I agree with Scott. The Balance point would only affect the position of your grip if you were playing one handed.
Three problems with the grip of the cue, please help me.
- Thread starter Train1077
- Start date
Doesn't the balance point directly affect how much weight is on the bridge hand and the grip hand? It seems to me that affects the feel of the cue. BTW, I am one handed! . . .but, I shoot with a bridge that I made, which is very hand like. What I was trying to say was that weight on the grip hand is caused by cue weight and balance point. A forward weighted cue is putting less weight on the grip hand. A rear weighted cue more for the same cue weight. Wrap type affects the friction between your grip hand and the cue. At one time, I was having a problem with a linen wrapped cue sliding during my stroke when shooting. This would cause me to grip it tighter. 2 solutions existed. . .tighter grip or move grip closer to the balance point. Both stopped this unintensional slip stroke. Different wrap would have also helped, but at some cost. I did get this corrected, but now, I think I would like a slightly more rear weighted cue. This also matches the reccomendation of Willie Mosconi which was to grip 3 - 6" behind thee balance point. While not gospel, I do like a cue where I can grip naturally at this point.
Gripping the cue where your forearm falls perpendicular to the cuestick, when the tip is at the CB, is what allows you to accurately strike the CB exactly where you want...with a level cue. When you grip ahead or behind perpendicular, you take the chance of mis-stroking the CB slightly. I'm not saying it HAS to happen (everyone who knows me, knows I play slightly ahead of perpendicular myself...but I do not teach that way...and that's NOT what I taught you almost 20 years ago!), but it means there are more variables in the mix...making the eventual predictable outcome, much more difficult to predict, let alone repeat. No one is saying you cannot be successful your way. Almost every pro has some 'quirk' about their "process"...but they have practiced it (the bad habit) long enough, to make it successful for them. I'd rather practice something that is easy, accurate, and repeatable...and be able to learn it quickly, rather then spend years trying to perfect an odd/different process.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
What exactly is a slip stroke? I have heard 2 versions.
1 You slide your hand a few inches back on the cue as you stroke the final stroke.
2 You let the cue slip forward thru your hand as you contact the CB as if you are throwing it.
Either way what is the purpose?
It's number 1. As for the purpose, I can only give my opinion, which isn't worth much since I don't use it. I've tried it but found it harder to control and less consistent than a normal stroke. My grip hand is probably too sticky - maybe Mosconi used a lot of powder?
Say you want to bridge fairly close to the cue ball, say, 6 inches. With a short bridge like that you may find it awkward to grip far enough back to have a long follow through with a level cue. Slipping back allows the long follow through without changing your bridge length and keeps the stroke fairly level.
Just my opinion, which I don't hold with any confidence. It's not a style I would recommend trying to emulate. There have been some great slipstrokers, but many more that don't do it.
I can't figure what the advantage of a slip stroke is supposed to be or how in the heck it's accomplished. I've only personally seen one man who really knew how to do this and that was Allen Gillbert. He invited me to the ELKS Lodge? in North Hollywood were he was giving a lesson. After the lesson he looks at my cue which had a rubber grip and said "Take that damn thing off and learn the slip stroke." His only reason given was that all the Greats used it including Willie Hoppe.
When Gillbert stroked the ball his grip hand nearly left the cue on his back stroke.
Smooth Strokes to avoid hard Grip
I've been through with these kind of problem when i started to learn pool..time to time i was able to observe of what went wrong...first you must be confident with your shots, get comfortable with your strokes and aiming...have a very nice smooth flowing stroke so that you wont have to grip hard.
try to observe the stroke of Alex Pagulayan , Shane Van Boening, Antonio Gabica, Django bustamante,Xiaoting Pan, Jeffrey De Luna (Grip), it looks like Rock N Roll signs
...There strokes are nice and smooth with cue power..
Bout Long distance Draw shots this what i do..Chalked first,or sumtyms scuff your tip for better chalked retention just to avoid miscues...cue tip touch on the felt with follow through dont pull the cue quickly...(Alex Pagulayan stroke) because if i try to have a full swing stroke...the ball will surely Jump out the table, i've experimented that lots of times and i see the difference now:thumbup::thumbup:
But right now i'm looking for a shaft thats fits my game..less effort but gives you the cue power especially in draw shots..mostly im playing in a slow cloth table
I have three problems with the grip hand, I am hoping that some of you might be able to help me.
1. How to make the whip wrist action to generate cue power, draw, top and english. I am starting to think that I can't do it right, either I miss, my wrist becomes too loose in all directions or some of my fingers don't know if they should be on the cue to stabilize or what to do. How can I learn this wrist action?
2. I can't seem to find the right way to hold the cue. I've tried making a ring where I make a circle with mu thumb and index finger and taking a loose grip about the cue, I tried it making the ring with thumb and index and midle finger to making the circle thicker to make it more stable. I've tried bending my fingers, making a kind of basket for the cues to lie in, and a looot more variations. It look sooo easy when others play, they have a semi-open hand when the cue is in the back of the swing and they seem to close the hand around the cue when in the front of the swing where they are hitting the cb, but no one has been able to explain a good way that feels comfortable. Can someone help?
3. I can't seem to relax my grip hand when trying to use power to shoot. especially when making draw shots, I shoot low on the CB, and then when shooting a bit hard, I grip hard on the cue, pressing the tip doing, resulting in a shoveling jump shot of the table. I am actually almost an expert in this by now... How do you handle the instinct to grip the cue hard when shooting hard, I think it is all a mental thing, being nervous about making the cue fly out of the hand and God knows where it will fly...
I've been through with these kind of problem when i started to learn pool..time to time i was able to observe of what went wrong...first you must be confident with your shots, get comfortable with your strokes and aiming...have a very nice smooth flowing stroke so that you wont have to grip hard.
try to observe the stroke of Alex Pagulayan , Shane Van Boening, Antonio Gabica, Django bustamante,Xiaoting Pan, Jeffrey De Luna (Grip), it looks like Rock N Roll signs
...There strokes are nice and smooth with cue power..Bout Long distance Draw shots this what i do..Chalked first,or sumtyms scuff your tip for better chalked retention just to avoid miscues...
cue tip touch on the felt with follow through dont pull the cue quickly...(Alex Pagulayan stroke) because if i try to have a full swing stroke...the ball will surely Jump out the table, i've experimented that lots of times and i see the difference now:thumbup::thumbup:But right now i'm looking for a shaft thats fits my game..less effort but gives you the cue power especially in draw shots..mostly im playing in a slow cloth table
I remember reading a post on RSB years ago. The poster told his story of playing Mosconi in an exhibition and said that after the exhibition Mosconi showed him the slipstroke and advised that he use it in order to get more power or action on the cue ball.
You don't see many slipstrokes these days, but I did notice recently that Larry Nevel uses it. He holds the cue pretty far back to begin with, and slips two or three inches almost to the end of the cue.
Another reason for it, perhaps - it helps keeps your grip pretty loose. But it does seem like an unnecessary movement - you can have a loose grip without resorting to it.
snapping the wrist for power: It might look like players are whippy with the wrist but the power comes from the hand and fingers (extra power). If you keep a firm grip you will see the max pull back limit of your stroke. Your hand stops the cue form going any further back. This is the feel I like for my normal and medium power shots (hand stopping the back stroke), about 90% of all shot requirements. To get the extra power like drawing full table, I start removing fingers from the cue on my back stroke allowing for a longer stroke. I could only have index and thumb on the cue. Once I start the forward stroke I begin to tighten the fingers starting with the index-thumb and continue to pinky. This milking of the cue gives loads of extra power without moving the wrist or forcing the arm off line. Search some Ronnie O videos of him powering the cue. You will see a perfect example of this power stroke.
A tip on position play. Once you have this milking down, try it on full ball follow and draw shots. Stroke like you are lagging the cue ball without hitting the OB to your desired spot, now, when you stroke do that finger thing and it counters the contact. This improved my game a great deal for playing shape. Another way is to picture or place a mark on table and stroke like only shooting cue ball there, keep the same stroke speed and double the back stroke distance hit the OB and see how close the CB comes. This double distance helps counter reduction in CB speed after contact and puts it really close to your shape zone. Hope it makes sense.
A tip on position play. Once you have this milking down, try it on full ball follow and draw shots. Stroke like you are lagging the cue ball without hitting the OB to your desired spot, now, when you stroke do that finger thing and it counters the contact. This improved my game a great deal for playing shape. Another way is to picture or place a mark on table and stroke like only shooting cue ball there, keep the same stroke speed and double the back stroke distance hit the OB and see how close the CB comes. This double distance helps counter reduction in CB speed after contact and puts it really close to your shape zone. Hope it makes sense.
I've been reading this interesting thread and have one question. At what point in the stroke should your arm be perpendicular? I'm 6'1 and hold the cue almost at the very end. At most I have one finger just touching the wrap. I am starting to feel like I am holding the cue to far back.
Basically your forearm should be vertical when your tip is at the cue ball.
Exactly! On your forward stroke, your grip hand should be directly under your elbow when the tip makes contact with the cue ball.
Steve
This is the best description! Consistent, soft, grip.
When I started playing pool I held the cue with a DEATH GRIP. With no instruction, it took me much too long to figure out the best way to hold the cue.
Don’t loop the thumb and index finger thumb is straight and pointed straight down. And the "fancy" wrist action they were knocking, well it is not fancy at all it becomes natural when you stop death gripping the cue, and stop steering the dang thing.
Once you get that thumb thing down it does wonders for alignment and stroke and helps the wrist break properly which is what it wants to do. That lose wrist is why you see good players barely hit the ball and do things other people have to put a ton of muscle power behind.
Like I stated in another post its kind of like baseball the greatest hitters of all time had great wrists so they didn't have to swing nearly as hard to attain that bat speed. This gives them more accuracy, and we call it “stroking the ball” in baseball too.
Once you get that wrist right , then get out of its way, and let it do its intended job amazing stuff happens, its one of the keys to the city in the game that leaps you way forward. As pool teach said and I’m not advocating the must use of the wrist technique its just another super advanced technique in the game.
Earl, effren, orcollo those guys play so good we need everything we can get to hopefully find that kind of mastery, its just another thing they perfected.
G.G.
Once you get that thumb thing down it does wonders for alignment and stroke and helps the wrist break properly which is what it wants to do. That lose wrist is why you see good players barely hit the ball and do things other people have to put a ton of muscle power behind.
Like I stated in another post its kind of like baseball the greatest hitters of all time had great wrists so they didn't have to swing nearly as hard to attain that bat speed. This gives them more accuracy, and we call it “stroking the ball” in baseball too.
Once you get that wrist right , then get out of its way, and let it do its intended job amazing stuff happens, its one of the keys to the city in the game that leaps you way forward. As pool teach said and I’m not advocating the must use of the wrist technique its just another super advanced technique in the game.
Earl, effren, orcollo those guys play so good we need everything we can get to hopefully find that kind of mastery, its just another thing they perfected.
G.G.
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Stupid question. . .Why is this thread dominated with the statment that your elbow angle should be 90 degrees when the cue hits the cue ball?
When watching the smoother professional strokes, this angle is more like 80 degrees.
I will add that the grip trick which worked for me is to keep my thumb straight down. It helps keep my hand looser overall.
When watching the smoother professional strokes, this angle is more like 80 degrees.
I will add that the grip trick which worked for me is to keep my thumb straight down. It helps keep my hand looser overall.
When using a pendilum stroke, 90 degrees puts your grip hand at the bottom of the pendilum. If you look at a pendilum's motion, as it is moving back and forth, the bottom is also moving up and down. At the bottom (center) of the pendilum swing, the bottom of the pendilum is moving at it's most level path. If your grip hand is moving more level, your tip is also doing the same thing. So by being at 90 degrees when you contact the cue ball, your tip is moving more exactly straight forward than at any other point during your stroke.
Steve
Steve
I will agree, so long as opinions are formed on the dropped elbow based on your facts. With PROPER stance and position, it has no effect.
It's like swinging a bat with both hands, and then continuing the stroke with only one, two handed or one you don't need the bat anymore. There are two schools of thought on that but its accepted that it doesn't matter. Reason is the same...you already made contact anyway.
In regards to this, it matters solely on how the person is standing in relation to the shot. We can all agree you don't hit the ball on either side of that BELL CURVE (if anyone doesn't know what this is just hit me with a message, its easy to explain.) you make contact at the peak. No matter how hard/soft your hitting the ball.
Just like real estate is all about LOCATION,LOCATION,LOCATION, so is this and many games. When you do it correctly it all works together, leave one thing out and you got chaos whether minor or major.
G.G
It's like swinging a bat with both hands, and then continuing the stroke with only one, two handed or one you don't need the bat anymore. There are two schools of thought on that but its accepted that it doesn't matter. Reason is the same...you already made contact anyway.
In regards to this, it matters solely on how the person is standing in relation to the shot. We can all agree you don't hit the ball on either side of that BELL CURVE (if anyone doesn't know what this is just hit me with a message, its easy to explain.) you make contact at the peak. No matter how hard/soft your hitting the ball.
Just like real estate is all about LOCATION,LOCATION,LOCATION, so is this and many games. When you do it correctly it all works together, leave one thing out and you got chaos whether minor or major.
G.G
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