Tip Contact Time

Bob Jewett said:
I think this is very well explained in Ron Shepard's paper on pool physics. See item 9 at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm
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Most of this document is way over my head. I did find the following excerpt interesting...

"It will be assumed that the contact time is so short that the hand/skin/cuestick effects can be ignored. That is, at the very beginning of the contact time, the cue stick slows down and starts moving slower than the hand, and the skin begins to tighten, but by the time any significant extra force is exerted on the cue stick, the cue ball has already departed and lost contact with the cue tip."

Isn't this saying that if we can reduce the amount the stick slows at impact then our contact time would be longer? Keeping in mind if we increase contact time by 1 ms we have doubled it.

Ken
 
ENGLISH! said:
Hi Fran,

Please excuse me for the following.

Maybe there should be two (2) ask the instructor forums. One for beginners, intermediate, etc. & one for more advanced players. Personally I think it would be a good adea.

Fran, I agree with you. Elk Master tips are very soft & impregnated with chalk. I play at the miscue envelope very, very often. While my stroke is not like Efren's etc., my tempo is very much the same. Efren plays with 'milk duds', Elk Masters soaked in milk & then pressed.

There are different parameters for achieveing equal amounts of spin. One of the most important shot desires, at times, is a high ratio of spin to foward speed or momentum. I am of the opinion that a softer tip allows one to get a larger spin to foward speed ratio than a hard tip. That is not to say that a hard tip can not get as much or even more spin than a soft tip, but it is all about the ratio.

When spinning a tennis ball or a golf ball the contact time with the ball is important. That is why a loosely strung racket can more easily spin a tennis ball & that is one of the reasons why the older, softer covered golf balls spun more. Throwing a curve ball in baseball is similiar per contact time.

I know that the contact time is very short, approximately one(1) to two (2) thousandths of a second. That is why any increase can be so valuable. That being said, I do not think anyone should be focused on it other than when choosing what tip one wants on their cue & why.

When shooting a shot were one desires a high spin to foward speed ratio, our minds will convey what stroke to use if we can just keep our brain out of the way.

Sorry Fran. I did not mean to come off as lecturing as I know that you know all of this. I was merely expressing my humble opinion.

Best Regards & Merry Christmas,
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Actually, Rick, I don't know anything about tip contact time, so I find this all very helpful.

Thanks,
Fran
 
FranCrimi said:
Actually, Rick, I don't know anything about tip contact time, so I find this all very helpful.

Thanks,
Fran
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Fran,

You may not know the technical stuff, but you're a player, I bet you can 'feel' it & your subconscious 'understands' it.

Best Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Fran,

You may not know the technical stuff, but you're a player, I bet you can 'feel' it & your subconscious 'understands' it.

Best Regards,
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We all know what we feel Rick. That's kinda my point...to clarify what is real and what is imagined.

My years teaching golf showed me that in most cases a player's perception is not accurate. Very few people get it right. There are only a few people who realize this. Almost everyone thinks what they feel is what is right. They are wrong in most cases. ;)

Ken
 
One Pocket John said:
I dont use a cue with a hard tip or a cue with a metal joint. The cue ball seems to rocket off the tip before I have a chance to feel the weight of the cue ball. I need to feel the cue ball for as long as I can.
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Must we actually preface all of our posts on this forum with "I am not an instructor"? Can't I just use an acronym of it? IANAI? Heck, it's a palindrome as well, how cool?

John, you may feel like you are sensing the ball while you still have some control over it, but I wonder if that is possible. Even with the speed of sound waves in maple being up around 4000 feet per second, by the time your hand feels those waves 4 feet away from the tip, that ball is already sailing on its way.

Same as feeling the hit of a cue. You may surely feel the difference between cues, but you are not feeling the actual "ton" of hit as it occurs. All you can perceive is the history of that impact, a sort of "recording" of the event within the cue itself.


FWIW I have no scientific evidence of what Fran is claiming, but I think her observations deserve more careful thought. The impulse from the cue is a force-time integral (look at the image below). Even if the same amount of momentum is transferred with both soft and hard tips (same area under the curve), the much higher peak force with the hard tip may be enough to overcome the frictional force component from the chalk at large tip offsets, thereby leading to an increase in miscue potential.

Anyway, just a thought...
 

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Okie said:
We all know what we feel Rick. That's kinda my point...to clarify what is real and what is imagined.

My years teaching golf showed me that in most cases a player's perception is not accurate. Very few people get it right. There are only a few people who realize this. Almost everyone thinks what they feel is what is right. They are wrong in most cases. ;)

Ken
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Ken,

I 'think' I know what you are referring to in golf. I may be wrong. The golf swing is much more dynamic than the pool stroke with many more angles & positions. People also miscommunicate feel for belief. They may say I 'feel' that the club is .... but what they really mean is I believe the club is... Also one can not see behind one's back. Showing them on video is often eye opening for them.

You position the club for them where they 'believe' it is & they will rather quickly 'feel' the difference. I think most people would be able to 'feel' the difference between a well struck golf ball & a ball hit well out on the toe when hitting a newer hard golf ball with a blade 3 iron. (they'll see the difference as well)

Again just my humble opinion.

Best Regards,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Ken,

I 'think' I know what you are referring to in golf. I may be wrong. The golf swing is much more dynamic than the pool stroke with many more angles & positions. People also miscommunicate feel for belief. They may say I 'feel' that the club is .... but what they really mean is I believe the club is... Also one can not see behind one's back. Showing them on video is often eye opening for them.

You position the club for them where they 'believe' it is & they will rather quickly 'feel' the difference. I think most people would be able to 'feel' the difference between a well struck golf ball & a ball hit well out on the toe when hitting a newer hard golf ball with a blade 3 iron. (they'll see the difference as well)

Again just my humble opinion.

Best Regards,
Rick
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I said most cases for a reason. :thumbup:

Hitting it on the toe is about as obvious as a miscue. No mysteries there. Hitting a 3 iron with a 2 piece ball would be about like breaking with a phenolic tip. Again no mystery.

But quantifying the amount of time the tip is touching the cue ball is a bit of a mystery. I am willing to bet that our perceptions are no where near accurate.

Sloppy pockets' post is another example of where I had a misconception. The time it takes to feel the hit is long enough for the cue ball to have already left the station. I never thought of it that way.

Good stuff!

Ken
 
Okie said:
I said most cases for a reason. :thumbup:

Hitting it on the toe is about as obvious as a miscue. No mysteries there. Hitting a 3 iron with a 2 piece ball would be about like breaking with a phenolic tip. Again no mystery.

But quantifying the amount of time the tip is touching the cue ball is a bit of a mystery. I am willing to bet that our perceptions are no where near accurate.

Sloppy pockets' post is another example of where I had a misconception. The time it takes to feel the hit is long enough for the cue ball to have already left the station. I never thought of it that way.

Good stuff!

Ken
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Mr. Ken,

Sloppy Pockets info probably is very accurate. But I think it may be causeing confusion of two points. Even if one could feel the hit & contact time during a particular individual stroke, what good would it do for that shot? Nothing. One could not make any adjustments during that miniscue time frame.

However, we do 'feel' that shot & others & we build a data base for our subconscious mind to call upon for future shots. It is then, in the planning of the shot, practice strokes, & even during the actual stroke itself that our subconscious calls upon that data base of 'feel' to execute the shot as we intend. 'remember how it felt when you got that result & what you did to get that feeling & result, do it again.'

I know you know about recalling similiar golf shots that had good results & then duplicating them.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Best regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Ken,

Sloppy Pockets info probably is very accurate. But I think it may be causeing confusion of two points. Even if one could feel the hit & contact time during a particular individual stroke, what good would it do for that shot? Nothing. One could not make any adjustments during that miniscue time frame.

However, we do 'feel' that shot & others & we build a data base for our subconscious mind to call upon for future shots. It is then, in the planning of the shot, practice strokes, & even during the actual stroke itself that our subconscious calls upon that data base of 'feel' to execute the shot as we intend. 'remember how it felt when you got that result & what you did to get that feeling & result, do it again.'

I know you know about recalling similiar golf shots that had good results & then duplicating them.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Best regards,
Click to expand...

I think all you are saying is that feel is important. I would expand on that and say when push comes to shove that feel is ALL we have. If the pressure is on and you have not developed feel for a shot you will not perform that shot well.

What I hope to gain is a better conscious understand of what's happening in order to expedite the improvement in my feel.

Then again I might have completely misunderstood you ;)

Ken

p.s. Why call me Mr Ken? Does that mean you are annoyed? Kinda like when momma uses that middle name? :grin-square:
 
Okie said:
I think all you are saying is that feel is important. I would expand on that and say when push comes to shove that feel is ALL we have. If the pressure is on and you have not developed feel for a shot you will not perform that shot well.

What I hope to gain is a better conscious understand of what's happening in order to expedite the improvement in my feel.

Then again I might have completely misunderstood you ;)

Ken

p.s. Why call me Mr Ken? Does that mean you are annoyed? Kinda like when momma uses that middle name? :grin-square:
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Ken,

No, not annoyed at all, just being respectful, or at least I was. But since you invited me in, I'll now call you Kenny. Is that okay?:wink:

You are correct about what I think about 'feel'.

I have a conscious understanding with myself that I would rather trust my subconscious 'feel' & my 'mind' rather than trust my conscious knowledge of the physics etc. I never take out a slide rule or calculator to figure out how I want to play a shot. I just 'feel' it & trust that my mind will utilize all of the knowledge available to it. That does not mean that I do not think about a shot. It just means that I trust a combination of my physical assestment capabilties & then turn it over to my subconscious mind. It tells me, do this a bit or do that a bit.

If ever I try to force a shot into the pocket based on my knowledge & will it usually bobbles in the pocket.

That is why I am having trouble with CJ's TOI, for just that reason. I know that it works, but my mind is saying, what are you doing. 46 years is hard to overcome. Like he said, you know it is the right thing to do but your mind is not comfortable with it. It takes time & commitment. Actually he did not say that exactly, I guess I did.

Kenny:wink:, Good Luck on the journey that I believe we are all still on, some just a bit ahead of those on 'our' heels.

Can You Feel It, (that soft touch with a bit of spin)
I know you can.

Best Regards,
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Ken,

No, not annoyed at all, just being respectful, or at least I was. But since you invited me in, I'll now call you Kenny. Is that okay?:wink:

You are correct about what I think about 'feel'.

I have a conscious understanding with myself that I would rather trust my subconscious 'feel' & my 'mind' rather than trust my conscious knowledge of the physics etc. I never take out a slide rule or calculator to figure out how I want to play a shot. I just 'feel' it & trust that my mind will utilize all of the knowledge available to it. That does not mean that I do not think about a shot. It just means that I trust a combination of my physical assestment capabilties & then turn it over to my subconscious mind. It tells me, do this a bit or do that a bit.

If ever I try to force a shot into the pocket based on my knowledge & will it usually bobbles in the pocket.

That is why I am having trouble with CJ's TOI, for just that reason. I know that it works, but my mind is saying, what are you doing. 46 years is hard to overcome. Like he said, you know it is the right thing to do but your mind is not comfortable with it. It takes time & commitment. Actually he did not say that exactly, I guess I did.

Kenny:wink:, Good Luck on the journey that I believe we are all still on, some just a bit ahead of those on 'our' heels.

Can You Feel It, (that soft touch with a bit of spin)
I know you can.

Best Regards,
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You can call me anything you want as long as you call me for dinner! :p

We are in agreement about which mind to use. But I must look at it analytically before I can trust it.

I was telling my dad about this thread and he asked me if I was pulling a Bobby Clampett. This was his way of asking me if I was over thinking it. :D

It is my belief that my ability to "over think" a process then put it into my arsenal of subconscious weapons is a bonus!

Who knows...prolly just a psycho! lol

I am going to try and setup a stream tonight of me playing on a 9' diamond against another player. I need to test our new hardware at Joe's and I would like to see myself competing with another player instead of just practicing. If I get it setup I will link it here in case anyone needs something to help them sleep.

Ken
 
Ken...It wasn't your "question" I was answering...it was sparkle89's (I did, afterall, quote his post...not yours). The comment about learning something was also directed at sparkle89's post. So...I did add something constructive. Sorry you can't see it that way. Sad that you couldn't read that into sparkle89's post, and my answer to it. Again there was nothing disrespectful said to you, or anyone else.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Okie said:
You should proofread your posts before spewing Scott.

First you say my question means nothing. Then you say it might lead to a bit of enlightenment.

Did you have anything constructive to add?

Ken
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I think Ken may have said a lot more than just that, but then realized that it's just not worth it.
 
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@Fran thx Mylady :-) Hope you re doing well. Have a wonderful x-mas time!


@all (most of all)

Seems that it s all over now here on the board if it s about respect, being nicley and just being able to discuss in a civilized manner.
First it was more in other parts of AZB. But nowadays it s getting more and more annoying to run through some threads.

So many of knowledged guys, so many of ppl who just liked to help ppl, so many who often responsed to help...- they left already, and some tend to just post now from time to time-if they re very sure to net get bashed again for nothing.

Already noticed this also for me. Sometimes it s really a shame.


all may have a some nice xmas days and a happy new year.
 
Here is a link to a thread where the poster has video evidence of what we are discussing. A picture is worth 1000 words ;)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=233127

Thanks again to everyone's input here! It is appreciated. I have come up with some very interesting practice points and they seem to be very productive. Mainly to slow down the backstroke and shorten the follow through. Maybe shorten the follow through isnt quite accurate. I am trying to hold my upper arm in place more which shortens the follow through a bit.

Ken
 
If anyone would like to comment on my current state of performance I would surely appreciate it.

I recently added a machine dedicated to streaming in my practice room. This allows me to upload the stream on one and watch it on another computer connected to my tv. This works out very nicely because there is about a 5-10 second or so delay in the time it takes to display on the second computer. This gives me immediate feedback on how I stroked the last shot.

From this discussion, I decided to shorten my follow through. While watching myself play (as I play) has been very enlightening...and frustrating. I tend to drop my elbow on every shot and lift the tip sky ward during the follow through. Once I discovered this I immediately tried correcting it but I am having a heck of a time with it. If anyone has any ideas or short cuts, I would love to hear them!

http://www.justin.tv/0kie/videos

The video from 12/18 was the first one where I discovered the tip going skyward. I think I improved slightly over the last couple of days but dang it is hard to find the feel of the proper move....so far ;)

Ken
 
Okie said:
If anyone would like to comment on my current state of performance I would surely appreciate it.

I recently added a machine dedicated to streaming in my practice room. This allows me to upload the stream on one and watch it on another computer connected to my tv. This works out very nicely because there is about a 5-10 second or so delay in the time it takes to display on the second computer. This gives me immediate feedback on how I stroked the last shot.

From this discussion, I decided to shorten my follow through. While watching myself play (as I play) has been very enlightening...and frustrating. I tend to drop my elbow on every shot and lift the tip sky ward during the follow through. Once I discovered this I immediately tried correcting it but I am having a heck of a time with it. If anyone has any ideas or short cuts, I would love to hear them!

http://www.justin.tv/0kie/videos

The video from 12/18 was the first one where I discovered the tip going skyward. I think I improved slightly over the last couple of days but dang it is hard to find the feel of the proper move....so far ;)

Ken
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A big THANK YOU to Felix and ENGLISH! I appreciate your instruction!

Ken
 
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