever...) didn't have numbers on the balls to call.

Rotation ... still isn't a call shot game. It was born out of Fifteen-ball pool which didn't have a call pocket requirement either. It didn't have a object ball requirement either until they made it "rotation."

Snooker... not a call shot game. YOu can absolutely fluke a red in another pocket and still get to continue if Reds were the ball on. There's no specific red that's on, and all pockets are good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHYzyWGQZu4 (look how huge this fluke is)

3C... not a call shot game at all. As long as you use your cueball, either object ball can be hit first without calling. Any pattern of cushions and ball can be hit without nominating




Any more???

I don't think so.
There's an intended pocket and ball in any given shot. Back then when people missed instead of being honorable and giving back the table they thought hey, there's no rule that says I have to make the ball in the pocket I was shooting at. As time went on the people with skill and common sense had enough of this bullshit and added the call rule thank goodness. There didn't use to be street lights either,and look at people behaved at intersections in old footage.

 

[Cornerman]

I don't think so.
There's an intended pocket and ball in any given shot. Back then when people missed instead of being honorable and giving back the table they thought hey, there's no rule that says I have to make the ball in the pocket I was shooting at. As time went on the people with skill and common sense had enough of this bullshit and added the call rule thank goodness. There didn't use to be street lights either,and look at people behaved at intersections in old footage.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Did you ever watch a tournament with no-call rules?

Do you not acknowledge the current tournament rules with snooker and 3C?

Nobody is handing back shots after a fluke.