This is an interesting topic
- Thread starter One Pocket John
- Start date
It’s got some merit but mostly just surface scratching jabber in between the no nothing instructor juju rants.
No clear explanation as to what a straight wrist actually is on the cradle hand.
The web he talked about....that’s “how” I do it....there is no grip my thumbs underside touches the front inside of my finger.
Generally speaking For SOP that would happen to be my RING finger....I use it for inverted shooting of say masse as well....jumps whatever
It’s super duper and be what it be
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
No clear explanation as to what a straight wrist actually is on the cradle hand.
The web he talked about....that’s “how” I do it....there is no grip my thumbs underside touches the front inside of my finger.
Generally speaking For SOP that would happen to be my RING finger....I use it for inverted shooting of say masse as well....jumps whatever
It’s super duper and be what it be
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
It’s got some merit but mostly just surface scratching jabber in between the no nothing instructor juju rants.
No clear explanation as to what a straight wrist actually is on the cradle hand.
The web he talked about....that’s “how” I do it....there is no grip my thumbs underside touches the front inside of my finger.
Generally speaking For SOP that would happen to be my RING finger....I use it for inverted shooting of say masse as well....jumps whatever
It’s super duper and be what it be
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I think it is good to recognize that the grip and wrist are important subjects and that ultimately you can't have a good. solid stroke without mastering how these things should be handled. Beyond that, things like "I put my thumb here or there" etc. are pretty much useless. Yes, you can pick up tips here or there but it takes hours and hours at the table to figure out what works best for you. Most never get there, IMO.
But hearing how others do it isn't useless. Knowing some common variations can save some of those hours of experimentation.
pj <- grip matters
chgo
Well of course....full explanations and rhymes and reasons are required for it to be anything but confusing.
Most don’t because they lack the knowledge, but often even when accessed....the player will refuse to change or possibly try. Some of it can be alleviated with how we describe the positions feelings.....
New things feel uncomfortable for most......when I use a key word like that feeling you will have is the “slot”. The player searches for that and when greeted by it isn’t driven away by its lack of familiarity or mental discomfort.
Not speaking of troubleshooting the oddities but generally speaking....how we can move the body...the mechanics....that’s roughly the same from person
At 90 holding the hand or just standing and at your side one touches tip to tip thumb and pointer then thumb to middle then thumb to ring.....the thumb becomes more and more plumb....
That will put the cuestick inline with the center of the forearm, elbow,shoulder,backfoot.....and all those in a perfect world go on the shotline.
Gripping with a crooked wrist can lead to swooping deliveries, strange alignments and good old throttle hands during delivery.....getttt it!
https://youtu.be/X_h7_4O4d6A
I don't disagree but I would put what you are talking about in the "tips" category. Like, cock your wrist a little inward like Stan and I think Hohmann do to prevent wrist curl during the shot. That's a good tip but might not be appropriate for me. Holding the cue more with the last three fingers, holding the cue with only the first two fingers and on and on are all things that work for whoever is recommending them, but I say take it with a grain of salt.
Once you understand how important it is, and really believe it, then you need some kind of feedback mechanism. Cue ball up and back shot, digicue, and other methods can give the feedback necessary to confirm whether your solutions are working. That can't be told to you. You have to experience it and figure it out for yourself. Then the hard part is making sure you are actually fixing a problem instead of merely compensating for some other unknown factor like a wonky elbow or head movement just before the shot.
Of course it should be recognized that the player's level of play has a lot to do with it as well. I can tell a beginner that the wrist and hand should be relaxed and that will mean something completely different to an advanced player.
These tips, standing alone, are useless. And what works for one will not necessarily work for all. It's like saying I have a great piston, or valve, or rod for an engine. Alone, that's useless. Its only if you know *all* the components and how they will work together that the part is of any use.
A wrist cock, or a finger position might work, if it's deployed with other very specific components. There are also body part issues and how they are integrated into the stroke setup. Ferinstance, someone with long fingers might find that cradling the cue is more effective, while someone with shorter fingers might find pronating the wrist the way to go.
It's the whole enchilada that's imporatnt, not one particular ingredient, IMO.
Lou Figueroa
holy guacamole
Batman
And that's why people have different weight and balance preferences .
A lot of elbow droppers I know prefer lighter cues.
I know one really good pistoner likes 17 oz cues.
Cue slippers like heavier and more forward heavy cues.
The Miz who had a really short powerful stroke liked really heavy forward weighted cues.
oh yeah.
There can be a whole slew of reasons for personal preferences, the bottomline for which is: you play better because __________.
Some guys just happen on a good/great combination of cue and setup. Others struggle through life and may never find their optimum setup, which might just be a cue or small change in their PSR away. Other guys are so inconsistent in how they approach the table they got no chance even given a hundred years.
Lou Figueroa
Fast Larry's old posts must be taken with a big pinch of salt! Beware.
There are almost as many grips as there are players...Obviously the main thing to avoid is the grip influencing the straight line of the cue.
I think there are three main philosophies here:
1. Disconnecting by holding the cue so loosely that the grip has little chance to twist the cue. The most extreme example being the reverse slip where the cue actually slides inside the hand. The problem for me is that when I get nervous I tense up. So this tends to make me grip the cue, thus destroying this technique.
2. Controlling the cue by holding it more firmly. Here we create a groove or track for the cue to lie in inside of the hand. I like to think of this as creating a "wall" on one side of the cue or the other. When the thumb is pointing straight down, it is the wall. When the back of the hand is pointing straight down, the palm or base of the fingers form a wall. I like the idea of the cue being supported as much as possible, so I usually use the one where the back of the hand is pointing almost straight downwards. The cue then rides against the palm and very base of the fingers, taking the fingers out of the equation more or less as far as sideways movement is concerned. They are still active in the stroke, but they don't have as much of a chance to introduce twisting. This technique helped me tremendously with getting rid of the panic twist and gave me confidence to use my wrist more. I get to take advantage of the pinky's great leverage for a free extra boost upon the closing of the hand, but with the wall supporting the cue, it's not going sideways.
3. Hybrid: The toughest grip to master IMO is the one where the wrist is in the neutral position. There isn't a wall being formed, but rather the cue is being held at a narrow point and the supported as the swing impacts the ball. To me at least this requires a very complex movement of the fingers to avoid twisting. The grip is then held primarily with the webbing between the thumb and index and the others wrap around as the cue strikes. I've never fully mastered this and I've given up on it. This is actually the primary recommended grip in most instructional videos and sounds the best on paper, with the wrist neutral the arm can move more freely. But if you're prone to nervous clenching of muscles, this grip often breaks down. It looks beautiful when done right, but my fingers are not suited for it, I think. A lot of people who use this don't close the hand fully, but rather use only the index and middle finger, keeping the ring and pinky more or less off the cue. There is a good reason for that. That final closing tends to bring a lot of power, but the pinky often pulls the cue off line. That's why I prefer the controlling the cue approach. It lets me use the pinky, yet with the cue supported, it doesn't get as much of a chance to destroy the straight line.
This is an interesting subject, and there are lots of different opinions on what is the best grip. I think the important thing is to understand how your hands and wrist work and build around that. For instance I have a small hand and very long fingers, with the two middle fingers being a lot longer than the others. For someone with shorter fingers of more equal length, their requirements become much different.
I think there are three main philosophies here:
1. Disconnecting by holding the cue so loosely that the grip has little chance to twist the cue. The most extreme example being the reverse slip where the cue actually slides inside the hand. The problem for me is that when I get nervous I tense up. So this tends to make me grip the cue, thus destroying this technique.
2. Controlling the cue by holding it more firmly. Here we create a groove or track for the cue to lie in inside of the hand. I like to think of this as creating a "wall" on one side of the cue or the other. When the thumb is pointing straight down, it is the wall. When the back of the hand is pointing straight down, the palm or base of the fingers form a wall. I like the idea of the cue being supported as much as possible, so I usually use the one where the back of the hand is pointing almost straight downwards. The cue then rides against the palm and very base of the fingers, taking the fingers out of the equation more or less as far as sideways movement is concerned. They are still active in the stroke, but they don't have as much of a chance to introduce twisting. This technique helped me tremendously with getting rid of the panic twist and gave me confidence to use my wrist more. I get to take advantage of the pinky's great leverage for a free extra boost upon the closing of the hand, but with the wall supporting the cue, it's not going sideways.
3. Hybrid: The toughest grip to master IMO is the one where the wrist is in the neutral position. There isn't a wall being formed, but rather the cue is being held at a narrow point and the supported as the swing impacts the ball. To me at least this requires a very complex movement of the fingers to avoid twisting. The grip is then held primarily with the webbing between the thumb and index and the others wrap around as the cue strikes. I've never fully mastered this and I've given up on it. This is actually the primary recommended grip in most instructional videos and sounds the best on paper, with the wrist neutral the arm can move more freely. But if you're prone to nervous clenching of muscles, this grip often breaks down. It looks beautiful when done right, but my fingers are not suited for it, I think. A lot of people who use this don't close the hand fully, but rather use only the index and middle finger, keeping the ring and pinky more or less off the cue. There is a good reason for that. That final closing tends to bring a lot of power, but the pinky often pulls the cue off line. That's why I prefer the controlling the cue approach. It lets me use the pinky, yet with the cue supported, it doesn't get as much of a chance to destroy the straight line.
This is an interesting subject, and there are lots of different opinions on what is the best grip. I think the important thing is to understand how your hands and wrist work and build around that. For instance I have a small hand and very long fingers, with the two middle fingers being a lot longer than the others. For someone with shorter fingers of more equal length, their requirements become much different.
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IMO this is possibly your most well thought out, insightful, and best post ever.
Far too many players become stroke addicts in search of the perfect stroke to make balls and hold up under pressure. It's the grip pressure and hand/wrist position that changes from nerves in certain fingers or the wrist causing the stroke to go off.
So what's the best grip? I think it's a personal thing. It's whatever prevents us from doing the most common problem we have as individuals to alter the stroke under pressure. Playing at home or in a pool room alone can't ever duplicate what happens with the nerves and twitching when playing for some higher stakes either in a money match or meaningful tournament.
Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't bet enough money over their comfort level for higher stakes to feel the changes and see the negative outcome of shots.
When it does happen what you typically hear is "I've never played so bad in my life.
Missed shots I never miss. Dogged it all night long. The whole game fell apart."
One of the reasons why I've gotten away from a neutral wrist position. It can be a two way flinch or flick changing it to either curl under or upward occurring in a millisecond and once it does it's too late. The cue is going off line from it's original straight position.
That's why I've gone to Stan's slightly curled under position with the back of the wrist bowed outward and fingers curled under. It's a strong position. You can only alter it one way which would be to roll your fingers and knuckles back upward during the stroke. A tough thing to do when the nerves jump. It stays locked.
Sounds like you're kind of doing the same thing. Correct?
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Who was it who said........"You think the pockets on this table are loose and sloppy? Just double the bet, they'll get smaller". :wink: