The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[YubaCushion]

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Did you ever watch a tournament with no-call rules?

Do you not acknowledge the current tournament rules with snooker and 3C?

Nobody is handing back shots after a fluke.

I am going to leave three cushion out of this, it is a different game. Snooker I could go either way on. As far as the rest of the pocket games there is no place for slop except in 9 ball where it it's built in because of the added difficulty of having to hit in order. if you go into a game knowing the rules like 9 ball, then you can' complain. 8 ball, straight pool, are not those games. Slop has no place in them. It was corrected a while ago and should remain that way.

 

[Cornerman]

I am going to leave three cushion out of this, it is a different game. Snooker I could go either way on. As far as the rest of the pocket games there is no place for slop except in 9 ball where it it's built in because of the added difficulty of having to hit in order. if you go into a game knowing the rules like 9 ball, then you can' complain. 8 ball, straight pool, are not those games. Slop has no place in them. It was corrected a while ago and should remain that way.

I was specifically answering the outrageous claim that there was no "pre-call shot era." To which I've written the correct statements, not fantasy or feelings.

What about 10-ball which resembles 9-ball per your statement, but they changed the rules to call-shots. How do you reconcile that?

I could give a crap how anyone "feels" or their "opinion," but keep real and stop with the fantasy (general statement out there). We have enough data and real world examples.

 

[AtLarge]

I don't see why anyone would still say this when just in 10-ball, we spanned the era of no call to call shot just in the past 5 years. And guess what? The best 10-ball players in the world didn't change. It's still Shane, Dennis, Alex...the usual suspects. Nobody suddenly jumped rank because of lack of fluking balls. Not at the top level per your post.

The proof has always been there. Mike Sigel spanned the era of different games totally from 14.1 call shot to luck everything 9-ball. He never stopped being the best player.

Every top player was the top regardless of rules. Isn't that enough proof that rules aren't going to change a top player vs top player? And to my earlier point, isn't a lucky leave 100 times more likely to change the outcome of one set, tournament position, etc. with top players than a fluked-in ball? Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong on this?

Even in the amateur levels of the APA, the APA 7's are the winners and the APA 2's, not so much. The rules don't change anything there either.

Freddie <~~~ will only point to actual, not theoretical.

Freddie, read what I wrote again. I agree that a top guy will win any top event. But that doesn't mean that the top guys (and everyone below them) are never bitten by flukes. What was the tournament-winning percentage of any of the guys you named or any of the other top guys in the past? Do you think they never got knocked out as the result of (or benefit from) fluked shots?

Did you watch the Bigfoot 10-Ball event at Tunica this year? In the last two streamed matches (a semi-final and the final), the 10-ball was made on the break 10 times in the 39 games played (an earlier report by me said 9 times in those two matches; my mistake). Fortunately, it went in a foot-rail pocket each of those times, and they were playing that it had to be spotted if it went in either of those pockets. But what if they had not spotted them (as they wouldn't have the prior year, when all slop counted)? Is that how you want big matches to be decided? I've seen slop be a key factor in big matches by top pros many times.

As to your point about lucky leaves being more frequent, and more likely to change the outcome, than fluked-in balls -- could be. But the fact that we can't, or wouldn't want to, address all forms of luck in pool games doesn't mean we shouldn't address some of the games' most pernicious and most easily addressed forms of luck.

And as you probably are aware, Tony Robles' Predator Tour does address the issue of slopped safes in 10-Ball. After a missed shot, the incoming player has the option to make his opponent shoot again. Some people do not like this rule, because it eliminates one form of two-way shots. WPA 10-Ball rules don't go that far, but still have the call-shot rule (and spot any 10-balls made on the break).

 

[CreeDo]

The proof has always been there. Mike Sigel spanned the era of different games totally from 14.1 call shot to luck everything 9-ball. He never stopped being the best player.
Every top player was the top regardless of rules.

This argument, and the various rephrasings of it, only makes one point:
"Here's why slop is not so bad and doesn't render pool unplayable."

It does NOT explain:
"Here's why slop is BETTER than call shot."

If you can't come up with any answer to that, then why don't we ditch this
demonstrably unfair rule, since supposedly the cream rises to the top under either rule?

Otherwise, you can apply that logic to almost anything.
Why ban cheating at casinos, since the house 'always' wins anyway?

Isn't that enough proof that rules aren't going to change a top player vs top player? And to my earlier point, isn't a lucky leave 100 times more likely to change the outcome of one set, tournament position, etc. with top players than a fluked-in ball? Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong on this?

AbsoLUTELY a lucky leave is likely to change the course of a set, tournament, etc.
Happens ALL the time. So, in a game that is already RIDDLED with luck, why do we need
to artifically inject more? In fact, why don't we take steps to dial it back?

And again, even if you make your point that luck is part of the game no matter what,
this still doesn't explain why you would think slop is BETTER than call-shot.
It only explains why slop is "not so bad" or "not a big deal" etc.

 

[YubaCushion]

I was specifically answering the outrageous claim that there was no "pre-call shot era." To which I've written the correct statements, not fantasy or feelings.

What about 10-ball which resembles 9-ball per your statement, but they changed the rules to call-shots. How do you reconcile that?

I could give a crap how anyone "feels" or their "opinion," but keep real and stop with the fantasy (general statement out there). We have enough data and real world examples.

The majority of players back then that believed that there should be called shots, otherwise the would be no rule. So in that way it did exist.

I wouldn't reconcile a thing. 10 ball is played the way it should be.

 

[Cornerman]

As to your point about lucky leaves being more frequent, and more likely to change the outcome, than fluked-in balls -- could be. But the fact that we can't, or wouldn't want to, address all forms of luck in pool games doesn't mean we shouldn't address some of the games' most pernicious and most easily addressed forms of luck.

This isn't for me to decide, but since your camp is pushing the "let's get rid of luck," then you see what the issue is. You yourself imply (I infer)that you just can't/wouldn't go that far (Grady's Rules and beyond).

So how far is too far? I don't care, but what we can't do is start making up false realities and false statements.

The game was for over 80 years a slop game, and nobody would disagree of the level of play of the champions upon champions in that form. (Reality, slop came before call shot in 8-ball)

Reality: luck safeties outweigh fluked balls by a huge number. That's not even debatable, is it?

The same cream rises to the top. To suggest that a different cream rises is not reality. C'mon.

Unlike apparently 90% of the posters in this thread, I straddled the line of slop rules vs call rules growing up in this game. I can't think for one moment that one set was better than another except for when the rule went against me. (And maybe that's what is happening now).

If you play enough of both, you know what happens... if it's a call shot game but you could have gotten out playing a two way make shot if it were no call (double bank, two shots at the same time), you can't even consider playing it in a call shot game. Does it happen often? Probably one game out of ten (guessing) on a bar table and less on a bigger table does it come up, but it's a skill and recognition that's available with those no call rules that you might not even recognize in call shot.

Are they favored for me? No, it's just another set of rules. Again, since I straddled the rules, I can honestly say I don't care which set. You figure out the nuances of each rule quickly. I played out of room that had an older set of rules so we didn't play full-table ball-in-hand. It was spot up and in the kitchen. Great set of rules, if you ask me.

My biggest complaint? The ever-changing rules when the change doesn't seem to make sense to me. My other big complaint is giving opinions when you (general) just didn't play enough both ways but somehow have this strong opinion or worse .. spout out wrong facts.

To the OP, no call is more fun for me, too. When it's serious competition, I want to play WSR because of consistency and no other reason.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Here is the big picture. No one needs pool. What we have and what we do is not so great and not very important. We are doing recreation. It is optional. Calling balls is just one of many things that have been done to pool making the game increasingly difficult, less fun, and less entertaining. The numbers bare this out. Playing pool should not be like going to work. Loosen up!

Mike Sigel was dominant, winning more than 100 Nine-Ball tournaments never calling a single ball. The better player is going to win anyway. We don't need the burden of called balls to get the job done. Keep pool simple and fun to grow it's popularity.

 

[AtLarge]

This isn't for me to decide, but since your camp is pushing the "let's get rid of luck," then you see what the issue is. You yourself imply (I infer)that you just can't/wouldn't go that far (Grady's Rules and beyond).

I don't like to view myself as in a camp; I just speak my own mind. And I didn't imply that I "wouldn't go that far." I like the Predator Tour rules; some people don't. I also like the WPA rules. I don't like "Texas Express" rules applied to either 9-Ball or 10-Ball.

So how far is too far? I don't care, but what we can't do is start making up false realities and false statements.

I'm not aware of ever doing that.

The same cream rises to the top. To suggest that a different cream rises is not reality. C'mon.

Cream, yes; same cream, not necessarily. C'mon.

My biggest complaint? The ever-changing rules when the change doesn't seem to make sense to me. My other big complaint is giving opinions when you (general) just didn't play enough both ways but somehow have this strong opinion or worse .. spout out wrong facts.

I agree that so many different rules for the same game is complaint-worthy. But things evolve; so be it. And I assume you aren't referring to me in that last quoted sentence.

 

[AtLarge]

... Calling balls is just one of many things that have been done to pool making the game increasingly difficult, less fun, and less entertaining.

For me, calling balls makes the game more fair, more fun, and more rewarding for someone who takes the game seriously and tries his best.

Mike Sigel was dominant, winning more than 100 Nine-Ball tournaments never calling a single ball. The better player is going to win anyway. We don't need the burden of called balls to get the job done. Keep pool simple and fun to grow it's popularity.

What is not fun for me is debunking this sentiment time after time.

 

[CJ Wiley]

in golf, if there 6 targets it's called "PUTT PUTT"

So Hubbart has had it wrong all these years? Our Nine-Ball tournaments are all wrong too? Lead the way. Show us. You are the teacher.

I'm not saying anyone had it "all wrong," I am saying that it makes sense to have one target that's specified like ALL other sports and games.....if basketball had 6 rims it would make the game silly.....and in golf, if there's 6 targets it's called "PUTT PUTT"

Am I the only one that hates to see the great game of pocket billiards played like "PUTT PUTT"???

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Paul Schofield]

For me, calling balls makes the game more fair, more fun, and more rewarding for someone who takes the game seriously and tries his best.

I hear you. I do understand. There are "Felix Unger" types in the world and that order and fairness are critical aspects of their lives. Deviations and violations send them right over a cliff. Well, most people don't function that way. Billiards and its rules are nothing without people. I am of the mind that when devising rules, the first consideration should be to appeal to the broadest sector of the potential pool of participants.

I read what you and many others post and I can't help but think that calling balls is much bigger in your mind than the reality of what happens on a pool table. You had ought to play both ways and take a pencil, paper, and calculator to it.

Here is a concept to think about: Many times, rules that are equally unfair are more fun than rules that are equally fair. I (and most people) will take fun over fair any day. Fair is what we hope to get when we work. Fun is what we hope to have when we play.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized?

Yes, golf! You are required to announce which hole you are shooting into. I bet you didn't know that, did you?

 

[YubaCushion]

This isn't for me to decide, but since your camp is pushing the "let's get rid of luck," then you see what the issue is. You yourself imply (I infer)that you just can't/wouldn't go that far (Grady's Rules and beyond).

So how far is too far? I don't care, but what we can't do is start making up false realities and false statements.

The game was for over 80 years a slop game, and nobody would disagree of the level of play of the champions upon champions in that form. (Reality, slop came before call shot in 8-ball)

Reality: luck safeties outweigh fluked balls by a huge number. That's not even debatable, is it?

The same cream rises to the top. To suggest that a different cream rises is not reality. C'mon.

Unlike apparently 90% of the posters in this thread, I straddled the line of slop rules vs call rules growing up in this game. I can't think for one moment that one set was better than another except for when the rule went against me. (And maybe that's what is happening now).

If you play enough of both, you know what happens... if it's a call shot game but you could have gotten out playing a two way make shot if it were no call (double bank, two shots at the same time), you can't even consider playing it in a call shot game. Does it happen often? Probably one game out of ten (guessing) on a bar table and less on a bigger table does it come up, but it's a skill and recognition that's available with those no call rules that you might not even recognize in call shot.

Are they favored for me? No, it's just another set of rules. Again, since I straddled the rules, I can honestly say I don't care which set. You figure out the nuances of each rule quickly. I played out of room that had an older set of rules so we didn't play full-table ball-in-hand. It was spot up and in the kitchen. Great set of rules, if you ask me.

My biggest complaint? The ever-changing rules when the change doesn't seem to make sense to me. My other big complaint is giving opinions when you (general) just didn't play enough both ways but somehow have this strong opinion or worse .. spout out wrong facts.

To the OP, no call is more fun for me, too. When it's serious competition, I want to play WSR because of consistency and no other reason.

OK, here is some reality, slop is disliked and not played by the majority of pool players, and it's only good if you are playing with kids or people who don't know how to play.
You act like a small group of billiard terrorists hijacked "your game" and you've been forced against your will to call shots and yearn for the good old days that you weren't around in. You don't care for opinions but got no problem rattling off yours. Go get a blog then if you don't like opinions.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Yes, golf! You are required to announce which hole you are shooting into. I bet you didn't know that, did you?

Excuse me. You don't have to call anything. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the fairway. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the green. You don't have to call a putt in the cup. A shot is a shot and you don't have to call it. And you do not have to announce what hole you are shooting at.

 

[lorider]

OK, here is some reality, slop is disliked and not played by the majority of pool players, and it's only good if you are playing with kids or people who don't know how to play.
You act like a small group of billiard terrorists hijacked "your game" and you've been forced against your will to call shots and yearn for the good old days that you weren't around in. You don't care for opinions but got no problem rattling off yours. Go get a blog then if you don't like opinions.

what majority are you talking about ? amatuers ? there are 3 times as many players in apa " slop league " as there are in bcapl " call pocket league ". that argument dont hold water as far as leagues go.

pros ? i have never heard of a pro saying : i aint playing 9 ball because its a slop game "

so i ask again , what majority are you talking about ?

in posts 121 and 125 you contradicted yourself. or as my old man used to say " you talking out both sides of your mouth kid ".

in post 121 you say its ok for slop in 9 ball due to having to get on the next numerical ball. in post 125 you say 10 ball is played as it should be " after it was changed from a slop game " my words there.

there is no difference in how the 2 games are played so why do you say its ok for slop in one but not the other?

inquiring minds want to know .

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Excuse me. You don't have to call anything. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the fairway. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the green. You don't have to call a putt in the cup. A shot is a shot and you don't have to call it. And you do not have to announce what hole you are shooting at.

Of course not, it's obvious, I was being facetious.

However, in pro football, the NFL, the quarterback is required to announce to the defense what their play is. That's why they're always barking out all the stuff over center.

 

[YubaCushion]

what majority are you talking about ? amatuers ? there are 3 times as many players in apa " slop league " as there are in bcapl " call pocket league ". that argument dont hold water as far as leagues go.

pros ? i have never heard of a pro saying : i aint playing 9 ball because its a slop game "

so i ask again , what majority are you talking about ?

in posts 121 and 125 you contradicted yourself. or as my old man used to say " you talking out both sides of your mouth kid ".

in post 121 you say its ok for slop in 9 ball due to having to get on the next numerical ball. in post 125 you say 10 ball is played as it should be " after it was changed from a slop game " my words there.

there is no difference in how the 2 games are played so why do you say its ok for slop in one but not the other?

inquiring minds want to know .

In 9 ball slop is built in. It was made that way. I don't like it, but that's the way it is and if I want to play it that's the way it goes. So that makes it OK. 10 ball is not that way. It is a call shot game. I read in a few places that's why slop counts in 9 ball because of the rule of having to hit them in order. If you know different, let me know. So no, I didn't contradict myself kid. Correct me if I'm wrong but 9 ball is the only game in the both the APA and BCA that slop counts.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Excuse me. You don't have to call anything. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the fairway. You don't have to call if you are going to hit the green. You don't have to call a putt in the cup. A shot is a shot and you don't have to call it. And you do not have to announce what hole you are shooting at.

Paul, your analogy is irrelevant. In golf the "pocket" is called for you when you stand on the tee, but the point is the same, you must put a specific ball in a specific hole. Yes you don't have to call whether you hit the fairway or not but that is similar to not having to call the ball kissing off another or hitting the rail on the way in. As far as announcing anything, well you don't have to do that in pool either unless the shot is not obvious. The only reason you don't have to announce the shot in golf is because there is only one ball and only one hole - there simply is no reason to because the shot is ALWAYS obvious.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I'm not saying anyone had it "all wrong," I am saying that it makes sense to have one target that's specified like ALL other sports and games

CJ, we are not talking about targets. We are talking about calling every shot. Can you imagine if a football or basketball team had to run every play that they called. The other night I saw a baseball player ooops check swing a blooping single into the outfield. There is a lot of excitement in the unplanned and unexpected. There are also ways to increase the chances of the unexpected to happen. That is a big part of pocket billiards: 2 and 3 way shots, double banks, caroms, playing percentages. This stuff adds a lot of excitement to our game. I am saying that we should stop tightening our games down.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Yes you don't have to call whether you hit the fairway or not

Thank you. That is correct. That was the point I was making. You don't have to call every shot in golf. and we should not have to call every shot in pool either.