Tip & Ivory Ferrule Cost?

manwon said:
I think some of these people, should send their cues to the Guy who advertises cue repair on eBay, where you send him you cue and he repairs and returns it. Everybody wants something for nothing, and they complain about what they get because many times it is not what they want. WAKE-UP YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, SO IF YOU GO WITH THE CHEAPEST DEAL YOU MAY NOT GET THE BEST WORK OR THE BEST PRICE IN THE LONG RUN, BUT YOU STILL GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.:D


Lets turn that around and say ...
You pay for what you get!
That would make me very happy.

I normaly charge $10 to retip using a Triangle or LePro.
To replace a ferrule I charge $15.
the cost of the Grice, LBM, or other common ferrule is included in that price.
Either my work is low quality (if you get what you pay for) or I am not getting paid what the work is work is really worth.
I would like to think the latter is true.

With all the materials available today I think Ivory is a poor choice as a ferrule.
I guess its main attraction is that it is expensive and everyone knows it is. "If it costs the most then it must be the best" is how many players look at equipment (god bless 'em).

At the risk of ticking off some cuemakers and repair techs let me offer this one example of pricing:
Ivor-X ferrules if bought in quanity cost within a buck or so as other more common ferrules.
They come drilled, threaded, and ready to be installed just like the others.
Go check what most cuemakers and repair techs charge to put one on your cue.


Willee
 
pdcue said:
So, what do you do for a living, and how much money do you make?
Dale

Dale, how is any of that relivent to what Macguy said.
It sounds to me like he hit a nerve and you are striking back.

I dont care what he does or how much he makes what he says makes sense to me.
Some people charge what the market will bear (think gasoline) and others charge what they think is a fair price.
Isnt that the American way?

If a person charges $15 labor to install a LBM ferrule and $35 or more labor to install an Ivory one how is that extra cost justified?
Dont people have the right to question that?
 
WilleeCue said:
At the risk of ticking off some cuemakers and repair techs let me offer this one example of pricing:
Ivor-X ferrules if bought in quanity cost within a buck or so as other more common ferrules.
They come drilled, threaded, and ready to be installed just like the others.
Go check what most cuemakers and repair techs charge to put one on your cue.


Willee

This really needs to be said, IVOR-X
Looks and hits absolutely nothing like Ivory. On a long shot it deflects 1/4 diamond more than melamine. Yes it stays clean but that's it and it's a lot to sacrifice in hit when deflection is a factor. I have tried it with a pad and without a pad and have chosen to not stock Ivor X at all. I think the developer of Ivor-X is on to something but it needs more refinement.
 
WilleeCue said:
Lets turn that around and say ...
You pay for what you get!
That would make me very happy.

I normaly charge $10 to retip using a Triangle or LePro.
To replace a ferrule I charge $15.
the cost of the Grice, LBM, or other common ferrule is included in that price.
Either my work is low quality (if you get what you pay for) or I am not getting paid what the work is work is really worth.
I would like to think the latter is true.

With all the materials available today I think Ivory is a poor choice as a ferrule.
I guess its main attraction is that it is expensive and everyone knows it is. "If it costs the most then it must be the best" is how many players look at equipment (god bless 'em).

At the risk of ticking off some cuemakers and repair techs let me offer this one example of pricing:
Ivor-X ferrules if bought in quanity cost within a buck or so as other more common ferrules.
They come drilled, threaded, and ready to be installed just like the others.
Go check what most cuemakers and repair techs charge to put one on your cue.


Willee

I agree and have said it many times before that I believe ivory to be a poor ferrule material. I always try to talk a customer out of using ivory for a ferrule but if they insist then I don't feel sorry for them and usually charge 65 to 75.00 for a ivory ferrule, pad, standard tip and clean and polish the shaft. I guarantee all of the repair work I do on a cue for life except ivory ferrules cracking. I charge 35.00 for all other ferrules and tip installations and guarantee the tips not to come off as long as there is life in them and against ferrule cracking forever.

Ivory is getting more rare so it is more expensive than in the past but still the mark-up is sort of high. This is especially true in inlays. In the old days when there was plenty of ivory anything made from it was expensive and nothing has changed to make it cheaper.

Dick
 
WilleeCue said:
If a person charges $15 labor to install a LBM ferrule and $35 or more labor to install an Ivory one how is that extra cost justified?
Dont people have the right to question that?
LBM is normally already drilled, tapped and threaded. On the other hand Ivory has to be faced, centerdrilled, drilled, tapped, and relief hole drilled and then a pad put on. I would put that at over double the work put in a normal LBM ferrule. Then there is the risk factor. Ivory can crack and that is $15 down the tubes. So the extra $20 for labor/risk is well justified. Yes they have the right to question why and now they have the answer.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
Cost of Repairs

WilleeCue said:
Lets turn that around and say ...
You pay for what you get!
That would make me very happy.

I normaly charge $10 to retip using a Triangle or LePro.
To replace a ferrule I charge $15.
the cost of the Grice, LBM, or other common ferrule is included in that price.
Either my work is low quality (if you get what you pay for) or I am not getting paid what the work is work is really worth.
I would like to think the latter is true.

With all the materials available today I think Ivory is a poor choice as a ferrule.
I guess its main attraction is that it is expensive and everyone knows it is. "If it costs the most then it must be the best" is how many players look at equipment (god bless 'em).

At the risk of ticking off some cuemakers and repair techs let me offer this one example of pricing:
Ivor-X ferrules if bought in quanity cost within a buck or so as other more common ferrules.
They come drilled, threaded, and ready to be installed just like the others.
Go check what most cuemakers and repair techs charge to put one on your cue.


Willee

Willie I paid $10.00 for a LePro tip 20 years ago. I paid $30.00 for an Aegis Ferrule 20 years ago.

I know that if you had to make a living as a cuemaker you would either starve to death or raise your prices.

If every Cuemaker/Repair person raised their prices commensurate with the price of gasoline think what the price would be.:eek:

My cost of doing business keeps going up but the price of my cue prices stay the same.:confused:

I am glad I don't do repair work. I can make as much doing nothing.
 
cueman said:
LBM is normally already drilled, tapped and threaded. On the other hand Ivory has to be faced, centerdrilled, drilled, tapped, and relief hole drilled and then a pad put on. I would put that at over double the work put in a normal LBM ferrule. Then there is the risk factor. Ivory can crack and that is $15 down the tubes. So the extra $20 for labor/risk is well justified. Yes they have the right to question why and now they have the answer.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

That is true Chris.
In the case for Ivory there is a risk when drilling and taping that it might crack. The pad of course takes extra time to install properly.
I think both you and Dick have justified the higher cost of an Ivory ferrule quite well.

To Arnot: There is one repair tech in this area that makes his living selling cues and doing repair work. I have not thought about that before.
I am away from home 5 months out of the year and had not thought about the impact I might have on his business.

Willee
 
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Arnot Wadsworth said:
If every Cuemaker/Repair person raised their prices commensurate with the price of gasoline think what the price would be.:eek:

Actually, if gasoline prices had raised at the same rate as inflation we'd be paying $5-6 a gallon, or at least that's what I read somewhere...lol.
 
cueman said:
LBM is normally already drilled, tapped and threaded. On the other hand Ivory has to be faced, centerdrilled, drilled, tapped, and relief hole drilled and then a pad put on. I would put that at over double the work put in a normal LBM ferrule. Then there is the risk factor. Ivory can crack and that is $15 down the tubes. So the extra $20 for labor/risk is well justified. Yes they have the right to question why and now they have the answer.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

Just to play devils advocate, the pre made ferrules are more expensive and If made from raw rod they are more difficult to drill then ivory and can crack as well although the material loss is negligible. It is not unusual to finish the ferrule only to have to replace it because it has a blemish or black specks or what ever in it, eating the extra labor. Also finishing ferrules such as Ivorine III or Melamine can be problematic and sometimes difficult to get a perfect blend to the shaft.

On the other hand doing an Ivory ferrule is a breeze, they cut down and finish beautifully for a perfect blend almost effortlessly and polish up to a very nice finish in a few seconds. As far as the cracking problem, even if 10% of them cracked (A really really high percent in my opinion) It may be more like one in a hundred, but using the 10% example I gave it would only add, if amortized, $1.50 to the average cost per job. All things being considered the standard ferrule should command a much higher labor cost then an Ivory ferrule.
 
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Arnot Wadsworth said:
I am glad I don't do repair work. I can make as much doing nothing.

That's a strange statement, simple repair work, tips ferrules, rewraps, etc., are the gravy of the cue business, easy money and a very good dollar per hour return. I don't know too many cue makers who would want to see all their repair work dry up.
 
macguy said:
That's a strange statement, simple repair work, tips ferrules, rewraps, etc., are the gravy of the cue business, easy money and a very good dollar per hour return. I don't know too many cue makers who would want to see all their repair work dry up.
Read this thread and you will understand why a lot of Cuemakers don't do repairs.

I don't make any money by stopping what I am doing. Setting up to do a tip - do the tip and then go back and set back up to what I was doing. Not to mention that I have lost the time talking to the customer, making an invoice and doing the bookwork involved for what --- $10.00. WOW!!!

Oh yes - we make invoices so we can pay our share of taxes, workman's comp, unemployment etc.

Did you hear the one about the Cuemaker who hit the lottery. When asked what he was going to do with all that money he replied: "I am just going to keep making cues until it is all gone" :)
 
WilleeCue said:
Dale, how is any of that relivent to what Macguy said.
It sounds to me like he hit a nerve and you are striking back.

I dont care what he does or how much he makes what he says makes sense to me.
Some people charge what the market will bear (think gasoline) and others charge what they think is a fair price.
Isnt that the American way?

If a person charges $15 labor to install a LBM ferrule and $35 or more labor to install an Ivory one how is that extra cost justified?
Dont people have the right to question that?

I think asking what he does for a living is relevant, although I agree with you on that how much he makes is irrelevant. There are a lot of things that go into SOME businesses that people just don't realize even if they have their own small business. There was a STEEP learning curve when I started mine.

While I may not have any more overhead than electricity and a little room in my garage, you may have 3 employees, federal and state taxes, an accountant, a lawyer, and a rental shop to pay for. My materials are probably going to cost a little more because I pay for much smaller quantities than you do, but other than that, all I have to pay for is my getting off the couch, scratching my A$$, and doing the work. You have to make sure your house, bills, and food for your wife and 7 kids are paid for.

*Note: This is all just an example, I'm sure that Willee's 7 kids are already paid for, and I think we all know that a wife is always a rental, she's never paid for.
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
Read this thread and you will understand why a lot of Cuemakers don't do repairs.

I don't make any money by stopping what I am doing. Setting up to do a tip - do the tip and then go back and set back up to what I was doing. Not to mention that I have lost the time talking to the customer, making an invoice and doing the bookwork involved for what --- $10.00. WOW!!!

Oh yes - we make invoices so we can pay our share of taxes, workman's comp, unemployment etc.

Did you hear the one about the Cuemaker who hit the lottery. When asked what he was going to do with all that money he replied: "I am just going to keep making cues until it is all gone" :)

That is just a personal business decision you have made but one I doubt many other cue makers share.
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
Read this thread and you will understand why a lot of Cuemakers don't do repairs.

I don't make any money by stopping what I am doing. Setting up to do a tip - do the tip and then go back and set back up to what I was doing. Not to mention that I have lost the time talking to the customer, making an invoice and doing the bookwork involved for what --- $10.00. WOW!!!

Oh yes - we make invoices so we can pay our share of taxes, workman's comp, unemployment etc.

Did you hear the one about the Cuemaker who hit the lottery. When asked what he was going to do with all that money he replied: "I am just going to keep making cues until it is all gone" :)
God forbid if you have a table in your house. They'd be test driving those tips then pick your brain.
One local established maker had a solution. He locked his gate and has an intercom and camera.
No walk-ins.
 
macguy said:
That's a strange statement, simple repair work, tips ferrules, rewraps, etc., are the gravy of the cue business, easy money and a very good dollar per hour return. I don't know too many cue makers who would want to see all their repair work dry up.
If you think it is such easy money why don't you invest upwards or $250,000.00 for equipment, wood inventory and supplies; work 7 years without a paycheck to pay off everything; and then come back after a year and tell all the cuemakers how you feel about cuemaking and cue repairs and prices?

Just for the record I have messed around with cues since 1956 and been a full time cuemaker since 1996. My perception sure did change after I actually build a few cues and got a handle on the real cost. :)

Dennis Searing put a tip on for me before I became a cuemaker and it took him almost an hour. He did the job right just like I do. If I remember correctly it cost me $40.00 and that was in 1993. I thought that was a lot of money at the time but I learned very quickly that you get what you pay for.

I have seen how some of these guys replace tips and I can promise you for the price they charge they have to work fast and loose. I would not let one of them the touch one of my cues.

In 1992 one of those guys cut off 1/4 inch of one of my ivory ferrules and then said he did not touch the ivory ferrule. The cue came with two matched shafts and now one shaft is longer then the other. I sold the cue at a huge loss.

He is still in business and the way he replaces a tip is to glue it on with superglue - walk over the the grinder and twist the shaft by hand until the tip is close to even with the ferrule - it it hits the ferrule - oh well! Then he walks over to the disc sander and shapes the tip. He is done in about one minute from start to finish. I asked him "how can you do that to a cue" He said for $10 bucks thats what you get.
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
If you think it is such easy money why don't you invest upwards or $250,000.00 for equipment, wood inventory and supplies; work 7 years without a paycheck to pay off everything; and then come back after a year and tell all the cuemakers how you feel about cuemaking and cue repairs and prices?

Just for the record I have messed around with cues since 1956 and been a full time cuemaker since 1996. My perception sure did change after I actually build a few cues and got a handle on the real cost. :)

Dennis Searing put a tip on for me before I became a cuemaker and it took him almost an hour. He did the job right just like I do. If I remember correctly it cost me $40.00 and that was in 1993. I thought that was a lot of money at the time but I learned very quickly that you get what you pay for.

I have seen how some of these guys replace tips and I can promise you for the price they charge they have to work fast and loose. I would not let one of them the touch one of my cues.

In 1992 one of those guys cut off 1/4 inch of one of my ivory ferrules and then said he did not touch the ivory ferrule. The cue came with two matched shafts and now one shaft is longer then the other. I sold the cue at a huge loss.

He is still in business and the way he replaces a tip is to glue it on with superglue - walk over the the grinder and twist the shaft by hand until the tip is close to even with the ferrule - it it hits the ferrule - oh well! Then he walks over to the disc sander and shapes the tip. He is done in about one minute from start to finish. I asked him "how can you do that to a cue" He said for $10 bucks thats what you get.


Are you OK? What ever prompted you to go into the cue business that you seem to hate so much, second only to the seeming disdain for your customers and everyone else in the trade? Like I said it is a business decision of yours not to do any repairs, but if the landscape is so covered with guys butchering cues maybe you should do repairs as a public since you are the only one who knows how to do them right.
 
macguy said:
Are you OK? What ever prompted you to go into the cue business that you seem to hate so much, second only to the seeming disdain for your customers and everyone else in the trade? Like I said it is a business decision of yours not to do any repairs, but if the landscape is so covered with guys butchering cues maybe you should do repairs as a public since you are the only one who knows how to do them right.

First lets look at this as a business, not a hobby. If you break down cost of materials, and time it takes to do the work, Sure it should cost less than 100 for Ivory ferrule and moori. But as with any business, you have to consider the costs to stay in business that aren't reflected in just one tip job. By this I mean having a nice stockpile of supplies, the proper equipment to do the job correctly, and how about the maintenence factor of keeping that equipment running. If you work out of your garage with one machine, I could see someone thinking of being lowball with there prices. What about the guy with the huge shop? You don't run those machines off hamster power....lol Some may disagree, but all I'm saying is there are many hidden costs to maintain a business in any industry!!

I live in a small city, People here don't think that 90 bucks to install an ivory ferrule and moori tip is an unfair price for something that they would have to send out and be without for awhile or have to do themselves.

I have also seen a lot of hacks out there, Nobody well known so don't give me any crap, For most people it is worth a few bucks more to have the job done right then to spend half only to have to pay triple that to have what the guy did repaired proplerly.... just my opinion.
 
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NineBallNut said:
First lets look at this as a business, not a hobby. If you break down cost of materials, and time it takes to do the work, Sure it should cost less than 100 for Ivory ferrule and moori. But as with any business, you have to consider the costs to stay in business that aren't reflected in just one tip job. By this I mean having a nice stockpile of supplies, the proper equipment to do the job correctly, and how about the maintenence factor of keeping that equipment running. If you work out of your garage with one machine, I could see someone thinking of being lowball with there prices. What about the guy with the huge shop? You don't run those machines off hamster power....lol Some may disagree, but all I'm saying is there are many hidden costs to maintain a business in any industry!!

I live in a small city, People here don't think that 90 bucks to install an ivory ferrule and moori tip is an unfair price for something that they would have to send out and be without for awhile or have to do themselves.

I have also seen a lot of hacks out there, Nobody well known so don't give me any crap, For most people it is worth a few bucks more to have the job done right then to spend half only to have to pay triple that to have what the guy did repaired proplerly.... just my opinion.


If you have a big shop you don't make a living off repairs they are more of a service that keeps you in touch with the local economy. Seems like you have a captive audience so why not stick it to them what else are they going to do. It's just a different business philosophy but not one I subscribe to.
 
macguy said:
If you have a big shop you don't make a living off repairs they are more of a service that keeps you in touch with the local economy. Seems like you have a captive audience so why not stick it to them what else are they going to do. It's just a different business philosophy but not one I subscribe to.

I really don't know what you are implying here. I was not implying that you pay for a shop with repairs. I was just implying that there are other things to consider when determining the price for services. As for sticking it to anyone, I in no way promote price gouging or anything else. Money makes the world go round, so prices will be based on local value for the service provided. That will never change.
 
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