Thorsten Hohmann Vs The World

StormHotRod300

StormHotRod300

BigSexy
Silver Member
Not sure if this has been talked about before but, everyone talks about The Best All Around player, or who has the best over all game, in every type of billiards game.

And after seeing or hearing about Hohmann winning many many tournaments in a very dominating fashion, i am curious if he has the Best all around game in pool. Everyone talks about his straight pool run, which is over 400, or how he seems to dominate every game he tries. And how his work ethics and skills and everything is just amazing.

But does it compare with Reyes? since he has been called the best over all pool player in the world. And is the first IPT tournament winner and new King of the Hill.

Plus you could go on endlessly comparing Hohmann against every other pro pool player in the world too.

And of course everyone has thier best game, weather its 9ball or 8ball or 7ball or straight pool. But they also have thier weak game. Which i havent heard of Hohmann being weak at billiards game.

Plus if he was to take on anyone heads up, who can you say would be a lock to beat him?
 
Hohmann is in the top 25 in the world IMO. But he isn't a candidate for the best all around player. Reyes forever holds that title, and right below him would be Varner and Sigel for the last two decades.
 
If you've ever been to a tourney where both Hohmann & Reyes
played you'd see that Hohmann is no Reyes.


Plus if he was to take on anyone heads up, who can you say would be a lock to beat him?[/QUOTE]
 
This is, in some ways, a very difficult debate.

If the question is "of those that remain stars of pool, who has the best playing resume?", the debate really comes down to two players, Reyes and Souquet. I'll leave out the credentials of Reyes as they are so well known, but Souquet's absolutely dominant career is sometimes overlooked because Ralf is such a low-key pool superstar. Did you realize that:

Ralf Souquet has won the World 9-Ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Sands Regency Reno 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the US Open 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the US Open 14.1 Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the BCA Open 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Derby City Classic 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Intl Challenge of Champions
Ralf Souquet has won the World Pool Masters

....and that ain't all!

Still, despite Ralf's absolutely incredible playing resume, I give the nod to Efren, who merits serious consideration as the best pool player of all time.

But what if the question is "who is the best right now?" That's a different question. If you look at performance just over the last few years, it's tough to make a case for anybody other than Thorsten Hohmann or Alex Pagulayan.

Pagulayan's recent accomplishments:

...second place in the 2002 US Open
...second place in the 2003 world pool championship
...third place at the 2004 BCA Open
...won the 2004 world pool championship
...won the 2005 US Open

Hohmann has accomplished this in recent times:

...won the 2003 world pool championship
...second place in the 2004 US Open
...won the 2005 BCA Open title
...dominated the straight pool event at the 2005 European Championships
...fifth place in the 2005 world pool championship
...won the 2006 Joss Tour Championship

No player, Efren and Ralf included, has recent credentials of this quality.

Guess what I'm saying is that "who is the best" can, in my opinion, have four reasonable answers: Reyes, Souquet, Hohmann, Pagulayan. Which one is it? ---- that's like choosing between four new Ferraris, for whichever one you choose, you've made a great choice.

Just for the record, I'm choosing Hohmann.
 
Its one pocket which separates Efren from the rest and I don't think Holmann, Souqet play it much. Alex does but doesn't have nearly as much experience as Efren.

I'd take Holmann over Efren in 14.1. Souqet maybe a tie. I've never seen Alex play 14.1 so I can't tell. Thorsten absolutely murdered the field in Europe last year though.

All of these guys play nine ball good enough that whoever is having a good week could beat the others, IMO.


I think a lot of people forget that Efren wasn't always known for being a great tourney guy- he had a number of second place finishes and doesn't have the nine ball record of world titles or US Opens like Earl and Johnny. Now that Sigel, Hall, Varner, Hopkins aren't out there in dead punch, things have gotten a little easier for him, even with all the young guns.
 
In case ....

You have forgotten or not seen Efren's accomplishments, here are his tournament wins:

* 2006 Derby City Classic One-Pocket Championship
* 2005 IPT King of the Hill
* 2005 Derby City Classic Master Of The Table
* 2005 Derby City Classic - One-Pocket Championship
* 2005 Derby City - 9-Ball Championship
* 2005 IPT King of the Hill 8-Ball Championship
* 2005 San Miguel Asian 9-Ball Tour Stop
* 2005 Japan Open
* 2004 Derby City Classic Master of the Table
* 2004 Derby City Classic One-Pocket
* 2004 World 8-Ball Championship
* 2003 Mid-Atlantic 9-Ball Championship
* 2003 Las Vegas 9-Ball Open
* 2002 Challenge of Champions
* 2002 World Pool League Champion
* 2001 World Pool League Champion
* 2001 IBC Tokyo 9-Ball Championship
* 2001 Color of Money II Challenge Match (Reyes vs Earl Strickland)
* 2001 Masters 9-Ball Championship
* 2000 U.S. Open One-Pocket Championship
* 1999 ESPN Ultimate 9-Ball Challenge
* 1999 ESPN Ultimate Shootout
* 1999 Victor Chandler World Pool Championship
* 1999 Derby City Classic - One Pocket Championship
* 1999 Derby City Classic Master of the Table
* 1999 Sands Regency Open 29 9-Ball Championship
* 1999 World 9-Ball Championship
* 1998 World 8-Ball Championship
* 1998 Camel South Jersey 10-Ball Open
* 1997 PCA Shooters Challenge
* 1997 PCA Treasure Island Resort Event
* 1996 The Color of Money 9-Ball Champion (Reyes vs Earl Strickland)
* 1996 PBT World 8-Ball Championship
* 1996 PBT Legends of 9-Ball Championship
* 1996 PBT Western Open
* 1996 PBT Florida Flare Up III
* 1995 Sands Regency Open 21 9-Ball Championship
* 1995 PBT World 8 Ball Championship
* 1995 Pro Tour Championship 9-Ball
* 1994 U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship
* 1994 PBT Bicycle Club Invitational
* 1992 International 8-Ball Classic
* 1992 World 9-Ball Open (Tokyo)
* 1990 World Cup (Taipei)
* 1988 PBA McDermott Masters 9-Ball
* 1986 Sands Regent 9-Ball Championship
* 1985 Sands Regent 9-Ball Championship
* 1985 Red's 9-Ball Open
* 1985 Tar Heel Open
* 1985 Willard's Open
 
Snapshot9 said:
You have forgotten or not seen Efren's accomplishments, here are his tournament wins:

* 2006 Derby City Classic One-Pocket Championship
* 2005 IPT King of the Hill
* 2005 Derby City Classic Master Of The Table
* 2005 Derby City Classic - One-Pocket Championship
* 2005 Derby City - 9-Ball Championship
* 2005 IPT King of the Hill 8-Ball Championship
* 2005 San Miguel Asian 9-Ball Tour Stop
* 2005 Japan Open
* 2004 Derby City Classic Master of the Table
* 2004 Derby City Classic One-Pocket
* 2004 World 8-Ball Championship
* 2003 Mid-Atlantic 9-Ball Championship
* 2003 Las Vegas 9-Ball Open
* 2002 Challenge of Champions
* 2002 World Pool League Champion
* 2001 World Pool League Champion
* 2001 IBC Tokyo 9-Ball Championship
* 2001 Color of Money II Challenge Match (Reyes vs Earl Strickland)
* 2001 Masters 9-Ball Championship
* 2000 U.S. Open One-Pocket Championship
* 1999 ESPN Ultimate 9-Ball Challenge
* 1999 ESPN Ultimate Shootout
* 1999 Victor Chandler World Pool Championship
* 1999 Derby City Classic - One Pocket Championship
* 1999 Derby City Classic Master of the Table
* 1999 Sands Regency Open 29 9-Ball Championship
* 1999 World 9-Ball Championship
* 1998 World 8-Ball Championship
* 1998 Camel South Jersey 10-Ball Open
* 1997 PCA Shooters Challenge
* 1997 PCA Treasure Island Resort Event
* 1996 The Color of Money 9-Ball Champion (Reyes vs Earl Strickland)
* 1996 PBT World 8-Ball Championship
* 1996 PBT Legends of 9-Ball Championship
* 1996 PBT Western Open
* 1996 PBT Florida Flare Up III
* 1995 Sands Regency Open 21 9-Ball Championship
* 1995 PBT World 8 Ball Championship
* 1995 Pro Tour Championship 9-Ball
* 1994 U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship
* 1994 PBT Bicycle Club Invitational
* 1992 International 8-Ball Classic
* 1992 World 9-Ball Open (Tokyo)
* 1990 World Cup (Taipei)
* 1988 PBA McDermott Masters 9-Ball
* 1986 Sands Regent 9-Ball Championship
* 1985 Sands Regent 9-Ball Championship
* 1985 Red's 9-Ball Open
* 1985 Tar Heel Open
* 1985 Willard's Open
Click to expand...

Thanks for the list, which will prove as immortal as Efren himself. We are all very lucky to have had the pleasure of watching Efren's career close up. So good for so long, as your list evidences.

FYI, DCC Master of the Table is not a tournament, just a cash bonus that comes for each year's best overall performer at the DCC.
 
sjm said:
Thanks for the list, which will prove as immortal as Efren himself. We are all very lucky to have had the pleasure of watching Efren's career close up. So good for so long, as your list evidences.

FYI, DCC Master of the Table is not a tournament, just a cash bonus that comes for each year's best overall performer at the DCC.
Click to expand...

Given that Master of the Table is an award for the best all-around performance then it certainly belongs in this conversation and on the list of accomplishments.

This list doesn't include the numerous second and third place finishes that Efren has accumulated in his life as well.

John
 
StormHotRod300 said:
And after seeing or hearing about Hohmann winning many many tournaments in a very dominating fashion, i am curious if he has the Best all around game in pool.
Click to expand...

I think he's a great player, but IMO, he can't even be mentioned in the same breath as Efren when considering best overall. That's not a knock on Hohmann, but it's simply a tribute to Efren. He's won the overall at the DCC every year he's been there except this year where he came in second by a hair.

For overall players other than Efren, I have to put Alex and Marlon above Hohmann. I'll sound like an ass, but I have trouble including tournament wins where the tables are entirely too easy for professional play to use as a judge on great play. That would include the BCA tournament, and many of the European events (Barry Hearn events). I've gotten too many reports from professionals complaining that the tables were entirely too easy and that some players who don't normally do as well on tougher equipment did well in the tournament(s).

So, I personally only judge the players on tournaments where I know the equipment was tough. Unfortunately, I don't see every event, so I can only look at events that have Diamond tables (several) or Olhausen Pros (like the Challenge of Champions).

Fred <~~~ IMO, of course
 
Hohmann is not on the radar screen when it comes to one-pocket, and I feel that alone disqualifies him from consideration as the top all-around player. Also, I don't know if Hohmann has won a major 8-ball tournament yet, though I don't doubt that he's capable of doing so.

I would have to place Pagulayan ahead of Hohmann in terms of better all-around player. He's already proven he's a force in 9ball, 8ball, and one-pocket. He's also no slouch in 14.1, considering he placed very well in this year's DCC straight pool challenge. I've also read (from WBM accounts) that he beat Schmidt in a straight-pool money game a few years back. However, I still feel that Hohmann is the better 14.1 player.

No one can beat Reyes in the all-around title. No one will ever come close in history's past or history's future. IMO.
 
Cornerman said:
So, I personally only judge the players on tournaments where I know the equipment was tough.
Click to expand...

I don't think that makes any sense at all. Would you speak more highly of a player that prevailed over an ordinary field on tight pocket tables than a player that won over the most elite possible fields on whatever equipment was in use? Playing conditions vary from event to event in most sports.

The true champions have the right to be called champions because they have shown the ability to prevail over the most elite international fields that the game has to offer. Although the IPT will soon change this, our sport has few events having elite international fields, and the fact is that, regardless of what playing conditions he faces, Hohmann has done his best against the toughest fields. Even at the WPC (a tight pocket event) this year, in which Hohmann competed with bronchitis, he still managed fifth, and if healthy, I believe he'd have won.

Manalo has not even reached the final of anything important yet, and doesn't have any credentials for inclusion in this kind of discussion. He's certainly a great player, possibly on the fringe of superstardom, but until he's hoisting trophies the way Hohmann does, he's not even in the discussion.
 
jsp said:
No one can beat Reyes in the all-around title. No one will ever come close in history's past or history's future. IMO.
Click to expand...

Tough as it is to tell what the future will bring, I'm inclined to agree in full.
 
I feel Corey Deuel and Manalo are at least as talented as Pagulayan and Hohmann. However, talent alone doesn't make a champion. I do think Manalo has the fiber though, and he'll soon add some of the major tournaments to his resume. Conjecture, but an educated one IMO.

For now, Hohmann and Pagulayan are undoubtedly the best all-around players *of this generation*. Wu's heading that way too.

However, neither of them would fare well against Reyes, Sigel, Varner, Souquet, or Archer in terms of all-around credentianls. FOR NOW!
 
sjm said:
I don't think that makes any sense at all. Would you speak more highly of a player that prevailed over an ordinary field on tight pocket tables than a player that won over the most elite possible fields on whatever equipment was in use? Playing conditions vary from event to event in most sports.
.
Click to expand...
Your question is loaded and misleading. So, no point in debating it.

It only has to make sense to me, since it's my opinion and how I view things. You obviously carry Thorsten in higher regard than I do.

Manalo has not even reached the final of anything important yet, and doesn't have any credentials for inclusion in this kind of discussion. .
Click to expand...
This anti-Manalo thing isn't pretty. Surely you realize that you're mistaken here. Never reached the final of anything important? The guy won the Reno Open and the NJ 14.1 last year. He won the World 8-ball the previous year. The fact that these are three different disciplines speaks directly to the original question.

Fred
 
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lewdo26 said:
However, neither of them would fare well against Reyes, Sigel, Varner, Souquet, or Archer in terms of all-around credentianls. FOR NOW!
Click to expand...
Good point! Time will tell. Efren has come out on top for over 20 years against strong fields. That is certainly, a huge accomplishment. Give Thorsten 20 years he may, or he may not, but he will most certainly get plenty more savvy between now and then. When it comes to pool, it is not who is the best, but who is the best today. Yesterday was Thorsten's day. Tomorrow belongs to...? That is what makes our great sport so exciting, for me anyway.

Tracy
 
Cornerman said:
Your question is loaded and misleading. So, no point in debating it.

It only has to make sense to me, since it's my opinion and how I view things. You obviously carry Thorsten in higher regard than I do.

This anti-Manalo thing isn't pretty. Surely you realize that you're mistaken here. Never reached the final of anything important? The guy won the Reno Open and the NJ 14.1 last year. He won the World 8-ball the previous year. The fact that these are three different disciplines speaks directly to the original question.

Fred
Click to expand...

Actually, I didn't realize Manalo won at Reno. I stand corrected. NJ 14.1 (which Hohmann has also won) is a small field invitational event. The world 8-ball championship is also an event lacking countless elite players. As you say, the quality of Hohmann's pedigree is a matter of opinon, but he must have an awfully impressive trophy case.

There is certainly merit to your point of view, Fred, and I'm trying to embrace it. When I thought your initial post over, there was a side of me that agreed with you. I thought about the fact that in golf, those that prevail on the toughest course are often the ones held in highest esteem.

But then it hit me. Golf is a sport that, more or less, brings the most elite together once a week. Every title won on the PGA is a very big deal, because winning over fileds consisting of nearly all of the world's greatest golfers is very difficult. If pool brought the most elite together once a week as golf does, I might be on the same page as you, attaching greater meaning to titles won under more difficult playing conditions.

Unfortunately, pool is a sport that brings the most elite together very rarely, perhaps half a dozen times a year, usually on loose equipment. It is probably because of this that I focus on the results of these events more than on anything else.

I, and I suspect you, believe that all professional events should be played on tight pocket tables, but it is a sad reality that even the most elite events do not embrace our views.

Anyway, Fred, I think I've learned something from our debate because it has caused me to further study the issue, so thanks for your insights. If I rubbed you the wrong way, I apologize.
 
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Its interesting that this thread came up, because I recently had a discussion with Luc Salvas about this topic. In his opinion Thorsten Hohmann is the best player in the world right now. He is just so steady and so consistent. Personally I am inclined to think Alex is ahead of Thorsten, but I don't play these guys.

In regards to Reyes, I don't know where I would put him. Luc told me he is not nearly the concern that he used to be. But thats not saying he is an easy draw. Players still groan when they draw him. But Reyes has created such a legend around himself, that even if he paralyzed half his body fans would still believe he is one of the top 3 players in the world. Im sure that Mosconi was considered the best long after he wasn't.

By the way Manalo was runner up in last years World 8 ball Championship. Reyes won it
 
Cameron Smith said:
Its interesting that this thread came up, because I recently had a discussion with Luc Salvas about this topic. In his opinion Thorsten Hohmann is the best player in the world right now. He is just so steady and so consistent. Personally I am inclined to think Alex is ahead of Thorsten, but I don't play these guys.

In regards to Reyes, I don't know where I would put him. Luc told me he is not nearly the concern that he used to be. But thats not saying he is an easy draw. Players still groan when they draw him. But Reyes has created such a legend around himself, that even if he paralyzed half his body fans would still believe he is one of the top 3 players in the world. Im sure that Mosconi was considered the best long after he wasn't.

By the way Manalo was runner up in last years World 8 ball Championship. Reyes won it
Click to expand...


I agree with you about how legendary players like Mosconi, Reyes, et al can intimidate good players. I've been told that at the 1966 World 14.1 Champonships Mosconi came out of retirement to play, he'd been pretty much retired for about 10 years and while still a very good player wasn't nearly as good as he was in his prime. Anyway, I heard that he won quite a few matches against top players by sheer intimidation. His opponents would choke and not really play their true game.

For the record I'll go with Thorsten Hohmann as the best right now. A close second would be Reyes, Pagulayan, Souquet, Archer. Corey Deuel Should be right up there, I just wish he'd his head back in the game.

Bobby
 
IMO I would have to put Hohmann just a small notch behind Reyes as an all around player. The reason for this is that I don't believe Hohmann plays much one pocket or rotation and I've never heard of him picking up a snooker cue, Efren on the other hand has pretty much played every game involving a cue and balls, many consider him the best rotation player on the planet. I think that once Efren retires Hohmann will certainly have to be considered the best all around active player and could very well go on to be considered one of the best all around players of all time.
 
funny how history repeats itself

When Jack Johnson was running over everyone and the Champion of everything in boxing There were always detractors People saying Ah he's not that good. Or he aint that good anymore, Or So an So could beat him if.... Johnson just proved it until he couldnt anymore and lived a great life until that time. Then when he got old the I told you so's would come out.....

Years from now they will still be talking about Efren and his shots and his matchups. Lets see if they remember Hohmann or a Souquet.
 
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