Thoughts on the Z² shaft.

[naji]

lol,

it's only bangers that complain about spinning the CB not enough, most top players are concerned with spinning the ball too much. 99% of the time, you simply don't need to put that much shit on the ball.

Hello thefonz,
I quoted part of your text above, i agree at times it is much better to shoot with no english, or just top and bottom, If you go out of line you might have to apply more english than you would normally do, especially if CB is far from OB and table cloth is not clean. Therefore, in order to be consistent player you have to know how your cue behaves at all possible 4000 shots on the table, which is why bangers try everything so they are ready if the situation/ the shot comes up. From your writing it seems that you do not play one pocket? Am i right?

 

[dr_dave]

No killer persuasive arguments. I used a z2 for several months and it was fine. Broke it, tried an OB2, and liked it a hair better, and have been using it for years. Would not cry if forced to go back.

If I could persuade you of anything, I would try to hammer home these tidbits:

- Most of it is down to personal preference, and a lot of that is formed by what you're used to.

- don't get bogged down in overthinking your equipment choices. You don't have to look for subtle physics justifications to use whatever feels right. "I like how it feels better" or "I hate how the other option feels" are good enough reasons... maybe the only ones that count.

- When considering whether some equipment decision is worth obsessing over or not, I use the 'laugh in his face' test:

Your opponent just missed a ball, and seems stunned. He gets up and tells you he missed because ___________ . Does that statement make sense to you, or do you laugh in his face? "I just missed because the inlays changed the balance" for example. Do you consider 11 vs. 13 millimeter a legit excuse for missing or not?

It's true that worry about something that feels wrong can get in your head and make you miss. But it's up to you to understand the difference between

"I missed because it felt funny and that affected my stroke"
vs
"I missed because some subtle interplay of tip physics kept my perfectly hit shot out of the pocket".

Good post.

The "physics" explanations are useful to help clear up misconceptions, but they sometimes are used for lame excuses.

It's the player that really matters ... not the cue. A great player can play well with any cue (as long as the tip is in reasonable condition). A not-so-great player won't play great with a "new" or "better" or "more expensive" cue (although, as you point out, the "mind" can be a powerful thing).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

With any decent built shaft that has a tip radius *within reason* and with which you enjoy playing with, you could be a either a ball banger or a world champion. Just how good depends on natural ability and work put in combined, certainly not the equipment. There isn't a shaft on the market which would limit a player as to how far he could progress with his game. Shafts don't pot balls and don't miss them either, players do.

Excellent post ... especially the last sentence.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

... the Z shaft is a designed purely for low deflection and enhanced spin ...

The "low cue ball deflection" (AKA "low squirt") part is true, but the "enhanced spin" part is mostly a bogus marketing claim; although, there are logical explanations for why some people think they get more spin with an LD shaft. For more info, see:

getting more spin with an LD shaft​

Also, LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages.

Regards,
Dave

 

[thefonz]

Hello thefonz,
I quoted part of your text above, i agree at times it is much better to shoot with no english, or just top and bottom, If you go out of line you might have to apply more english than you would normally do, especially if CB is far from OB and table cloth is not clean. Therefore, in order to be consistent player you have to know how your cue behaves at all possible 4000 shots on the table, which is why bangers try everything so they are ready if the situation/ the shot comes up. From your writing it seems that you do not play one pocket? Am i right?

i don't play one pocket, i doubt if i have the patience for it:grin: in regard to my post, i don't mean that no english is necessary, there just isn't much need to put more than a tip of it on the ball most of the time, and excessive use of it is probably what gets players out of line in the first place. as far as 4000 shots on a pool table go, i only know 13 of them.

 

[naji]

For me personally, I bought the Z2 because I love a bit of conical taper, and thinner shaft seems ideal for my fingers, feels great on my bridge hand As far as deflection and swerve characteristics are concerned, I'm not a slave to it, given time I can adapt to anything. Besides, nowadays I play more center ball than I ever did.

With any decent built shaft that has a tip radius *within reason* and with which you enjoy playing with, you could be a either a ball banger or a world champion. Just how good depends on natural ability and work put in combined, certainly not the equipment. There isn't a shaft on the market which would limit a player as to how far he could progress with his game. Shafts don't pot balls and don't miss them either, players do.

What do you mean by natural ability?

 

[336Robin]

English on the Ball

i don't mean that no english is necessary, there just isn't much need to put more than a tip of it on the ball most of the time,

Thefonz,
What youre saying here is quite interesting....a long time ago as a young man who hadnt had any pool lessons...I knew I had to figure out a way to get the ball to go places and I never ever cued the ball up at high right, low left etc....but I used to get my ball where it was supposed to go with such regularity it was scary.....I went for a lesson from a guy when I started back playing....now this guy could stomp me any day but he allowed me to just shoot so he could see what I could do....I got out on him 3 times straight.....so he knew I wasnt cueing the ball the same way he did and when he challenged me to do I couldnt but I could move my ball the way I had been doing it.

I look back now and see how differently my game has become and wonder whether or not he was right in forcing me to go outside of Nickel or dime radius on the ball.

Im sure I was lining up to center ball then at stroke I would adjust to half a tip or a tip out from Center at the appropriate English selection just very much closer to center that a lot of people do.

Im actually going to try converting back some to see if I would have been better left alone because I think going so far outside of Center produces the deadly beast deflection in large proportions and is what can potentially kill off a good game of pool when you dont know how to handle it.

Just another lovely day in paradise...

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

 

[SakuJack]

What do you mean by natural ability?

What do you think they mean by natural ability?

 

[naji]

What do you think they mean by natural ability?

I want the predator to tell me what he meant! It could be interpreted differently!

 

[desmocourtney]

Dave,

You say "there are logical explanations for why some people think they get more spin with an LD shaft.", but your link has little meat.

This comment, "Now, when comparing cues and/or tips, it is important that the actual tip offset is the same for both." stands out to me.

Its important if you are trying to teach a physics class, but much less important when selecting equipment and using said shaft to play the game.

I find my Tiger Pro-X shaft @11.75mm to have enhanced spin for a couple of reasons.

When I aim my shot with a tip of offset my perception is that I am much closer to center than what is needed with a larger tip. For me
this makes aiming easier, more natural and less likely to miscue or just misjudge my shot especially the more difficult shots down table, thin cuts, or any shot where I want to load up on spin.

Weather my actual tip to ball contact point is the same or not does not matter so much to me. What matters is making the ball in the hole and getting shape.

Another enhancement is my ability to allow for squirt is at a manageable level, leaving a few more brain cells available for other tasks, allowing a more confident stroke. If not for this, my ability to spin the cue ball and would be very limited on certain shots.

I think factors that are difficult to explain and quantify scientifically are too often minimized in relation to player performance, e.g. hit, feel, perception.

It may be the Indian and not the arrow, but if the Indian perceives his favorite arrow is easier to hit his prey, then he will be more successful.

Regards
Courtney

The "low cue ball deflection" (AKA "low squirt") part is true, but the "enhanced spin" part is mostly a bogus marketing claim; although, there are logical explanations for why some people think they get more spin with an LD shaft. For more info, see:

getting more spin with an LD shaft​

Also, LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The "low cue ball deflection" (AKA "low squirt") part is true, but the "enhanced spin" part is mostly a bogus marketing claim; although, there are logical explanations for why some people think they get more spin with an LD shaft. For more info, see:

getting more spin with an LD shaft​

Also, LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages.

Dave,

You say "there are logical explanations for why some people think they get more spin with an LD shaft.", but your link has little meat.

This comment, "Now, when comparing cues and/or tips, it is important that the actual tip offset is the same for both." stands out to me.

The "meat" (illustrations and further explanation) for that statement can be found here:

"tips" of English resource page​

Its important if you are trying to teach a physics class, but much less important when selecting equipment and using said shaft to play the game.

Again, the "physics" explanations aren't always meant to be advice for playing the game. Sometimes they just help explain the misconceptions and often-misleading marketing claims.

When I aim my shot with a tip of offset my perception is that I am much closer to center than what is needed with a larger tip.

That's my point exactly. It is a "perception" effect, not a "physics" effect.

For me this makes aiming easier, more natural and less likely to miscue or just misjudge my shot especially the more difficult shots down table, thin cuts, or any shot where I want to load up on spin.

Sounds good to me.

Weather my actual tip to ball contact point is the same or not does not matter so much to me. What matters is making the ball in the hole and getting shape.

Sounds good to me.

I think factors that are difficult to explain and quantify scientifically are too often minimized in relation to player performance, e.g. hit, feel, perception.

Good point. I agree that "physics" does not tell the whole story. Perception and psychology are critical factors at the table.

It may be the Indian and not the arrow, but if the Indian perceives his favorite arrow is easier to hit his prey, then he will be more successful.

I guess it depends how bad his "favorite" arrow is and how "mental" he is when he is using the better arrow. Regardless, I agree with your point.

Regards,
Dave

 

[toddgator]

My experience was a bit like the OP. I started out with a 314-2 and after playing with that for about a year and a half I decided to try out the z-2. Played with it for about 3-4 months and then went back to the 314-2.

For me the difference was mostly in the feel of the hit. I didn't miss more and my english wasn't over-exagerated with z-2 like a lot of the guys are talking about in this thread. It definitely required an adjustment, but for me that only meant spending an afternoon or two with it playing the ghost for a few hours to get it down. I really liked it initially and I played with it for a few months as my primary shaft and had as much success with it as before I switched. However, I don't remember why, but at some point I put the 314-2 back on to compare and I was blown away by how I liked the 314-2 better. When playing with the Z-2 I noticed that I had to stroke the CB a lot softer and depend on the english a lot more for shots from distance. When hitting the Z-2 with more than an average amount of power (draw shots being the most noticeable) it would feel almost like the shaft would strain and flex to the point it almost felt flimsy (imho). Switching back to the 314-2 I found I could use as much power as necessary when I needed it and the shaft still felt rock-solid. English and accuracy didn't suffer in going back to the 314-2 either so that's what I've been playing with for about the last 2 years.

 

[TomInFaribo]

When I was young I shot pretty strong and then gave the game up for 10 years or so. When I picked my cue back up I purchased I3 and I2 shafts (had McDermott already) and have Kamui softs on both and used a dime taper when I started playing again. I maintained the tips religiously.
My conclusions were: In the beginning,
I could not play as well with the 11.75 tip. It seemed like everything was magnified. Too much spin, too hard of hit, just no precise control. I would switch to the 12.75 tip and my control came instantly back and I could play pretty well. Other players and instructors I talked to seem to confirm this same thing. (Hence why lower end players hate the small shaft.) I then started to practice with the 11.75 (thinking in would tune my stroke and slight mishits) and then played my matches with the 12.75. Then started playing matches with the 11.75. But at times my control was off I would switch (in the middle of a match) to the 12.75 and my control was perfect again.
After a time I found I could switch back and forth and play the same with either shaft. My mishits and control was as perfect with the 11.75. Then I purchased another 11.75 in 30"
Now I play 3 nights a week and just use the 11.75, 30". I feel the smaller diameter tip/30" helps aiming on those long 9ft shots and I don't have a 30" 12.75 shaft. On a bar table I use the 12.75.
I'm surprised that no one here has quoted Platinum Billiards robo machine findings. Smaller tips have less deflection that larger tips and according to McDermott the longer length will increase deflection.
I've been thinking for the last 2 years that I sure would love to try a 12.25 as I think I would have the best of both worlds. Niel's post above confirms my thinking on this.
Dam Been thinking awhile about it and I Just talked myself into it and today ordered a Ikon2-5 12.3/30"
Now I'll know.

 

[Luther Blissett]

I play English 8 ball, which has a CB of 1.75". I break with a 13mm pool cue, my friend breaks with a 8mm snooker cue. We both use Kamui chalk, which coats the CB after each break. When I break, there's a highly visible great big fat chalk mark 13mm wide. When my friend breaks, he leaves a highly visibly but smaller 8mm mark on the CB.

We have used two CBs, and compared the marks they leave. The whole of each tip is imprinted on each ball. They are like craters on the moon.

Ah. I love the experimental approach here. ...Tell me though please, have you used a tip template to check that your tips have the same curvature?

IF they are the same size.

Reminded me of an old cinema advert which used to end with "...if you're drinking Bacardi.".

 

[JoshStodola]

Blade irons of billiards

I will use a golf analogy. The Predator Z2 shaft is like a set of blade irons (instead of cavity-backs). In the hands of a skilled player, they can produce monumental results. However, they will magnify any flaws you may have. A twitchy stroke will throw the cue ball in ways you never thought possible. I was downright amazed at the amount of spin and control I had with my Z2. It forced me to make aiming and stroke adjustments, which I did willfully because the benefits were clear. I just sold my Z2 and I miss it already, I am sure I will get another one as soon as my new custom cue is completed. Hope this helps!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Courtney:
...my perception is that I am much closer to center than what is needed with a larger tip...

Weather my actual tip to ball contact point is the same or not does not matter so much to me. What matters is making the ball in the hole and getting shape.

Knowing how things work can only improve your perception of them.

pj
chgo

 

[TheThaiger]

Knowing how things work can only improve your perception of them.

pj
chgo

That is meaningless.

 

[TheThaiger]

Ah. I love the experimental approach here. ...Tell me though please, have you used a tip template to check that your tips have the same curvature?

No, but I did solve the mystery of why I miscue a lot when I fiddled with my tip yesterday (stop sniggering).

The tip the cue came with was rock hard and pretty flat - no miscues at all.
I changed it for another that was rock hard and flat - no miscues.
Changed it for a Talisman layered, played with it until it flattened - no miscues.
Shaped it to a nice dome yesterday, thinking it'd help with draw, and miscue-city came roaring back into town.

Now I know why I miscue - my vast array of miracle cure tip tools are going in the bin. Flat tips are the way for me from now on.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Knowing how things work can only improve your perception of them.

pj
chgo

Thaig':
That is meaningless.

Don't hurt yourself trying to understand it. Even the simplest concepts aren't for everybody.

pj
chgo

 

[TheThaiger]

Don't hurt yourself trying to understand it. Even the simplest concepts aren't for everybody.

pj
chgo

It wasn't a simple concept, Parrot, it was a meaningless concept. Not your first meaningless concept, either...