*** Thin Ball Aiming System-inside of object ball ***
- Thread starter mr3cushion
- Start date
In that case, on the table I play on, I think the shot with left english can only be made by hitting rail first or with a half masse.
This is a vitally important thread. An apparent conflict between science and experience.
On the one hand, we have the science and technology, which have been exhaustively studied by Jewett and Dr. Dave.
On the other hand, we have the phenomena that top 3-Cushion players are clearly employing different types of stroke in various situations, as described and advocated in Cuelemann's book.
How are we to decide? I don't know. It would be interesting to ask various top players why they use different strokes. If they can't produce any examples of shots that require anything other than a normal stroke, it would be very revealing. Many young, budding superstars of tomorrow would be delighted to know that they only need a normal stroke for all situations, rather than 4 or 5.
My experience as a lowly C+ player would suggest that different strokes are indeed useful, but I cannot prove that this is true or even why it seems to be. Maybe it is like many aspects of the world, where if it is not true, it is "as if" it's true.
Meanwhile, we all owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Bob Jewett and Dr. Dave for the enormous amount of painstaking exploration and study of all aspects of what happens on the table.
Similarly, I am in awe of the tremendous levels of skill and performance attained by Blomdahl, Caudron, Jaspers and others.
I don't see how the apparent contradictions of this thread can possibly be resolved soon or easily. Jewett's call for practical examples is central. If it can't be demonstrated that anything other than a normal stroke is ever needed, a lot of us are kidding ourselves.
On the one hand, we have the science and technology, which have been exhaustively studied by Jewett and Dr. Dave.
On the other hand, we have the phenomena that top 3-Cushion players are clearly employing different types of stroke in various situations, as described and advocated in Cuelemann's book.
How are we to decide? I don't know. It would be interesting to ask various top players why they use different strokes. If they can't produce any examples of shots that require anything other than a normal stroke, it would be very revealing. Many young, budding superstars of tomorrow would be delighted to know that they only need a normal stroke for all situations, rather than 4 or 5.
My experience as a lowly C+ player would suggest that different strokes are indeed useful, but I cannot prove that this is true or even why it seems to be. Maybe it is like many aspects of the world, where if it is not true, it is "as if" it's true.
Meanwhile, we all owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Bob Jewett and Dr. Dave for the enormous amount of painstaking exploration and study of all aspects of what happens on the table.
Similarly, I am in awe of the tremendous levels of skill and performance attained by Blomdahl, Caudron, Jaspers and others.
I don't see how the apparent contradictions of this thread can possibly be resolved soon or easily. Jewett's call for practical examples is central. If it can't be demonstrated that anything other than a normal stroke is ever needed, a lot of us are kidding ourselves.
I am really sorry if I have caused trouble and controversy. I wished to back up my standing on this matter and I believe I have taken it too far. As I have said earlier, what I can do on paper I cannot do nor show in real life, so I suppose I have not proved anything at all. If you would all allow, I take back any argument I have made and will keep it to myself. I am NOT a good player, technical or otherwise. I have spoken out of turn and I sincerely apologize for it and the problems it caused.
I have to side with Bob on this one. My take on it:
Traditional teachings in 3 cushion and in pool with specialty shots that come up in games (like one pocket for instance) indicate to use a certain type of stroke to make certain types of shots. I even remember some pool books that advocated 3 or 4 different types of strokes that must be learned to play well - dead stroke, wristy stroke, etc.
It should be common sense that the ball doesn't care how it's hit, it has to comply with the laws of physics and will react based on the angle, speed, tip position, etc. that is applied, and only that. Same with tennis or golf, the ball that's being struck doesn't care about how the racquet or club was being held in the hands or manipulated prior to contact, only the speed, angle, etc upon impact.
Now, holding your grip loosely, or snapping your wrist at just the right moment, or limiting your follow through, may allow you to "feel" the shot better and impart the right combination of these factors more consistently. But I guarantee you if you hit the ball with a short follow through at a speed of 10 mph at impact and hit the same shot normally at 10 mph (all other factors being equal) the cue ball will react identically. The thousandth of a second that it's in contact with the cue is not enough time to change the hit.
What I think happens, and why certain players swear by the effects, is that the short follow through for instance might force you to decelerate somewhat through the shot, so you swing at 10mph but make contact at 8mph say. And while you could swing slower and make the same hit at 8mph, doing so might make you feel like you have to account for other variables differently (squirt, curve) or might just feel awkward. Or, quite simply, you have learned that the shot goes with the specialty stroke in question and just keep doing it.
Example from pool:
I once played in a clinic with Francisco Bustamante and he was showing us a certain shot in 9 ball that required an up stroke in order to lengthen the ball after contact. The cue ball was 5 feet away from the object ball, so it would attain natural roll anyway by the time it made contact. I asked him why you couldn't just use a normal follow stroke, and he said something like it didn't work, something about the "feelings". Now I'm not going to argue with Bustamante, but sorry, upon impact with the object ball the cue ball doesn't know or remember how it was struck 5 feet prior - it has a certain rotation, speed, etc. to achieve the shot in question, that's it. Hitting up through the ball may help one feel like they get the required combination of speed and english on the ball, but any method could be used to get the same combination of speed and english and the results would be the same.
Scott
Traditional teachings in 3 cushion and in pool with specialty shots that come up in games (like one pocket for instance) indicate to use a certain type of stroke to make certain types of shots. I even remember some pool books that advocated 3 or 4 different types of strokes that must be learned to play well - dead stroke, wristy stroke, etc.
It should be common sense that the ball doesn't care how it's hit, it has to comply with the laws of physics and will react based on the angle, speed, tip position, etc. that is applied, and only that. Same with tennis or golf, the ball that's being struck doesn't care about how the racquet or club was being held in the hands or manipulated prior to contact, only the speed, angle, etc upon impact.
Now, holding your grip loosely, or snapping your wrist at just the right moment, or limiting your follow through, may allow you to "feel" the shot better and impart the right combination of these factors more consistently. But I guarantee you if you hit the ball with a short follow through at a speed of 10 mph at impact and hit the same shot normally at 10 mph (all other factors being equal) the cue ball will react identically. The thousandth of a second that it's in contact with the cue is not enough time to change the hit.
What I think happens, and why certain players swear by the effects, is that the short follow through for instance might force you to decelerate somewhat through the shot, so you swing at 10mph but make contact at 8mph say. And while you could swing slower and make the same hit at 8mph, doing so might make you feel like you have to account for other variables differently (squirt, curve) or might just feel awkward. Or, quite simply, you have learned that the shot goes with the specialty stroke in question and just keep doing it.
Example from pool:
I once played in a clinic with Francisco Bustamante and he was showing us a certain shot in 9 ball that required an up stroke in order to lengthen the ball after contact. The cue ball was 5 feet away from the object ball, so it would attain natural roll anyway by the time it made contact. I asked him why you couldn't just use a normal follow stroke, and he said something like it didn't work, something about the "feelings". Now I'm not going to argue with Bustamante, but sorry, upon impact with the object ball the cue ball doesn't know or remember how it was struck 5 feet prior - it has a certain rotation, speed, etc. to achieve the shot in question, that's it. Hitting up through the ball may help one feel like they get the required combination of speed and english on the ball, but any method could be used to get the same combination of speed and english and the results would be the same.
Scott
Mr Framedglassadd, You don't have to feel sorry, To me , you are GENIUS ! I am inspired by your conversation and ANALYSES coming from non professional player . I don't know how to thank you ,Please you don't have to prove anything ,YOU JUST CONVINCED ME . Hope one day will meet and I ll prove to you that what your saying is True.
Your thinking is beyond the rest of the players , and believe that 3 cushion in the states needs people like you OPEN MINDED ,and instructors like Bill SMITH,
Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge ,I ll make sure that I execute every single shot you post with the proper technique .
enjoy the game and have fun , Hope that 3 cushion become popular again , WE NEED A DOCTOR ......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA770wpLX-Q&noredirect=1
Bob; The shot using left Englsh is a Very difficult shot to execute, I have no doubt you are having issues with it. I doubt if it is the table, this shot and technique is not players that average between, 3.00-6.00, the stroke is a little complicated! But keep practicing.
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Last edited:
Framedglasshad; YOU, did not offend me in the least, in fact I can tell you are somewhat in favor of my approach.
Let me say this, if you ever decide that you would like to learn to play 3 cushion, I would gladly instruct you for FREE! You have the start to the CORRECT concept already!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://mr3cushion.com
P.S. I invite you to visit my website, I think you'll find it informative and entertaining.
No don't shut up or keep it to yourself. Your points make people think. Made you think too. Made me think.
Not much is discovered without some kind of action. Keep it coming.
shots
Bill
I tried both shots.
Made the first example on the first try and am getting very consistent. The short bridge works very well and I thank you.
The second shot.....not yet. This is NOT the first shot that others make that I cannot. I will keep at it.
Thanks
Rick
Bill
I tried both shots.
Made the first example on the first try and am getting very consistent. The short bridge works very well and I thank you.
The second shot.....not yet. This is NOT the first shot that others make that I cannot. I will keep at it.
Thanks
Rick
Rick; Glad to see you took the time to investigate my theories and techniques on these 2 shots. By mastering them, you can imploy the stroke to lesser difficult positions with controlled results.
Billiards is a game of memory, to be able to recognize when what stroke for what shot is to be applied, helps make the most difficult game, a little less frustrating for most of us!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
P.S. BTW, my NEW bookllet, "Strokes...Systems n Strategies" will be ready for printing in 1 week!
Last edited:
Was the white ball on the first diamond and your cue ball somewhat closer to the end rail than the white ball? About how much did you have to elevate?
So there is NO confusion, in my clinics and exhibitions the diagram below shows the positions of the cue ball. I start with the yellow ball, then move to the left to the purple position and finally to the left again for the green cue ball position. I increase the difficulty to show the extreme the "short stroke" technique can achieve!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
P.S. Let me also say, I've demonstrated this tecnique to many pool players to cut the 1st ball into the left corner pocket without hitting rail first. The only way to get the cue ball to travel to the left bottom rail from the green cue ball position is to hit the ball FIRST!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
P.S. Let me also say, I've demonstrated this tecnique to many pool players to cut the 1st ball into the left corner pocket without hitting rail first. The only way to get the cue ball to travel to the left bottom rail from the green cue ball position is to hit the ball FIRST!
Last edited:
made it
Bob
The balls were set as they are in the original diagram.
My first 100 tries were very frustrating. Then I elevated my back hand. Bob I don't know exactly how much elevation. I was "feeling" it. It was not as much elevation as I would use to masse around a ball....but I was concentrating on shooting down thru the ball at about 8 o'clock....with a short bridge. When I made it the first time it was unexpected. BUT, when it is hit absolutely perfectly....the cue ball comes off of the rail and heads back across the table to the corner like it was on a string. Impressive!
I spent the time on the shot so I could learn, and I thank Bill.
The first shot and the short bridge will be additions to my game.
The second shot, because of the difficulty, and because I am 65 and vibrate more each year, I will probably not use. I am glad I know it can be done and that I CAN make it. But I can score from that position with easier shots. Of course Bill knows that. Thanks for sharing Bill!
Rick
Bob
The balls were set as they are in the original diagram.
My first 100 tries were very frustrating. Then I elevated my back hand. Bob I don't know exactly how much elevation. I was "feeling" it. It was not as much elevation as I would use to masse around a ball....but I was concentrating on shooting down thru the ball at about 8 o'clock....with a short bridge. When I made it the first time it was unexpected. BUT, when it is hit absolutely perfectly....the cue ball comes off of the rail and heads back across the table to the corner like it was on a string. Impressive!
I spent the time on the shot so I could learn, and I thank Bill.
The first shot and the short bridge will be additions to my game.
The second shot, because of the difficulty, and because I am 65 and vibrate more each year, I will probably not use. I am glad I know it can be done and that I CAN make it. But I can score from that position with easier shots. Of course Bill knows that. Thanks for sharing Bill!
Rick
Yes, but don't you think the "short stroke" technique in question is really just a more efficient way of hitting the shot and getting the right bounce or semi-masse effect on the ball?
I've hit the same shot in pool, and it would be weird to hit a normal follow through on a shot like this since you are essentially digging into the ball somewhat, the tip would jam into the cloth unnecessarily. You basically want to feel that "pinch" happening.
As I answered in a PM, using an up stroke / down stroke or otherwise angling the cue will have a different effect on the cue ball than a level cue, but shortening or lengthening the follow through is just a result of the actions that took place earlier in the stroke and can not have any direct impact on the shot since the ball left the tip already. Don't think I would change my mind on this unless I saw it on HSV, just doesn't make logical sense.
That being said, having the feeling of doing certain things before/during/after the stroke can help a person achieve a certain hit on a ball more consistently and for that reason I think these various strokes are taught and used. Similar to a knockdown shot in golf - the low, abbreviated follow through does nothing by itself to keep the ball down out of the wind, the ball left 1/2 second before that. It's the setup changes prior to the shot and the change in the acceleration and face angle during the swing that causes the different ball flight and only results in the low follow through as evidence of the changes that were made earlier in the swing.
Scott
I've hit the same shot in pool, and it would be weird to hit a normal follow through on a shot like this since you are essentially digging into the ball somewhat, the tip would jam into the cloth unnecessarily. You basically want to feel that "pinch" happening.
As I answered in a PM, using an up stroke / down stroke or otherwise angling the cue will have a different effect on the cue ball than a level cue, but shortening or lengthening the follow through is just a result of the actions that took place earlier in the stroke and can not have any direct impact on the shot since the ball left the tip already. Don't think I would change my mind on this unless I saw it on HSV, just doesn't make logical sense.
That being said, having the feeling of doing certain things before/during/after the stroke can help a person achieve a certain hit on a ball more consistently and for that reason I think these various strokes are taught and used. Similar to a knockdown shot in golf - the low, abbreviated follow through does nothing by itself to keep the ball down out of the wind, the ball left 1/2 second before that. It's the setup changes prior to the shot and the change in the acceleration and face angle during the swing that causes the different ball flight and only results in the low follow through as evidence of the changes that were made earlier in the swing.
Scott
short bridge
I have been taught, by champions, some things that work, and when/where to apply them. They work for me without scientific explanation or high speed video....so I use them. Numbers and theory are interesting, to me, to a point. Result are what I am attracted to. Champions do it more consistently and under pressure. I can go to a table and demonstrate what I know. Bill and C.J. and other players who are much better than I.....have a tough task teaching by word on these sights. People, who cannot play at their level, argue with them. It is better for me to just listen and then try what they say. It almost always pays off...for me. That is my approach...it is meant as an observation.....not meant as criticism. I am too old to spend time arguing but I still love to learn. In the old days no one would teach or show these things. We are blessed.
Rick
I have been taught, by champions, some things that work, and when/where to apply them. They work for me without scientific explanation or high speed video....so I use them. Numbers and theory are interesting, to me, to a point. Result are what I am attracted to. Champions do it more consistently and under pressure. I can go to a table and demonstrate what I know. Bill and C.J. and other players who are much better than I.....have a tough task teaching by word on these sights. People, who cannot play at their level, argue with them. It is better for me to just listen and then try what they say. It almost always pays off...for me. That is my approach...it is meant as an observation.....not meant as criticism. I am too old to spend time arguing but I still love to learn. In the old days no one would teach or show these things. We are blessed.
Rick
I am SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED, as with many others, to find out that the contact time bwt cuetip and cueball is soooo short in milisecond.... and the videos are the proof. For fast cuetip speed, it must be true... For SLOW cuetip speed, contact time is a tiny bit longer that it might create certain effects on the cueball..
All techniques done, hand movements, different types of stroke use in billiard is to CREATE THE DESIRED ACCELERATION. The outcome of the shot depend largely on many other factors..
I agree with Scott that, "the Shortening and Lengthening of the follow through is a result of the action took place earlier from the stroke". A slow stroke usually follow by a short follow through, while a fast stroke follow with a longer natural follow through.
CONSIDER THIS?
1. With the diagram given by Mr3Cushion, can anyone demonstrate it with all FIVE different types of STROKES said on the first page???
2. Can someone demonstrate a DEAD-BALL STROKE in a five railer shot with 1/3 ball hit, 4 tips of english with fast speed???
In pool, there is a STOP SHOT, where after pocketing the object ball, the cueball stay close to where it made contact with the object ball... NO ONE CALL IT A STOP STROKE OR DEAD STROKE... IT'S JUST A SHOT ITSELF.
It all depends on the speed, cuetip position on the cueball and how thick you hit the object ball..
This thread is getting very interesting and im starting to DOUBT IF THERE ARE REALLY DIFFERENT TYPES OF STROKES???????
Maybe we should call it with DIFFERENT TYPES OF SHOTS rather than DIFFERENT TYPES OF STROKES.......
All techniques done, hand movements, different types of stroke use in billiard is to CREATE THE DESIRED ACCELERATION. The outcome of the shot depend largely on many other factors..
I agree with Scott that, "the Shortening and Lengthening of the follow through is a result of the action took place earlier from the stroke". A slow stroke usually follow by a short follow through, while a fast stroke follow with a longer natural follow through.
CONSIDER THIS?
1. With the diagram given by Mr3Cushion, can anyone demonstrate it with all FIVE different types of STROKES said on the first page???
2. Can someone demonstrate a DEAD-BALL STROKE in a five railer shot with 1/3 ball hit, 4 tips of english with fast speed???
In pool, there is a STOP SHOT, where after pocketing the object ball, the cueball stay close to where it made contact with the object ball... NO ONE CALL IT A STOP STROKE OR DEAD STROKE... IT'S JUST A SHOT ITSELF.
It all depends on the speed, cuetip position on the cueball and how thick you hit the object ball..
This thread is getting very interesting and im starting to DOUBT IF THERE ARE REALLY DIFFERENT TYPES OF STROKES???????
Maybe we should call it with DIFFERENT TYPES OF SHOTS rather than DIFFERENT TYPES OF STROKES.......
Sight; Did you happen to miss this quote from me, "Rick; Glad to see you took the time to investigate my theories and techniques on these 2 shots. "By mastering them, you can imploy the stroke to lesser difficult positions with controlled results".
Billiards is a game of memory, to be able to recognize when what stroke for what shot is to be applied, helps make the most difficult game, a little less frustrating for most of us"!
EVERY shot in billiards has a particular stroke that needs to be applied to achieve the results the player is trying to obtain. Whether just to score, play position, play safe, 3 cushions, 5 or 7 cushions, spin the ball, draw the ball, follow close, follow far, and a specific timing and tempo to the stroke, am I getting to advanced, just let me know when to stop!
I and many World Ranknig players know what kind of "hand-eye" coordination it takes to achieve any specific effect on the cue ball, as well as the 1st object ball to play the "Modern Game" of 3 cushion billiards.
I'm the OP of this thread, I wanted to give the members some insight to a simple method of being able to make thin hits of degrees. Certain strokes, timing and tempo help to make this task easier. That's All.
If some of the disbelievers are in need of written and visual aid, I sugest that they purchase my book and DVD set, "The Concise Book of Position Play" and my latest DVD, "The Secrets EXPOSED Consecutive Scoring For a Higher Average"
You can order both at my website: http://mr3cushion.com
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Last edited:
I wasn't trying to start an aiming-style thread war in the carom section, just happened to see the posts and threw in my 2 cents.
I know what you are saying Bill, that certain types of strokes or hits help to get a desired effect on the balls and are very repeatable from certain positions. I'm just saying that the stroke itself, or limiting/extending the follow through, is not responsible for any magical effects, and if one were able to impart the same speed/spin/angle of attack on the cue ball with a different type of stroke the same results would occur.
I know people feel they do certain things that have a certain impact on the ball. There's a fairly decent older pool player in my room that swears he imparts sidespin by hitting center ball and therefore can eliminate deflection completely. Obviously that's impossible, he doesn't realize he's using the swooping form of backhand english and no amount of explanation will make him think any differently. I know I've been surprised over the years by seeing things in high speed video, never would have guessed how much a tennis ball or even golf ball gets compressed upon impact, not to mention all of the great HSV that Dr. Dave and Bob produced for pool. Physics don't lie.
I'll bow out of the thread, as pointed out it wasn't even about this and I don't think there's any point in continuing to say the same thing. Bill is a fantastic 3-cushion player and I'm sure I could learn a lot from him given the opportunity. Unfortunately I don't even play anymore, no tables anywhere nearby, although I love the game and would play non-stop and probably even give up pool altogether if I was able to play regularly. I'm sure my average is 1/2 what is used to be at this point, maybe worse, I've only played a dozen or so times in 10 years. Although I played 3 times in a row while traveling last year and by the second and third days it was coming back...
Scott
I know what you are saying Bill, that certain types of strokes or hits help to get a desired effect on the balls and are very repeatable from certain positions. I'm just saying that the stroke itself, or limiting/extending the follow through, is not responsible for any magical effects, and if one were able to impart the same speed/spin/angle of attack on the cue ball with a different type of stroke the same results would occur.
I know people feel they do certain things that have a certain impact on the ball. There's a fairly decent older pool player in my room that swears he imparts sidespin by hitting center ball and therefore can eliminate deflection completely. Obviously that's impossible, he doesn't realize he's using the swooping form of backhand english and no amount of explanation will make him think any differently. I know I've been surprised over the years by seeing things in high speed video, never would have guessed how much a tennis ball or even golf ball gets compressed upon impact, not to mention all of the great HSV that Dr. Dave and Bob produced for pool. Physics don't lie.
I'll bow out of the thread, as pointed out it wasn't even about this and I don't think there's any point in continuing to say the same thing. Bill is a fantastic 3-cushion player and I'm sure I could learn a lot from him given the opportunity. Unfortunately I don't even play anymore, no tables anywhere nearby, although I love the game and would play non-stop and probably even give up pool altogether if I was able to play regularly. I'm sure my average is 1/2 what is used to be at this point, maybe worse, I've only played a dozen or so times in 10 years. Although I played 3 times in a row while traveling last year and by the second and third days it was coming back...
Scott