There are already too damn many "stickys".
three foul technicality
- Thread starter enzo
- Start date
Danny,
After your post, I went to the gym and gave this a lot of thought. I have to thank you since this probably fueled me through three extra sets. I then went down to the poolroom and discussed it with a bunch of my friends. It actually took me a while to find a discenting opinion but I managed to do so which is really all I needed. One person whom I really respect did not agree with me and he made some fair points in his argument.
I'll start off by saying, I know how good you are. I have no interest in playing you, no interest in gambling my rent money. I'm aware you're one of the best players in the country. However, although that may be relevant to the issue, your pool prowess in comparison to mine doesn't do anything for your position in this debate. It does bring a spotlight to an issue and a resolution I don't agree with.
Regarding my initial words, I apologize. Perhaps I was a bit harsh. Your integrity, your honesty are not necessary attributes to being successful pool player which is really your bottom line - not mine. I have a job. I can afford to be virtuous because frankly, pool isn't my living. I have a freedom to cast an opinion because that opinion has no monetary value. If I win or lose because of this, I still get paid on Friday. So for you, this wasn't integrity. This was about winning and that's perfectly acceptable and understandable.
You brought up the necessity for more referees which leads us to an interesting point. There ARE problems with this ruling. In my opinion, common sense MUST prevail. You, as the incoming player, should be notified that you are on two fouls. If there was reason to believe you were not aware of this, you should not be subject to a loss of game for committing the third foul. However, you were aware of it. The inevitable argument racing through your mind even distracted you. Had this not been an issue, if you knew common sense would prevail, you would have been more focused for that shot.
Furthermore, I love this game as I'm sure you do too and this game has problems. Your actions in this matter and your posts here do little to serve the sport. You are a professional and you represent us. I really hope that our representatives can be as mindful, as charasmatic, as charming as the Derek Jeters, Michael Jordans, Eli Mannings of the world. Unfortunately, I can hope for it but I can't expect it and for that as well, I'm sorry.
I'd like to finish off by saying I do feel honored that you took the time to reply to my post and I hope that you continue to post on azb. There aren't very many players of your calibre here and it's a true treasure to have talent such as yours contributing.
Sorry Jude but u lost me with this, I accept your apolagy however your just another example of someone apolagizing for your rudeness. Honesty and integrity DO have alot to with how well I play. u were way out of line to accuse me of cheating. Yes u work for a living and I don't come on this forum and accuse u of trying to cheat at your place of work. Now that u talked to someone smarter than u (heaven forbid) I think u can see how wrong u were accusing me of cheating. You go by the gamblers common sense rule and I go by the tournaments rule hmm, I am glad I was able to help u with your work out.
I do want to say thanks Jude your right my posts here do very little to help the sport that is why I am going to quit posting on here cause there are too many people who accuse me of being a bad person or cheating not to mention the verbal abuse I received from MikeM and Woody, I don't need it and high blood pressure runs in my family so people like woody and Mike M are just getting me too worked up. It's just too insulting and they can hide behind their little computers and cal me names like John Shmidt did but in a boxing ring they might get pulverised for their sharp tongues arrogence. One minute your accusing me of cheating and or calling me a b#$%h and the next your honored that I post here - are yall by polar? Ohh and then there is the Harriman hate club that will join in with you. I do have my faults and I will be the first to admit it. Being dishonest or manipulating a rule so that I can win is not my style but I would not want to prove the haters their wrong about me. One of the female players on the womens tour was watching my match and saw what happened and walked away after she saw I was in control of the winning the match, I know what she was thinking but she had preconceived notions about me before this 3 foul controversy.
I beat her once in a tournament and later she told a friend of mine that she could not play her game cause she was scared that I was looking at her rear - I guess it's nice to have an excuse now u can say u got beat by a predator hun sarah.
As for Sam Diep conducting the interview "Don't worry Sam U wont find me following u down a dark alley OK." Thanks for waking me up Jude _ no need to reply to me on this one cause it will be a long time before I look at this forum again, I am not playing much pool as I once was and this is a total waste of my time. I know what Earl meant when he said I was'nt allway's like this they made me this way, there are just a few too many rotten eggs lurking on here wth their mean words I guess their to pitied and prayed for cause from my view it's hatred and evil to say that to me. I do think that MikeM and woody should understand it's not about being right so much as it is conducting yourself in a professional manner on this forum, if I were to continue to post here then I would be insulting myself. I do think that I have some insightful input but I think I will keep it to myself.
In closing I would like to say that I have respect for many of the posters on here and appreciate their kind words other than MikeM and Woody, I guess in the end I am just too thin skinned for az.
I noticed that some of the people who were bashing me earlier also -learned that I was playing by the rules suddenly said well there must be a problem with the rule cause it would pain them too much to learn that they were indeed wrong.
Some forum members can be happy now as I will not be posting here ever again, some people will cheer for this and be ecstatic - but others who are true students of the game will miss some of my input. Common sense tells me to treat others as I would want to be treated Woody and Mike M yall should be ashamed of yourselves u don't know me or what I am goin through yall are very mean people indeed - I hope for your sake that yall can do better than that and getter over your anger towards pros like myself who have posted words on here out of a true love for the game and not so much a big ego. Archer would not shake my hand when I beat him at the IPT - I was only playing by the rules, I have lost alot of respect for some of the judgmental people within the billiard industry but I have no regrets when it comes to any decisions I have made or things I have said involving pocket billiards or it's characters. I will miss the 14.1 section of this forum but hey oblah dee ohhw blahhdahh. (I am no longer on too)
Adios compadres and haters alike. This is the Springfield Rifle signing off.
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Enlighten me. I a guess I am another player that thinks that the game starts with the 1. Please elaborate.
Nevermind.... Wate of time.
Quotes from Danny H
"Maybe it was a bad move on my part." -Danny Harriman
"I probably should have said I'm on two" -Danny Harriman
Danny,
I apologized for the cheap shot after your first pm and I've edited that post. I called you one name and now you've called me 5 or 6. Time to move on.
Even you have problems with the way you handled yourself in that match. Don't be so surprised and defensive when others take issue with your behavior. Like it or not, you are an ambassador for this sport that I ALSO love. It's galling to me to see people act this way and then try to defend their actions. You knew you were on two and you could have gained more fans by admitting it and taking the loss.
Best of luck to you,
Mike...aka worthless Mike, scumsuck of the earth, punk, etc. etc.....
"Maybe it was a bad move on my part." -Danny Harriman
"I probably should have said I'm on two" -Danny Harriman
Danny,
I apologized for the cheap shot after your first pm and I've edited that post. I called you one name and now you've called me 5 or 6. Time to move on.
Even you have problems with the way you handled yourself in that match. Don't be so surprised and defensive when others take issue with your behavior. Like it or not, you are an ambassador for this sport that I ALSO love. It's galling to me to see people act this way and then try to defend their actions. You knew you were on two and you could have gained more fans by admitting it and taking the loss.
Best of luck to you,
Mike...aka worthless Mike, scumsuck of the earth, punk, etc. etc.....
The game of 9 ball starts with the cue ball in hand behind the head string.
According to the World Standard Rules for the game of 9 ball.
http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball
2.3 Legal Break Shot
The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) the cue ball begins in hand behind the head string; and
(b) if no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails, or the shot is a foul. (See Regulation 17, Open Break Requirements.)
17. Open Break Requirements
The tournament management may set additional requirements on the break shot on games that require an “open” break such as nine ball. For example, it may be required to drive three balls above the head string or pocket them.
According to the World Standard Rules for the game of 9 ball.
http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball
2.3 Legal Break Shot
The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) the cue ball begins in hand behind the head string; and
(b) if no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails, or the shot is a foul. (See Regulation 17, Open Break Requirements.)
17. Open Break Requirements
The tournament management may set additional requirements on the break shot on games that require an “open” break such as nine ball. For example, it may be required to drive three balls above the head string or pocket them.
And so would pool as a sport.
pj
chgo
LittleMonster
Banned
Jude-
While I appreciate and understand your point of view in this debate, I have to say that by using Danny as an example, you made a big mistake. Danny used the rules of the tournament to his advantage. Here you are quite clearly talking about a different set of rules... those of gambling.
While many would agree that it may be noble or more honorable to admit the foul in tournament play, the shooter is in no way obligated to do such. That is what a referee is for. Think about it. Had Danny stood up and say 'You never told me I was on two, but I knew it so I lose" people would have responded with "Wow! That was a classy/stand up thing to do because he didn't have to do it!"
Gambling and tournament play are two very different games. When gambling, there is always the possibility that a loss will lead to MORE play and MORE opportunities to recover losses/increas profits, etc.. With tournament play, you have 1 (sometimes 2) chances to advance toward that paycheck. There the rules are specific and referees are employed for that purpose - to enforce those rules. The players are not obligated to enforce the rules themsevles as they would be in a money match.
Just a thought.
When there is not a referee present I beleive it should be taken upon yourself to play on the honor system. That was not done imo. Although what Danny did was within the rules, it was not done with honor. Danny did what he thought was the right move and although it was within the rules I would not have handled it that way.
BVal
He traded respect (for him and for pool) for the cash. I hope it was enough.
pj
chgo
Danny was introduced as an example and not by me. My issue with this ruling, with how Danny handled this ruling is specific to this thread, to this example. Had it been John Schmidt, we would be talking about him. I am aware that there are people who follow Harriman's threads to chime in on everything he says and does. I'm not one of those people. As a rule, I don't deliberately argue or side with anybody on azb. I will be quick to agree and disagree with anyone here from topic to topic. Honestly, I have a short memory. Most of what I said about Danny's handling of the situation was serious but with the intent of some humor, admittedly, at his expense. I'll apologize again for that since I want to reiterate that there's really nothing personal.
Regarding the rule, I'll reiterate my point so that it's clear though I'm certain you'll be steadfast in your position as am I. The intention of the rule, the spirit of the rule is to make sure the incoming player is aware he can lose the game by fouling out. That's it. The people that worded WHEN a player should be informed were only concerned about this. Their intent was not to see players have arguments about proper notification when only seconds have passed between innings.
Danny brought up straight pool which is an excellent point. In professional 14.1, it's not uncommon to see a player's inning last several minutes (sometimes much more). This rule then becomes absolutely necessary for those circumstances. In this instance, I have to agree the incoming player must be informed just prior to their next turn.
In 9ball, the application of this rule is much different. Three-foul situations typically happen when the table is not runnable and turns at the table are very brief. I would venture to say, the overwhelming majority of three-foul situations fall into this catagory while a very small portion have an extended turn at the table just prior to the third attempt to make a legal hit. This is why notification at any point between the second and third attempts is considered acceptable by many players.
If you look closely at any game, not just pool, you can find a code of ethics - things you simply don't do no matter what the rules say. Sometimes these things are about sportsmanship and sometimes they're more technical. With the rules of 9ball constantly in flux, perhaps much of our code has been lost over the years. Perhaps this situation is illustration of that. I will say this, I don't see myself utilizing this rule and there is a signification segment of players who feel the same way.
My last post on az
konee-chi-wha, I had been thinking about my match with the Japanese opponent at the US open, if I was in the same position and I knew he did not speak english then I would have given him that particular game. A few posters called me names and were extremeley rude to me about this situation - jude said it was a sad day for pool (that is blowing it way out of porportion and not a funny joke at all but more of a sign of jealousy), I am sorry to say there are some mean people on this forum. They bring up criminal records from over ten yrs. ago and act as if they were not doing anything wrong? That is heartless. For the record Woody gave me a sincere apolagy - MikeM did'nt. It's no matter posting here is a waste of time for me, I played well at the Open considering the history I have had with the promoters of this event. I guess all of the people who think they have me figured who saw or heard about my 3 foul technicality are convinced now that their right about me.
When I was informed that I was on two it was not my shot, I told him that he must tell me I am on two when it's my shot and he nodded his head as if he understood me. The fact is he had no idea what I was saying as he spoke zero english, I was unaware of this. As I was trying to make an easy hit on a ball (I was not snookered) I thought to myself why did'nt he say I am on two like I informed him about when it was my shot and not his? I did not get a rail cause I was not focused on the shot. Regarding the rule in itself -it's a poor one in my view more of a gamblers rule but hey it's nine ball what can u say? eMy opponent said I win and I replied no you have not won cause u did not tell me I am on two when it was my shot. After I won the game I got the ref to explain the situation and Ken asked him do you speak english? This time he shook his head no, if I had to do it over again at that point only I would have surrendered the game. International competition can be tricky, the game was allready over and I was caught up in explaining the rule. Hey Mullyman if u know the player from Japan that I won against in the Open (maybe u could look it up) please tell him I apolagize as u owe me one ok. If he would not have nodded his head as if he understood that I am not on two untill it is my shot I would have given him the game. In closing hey jude take a sad song and make it better (my humor.)
Jude u might look at this from my end (being a straight pool player) and I understand about a different code of ethics according to what game your playing (9 brawl vs. 14.1.) I dislike comparing 9 ball towards 14.1 as I feel 14.1 is a much better game. The one major fact u overlook Jude is that I did warn him and he could not understand me. Yes I do think straight Pool is the game of Champions and maybe I do base all other games off of the rules of 14.1. But in case u think I use the fact he did not speak english as an excuse to win your sadly mistaken ('stinkin thinkin') and or spur of the moment jumping to conclusion thoughts from your end. If u and I are ever playing 9 ball or any otherr game for that matter, if u tell me I am on two when it is your shot AND I INFORM U THAT U MUST WARN ME of this WHEN IT'S MY SHOT AND NOT YOURS AND U SHAKE YOUR HEAD AS IF TO SAY I UNDERSTAND (I know u speak english) - I WOULD GIVE U THE SAME RESULT THAT THE JAPANESE PLAYER RECEIVED. Ohh and Jude if i ever get lost between the moon and New York City I'll look u up OK (your so smart with your fancy talk - not, but at least u did not stoop to the level of name calling.) I think if u will review this a little more Jude u will understand that it was a tricky situation and the language barrier was indeed a factor also saying it was a sad day for pool and all is not a very good attempt at humor but more a sign that u don't like me(your only 37 try not be so bitterly opinionated man. Again the only reason I regret the decision I made while competing against the player from Japan (if u read this forgive me as I don't know your name) is because I was unaware of the language barrier and for that reason I would have definiteley given u the game.
sighanorrah and Over and out, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
konee-chi-wha, I had been thinking about my match with the Japanese opponent at the US open, if I was in the same position and I knew he did not speak english then I would have given him that particular game. A few posters called me names and were extremeley rude to me about this situation - jude said it was a sad day for pool (that is blowing it way out of porportion and not a funny joke at all but more of a sign of jealousy), I am sorry to say there are some mean people on this forum. They bring up criminal records from over ten yrs. ago and act as if they were not doing anything wrong? That is heartless. For the record Woody gave me a sincere apolagy - MikeM did'nt. It's no matter posting here is a waste of time for me, I played well at the Open considering the history I have had with the promoters of this event. I guess all of the people who think they have me figured who saw or heard about my 3 foul technicality are convinced now that their right about me.
When I was informed that I was on two it was not my shot, I told him that he must tell me I am on two when it's my shot and he nodded his head as if he understood me. The fact is he had no idea what I was saying as he spoke zero english, I was unaware of this. As I was trying to make an easy hit on a ball (I was not snookered) I thought to myself why did'nt he say I am on two like I informed him about when it was my shot and not his? I did not get a rail cause I was not focused on the shot. Regarding the rule in itself -it's a poor one in my view more of a gamblers rule but hey it's nine ball what can u say? eMy opponent said I win and I replied no you have not won cause u did not tell me I am on two when it was my shot. After I won the game I got the ref to explain the situation and Ken asked him do you speak english? This time he shook his head no, if I had to do it over again at that point only I would have surrendered the game. International competition can be tricky, the game was allready over and I was caught up in explaining the rule. Hey Mullyman if u know the player from Japan that I won against in the Open (maybe u could look it up) please tell him I apolagize as u owe me one ok. If he would not have nodded his head as if he understood that I am not on two untill it is my shot I would have given him the game. In closing hey jude take a sad song and make it better (my humor.)
Jude u might look at this from my end (being a straight pool player) and I understand about a different code of ethics according to what game your playing (9 brawl vs. 14.1.) I dislike comparing 9 ball towards 14.1 as I feel 14.1 is a much better game. The one major fact u overlook Jude is that I did warn him and he could not understand me. Yes I do think straight Pool is the game of Champions and maybe I do base all other games off of the rules of 14.1. But in case u think I use the fact he did not speak english as an excuse to win your sadly mistaken ('stinkin thinkin') and or spur of the moment jumping to conclusion thoughts from your end. If u and I are ever playing 9 ball or any otherr game for that matter, if u tell me I am on two when it is your shot AND I INFORM U THAT U MUST WARN ME of this WHEN IT'S MY SHOT AND NOT YOURS AND U SHAKE YOUR HEAD AS IF TO SAY I UNDERSTAND (I know u speak english) - I WOULD GIVE U THE SAME RESULT THAT THE JAPANESE PLAYER RECEIVED. Ohh and Jude if i ever get lost between the moon and New York City I'll look u up OK (your so smart with your fancy talk - not, but at least u did not stoop to the level of name calling.) I think if u will review this a little more Jude u will understand that it was a tricky situation and the language barrier was indeed a factor also saying it was a sad day for pool and all is not a very good attempt at humor but more a sign that u don't like me(your only 37 try not be so bitterly opinionated man. Again the only reason I regret the decision I made while competing against the player from Japan (if u read this forgive me as I don't know your name) is because I was unaware of the language barrier and for that reason I would have definiteley given u the game.
sighanorrah and Over and out, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
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For the record
Danny,
I've apologized multiple times to you in our pm exchanges. I am sincerely sorry that I stooped to name calling. It was an attempt at humor and was mean-spirited.
The fact that you choose not to accept my apology because I won't back down from saying you were wrong, does not mean I was not sincere.
Mike
Danny,
I've apologized multiple times to you in our pm exchanges. I am sincerely sorry that I stooped to name calling. It was an attempt at humor and was mean-spirited.
The fact that you choose not to accept my apology because I won't back down from saying you were wrong, does not mean I was not sincere.
Mike
I think we've covered the three foul thing pretty thoroughly in this thread.
Danny's thing is kind of interesting. There's a total clash between what I would call the "Fan club" point of view, and the hyper competitive "tournament" point of view.
Once you sift through the name calling and apologies, there are excellent points on both sides. Different opinions are what makes AZ worth checking out.
Danny's thing is kind of interesting. There's a total clash between what I would call the "Fan club" point of view, and the hyper competitive "tournament" point of view.
Once you sift through the name calling and apologies, there are excellent points on both sides. Different opinions are what makes AZ worth checking out.
It's better to lose knowing you made the right choice than win deceptively or by relying on luck. Anybody who has studied the most basic philosophy knows this.
If you're sacrificing your honor for survival then you need to learn to live in a minimalistic fashion. If you're accustomed to the simplest of pleasures then you can live happily winning the occasional tournament. 15k a year is well within your reach and can support a pool player pretty easily in many cities throughout the US (especially near major airports). A studio apartment and using frequent flyer miles might be something to look into if you're currently using manipulation of rules and/or deception to win.
If you're sacrificing your honor for survival then you need to learn to live in a minimalistic fashion. If you're accustomed to the simplest of pleasures then you can live happily winning the occasional tournament. 15k a year is well within your reach and can support a pool player pretty easily in many cities throughout the US (especially near major airports). A studio apartment and using frequent flyer miles might be something to look into if you're currently using manipulation of rules and/or deception to win.
Official Apology to Danny Harriman
I too would like to formally apologize to Danny for anything I may have said or done that made you feel I was being "rude" to you. I know I can be a smart a$$ at times but I forget you don't know me that well.
As for the "chompin' at the bit," it's my job to report the facts. If I ask you about what happened, I'm just trying to find out what happened.
I have the utmost respect for your talent and abilities. I hate that I offended you and hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
Samm
I too would like to formally apologize to Danny for anything I may have said or done that made you feel I was being "rude" to you. I know I can be a smart a$$ at times but I forget you don't know me that well.
As for the "chompin' at the bit," it's my job to report the facts. If I ask you about what happened, I'm just trying to find out what happened.
I have the utmost respect for your talent and abilities. I hate that I offended you and hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
Samm