Tips of english or stroke?

[JB Cases]

I don't know that much about him and giving away info, but I have talked to knowledgable people about his tutelage and the info he received. There was a group who picked up speed from Buddy and others. They include Archer, Dave Yeager, CJ Wiley and a few others that I'd have to think about.

I've just heard bits and pieces of the info by being in certain situations. Direct questions get the same results as talking to the Bilderbergers.

Best,
Mike

In fact the tidbit I am referring to has to do with Johnny referencing something about Buddy.

 

[duckie]

CTE Sucks !!!!!!!

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Ducky, the point of your picture is?

Let me state that I was up early and did not have any coffee, so I may be missing something.

 

[thefonz]

what's center ball?

i use a little english on everything, i don't think about it most of the time. i just apply it as a means to attain the cueball position i want. kinda like not having to think about how you walk (how quick your steps are, stride length, style of ambulation, etc)
center ball is too hard to hit consistantly.:thumbup:

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Now that is interesting, why is centerball to hard to hit consistently for you?

i use a little english on everything, i don't think about it most of the time. i just apply it as a means to attain the cueball position i want. kinda like not having to think about how you walk (how quick your steps are, stride length, style of ambulation, etc)
center ball is too hard to hit consistantly.:thumbup:

 

[thefonz]

Now that is interesting, why is centerball to hard to hit consistently for you?

i guess i consider it like golf, hitting the ball straight is hard to do, it's easier to shape the ball one direction or the other, that way you know what to expect. if you think about it you're trying to hit a spherical object with a small radius, with a point of impact probably no bigger than 1/6th of an inch depending on how your tip is shaped. if you drew a straight line along the vertical axis of the cueball and tried to play centerball shots along the axis, odds are you'll probably be off one side or the other more consistantly than being right in the middle of the line. if you set it up like a drill you'll probably be way more consistant, but in a match factoring in pressure, not making the same stroke all the time, having to make the ball, play position, it's a whole different ball game. a lot of people might think they're hitting center ball when the attempt to, but i doubt they actually are, otherwise long straight in shots would be easy, but for many they arent. but that's just my theory

 

[JB Cases]

Ducky, the point of your picture is?

Let me state that I was up early and did not have any coffee, so I may be missing something.

I think that the point of it is that you don't have to play well to draw a ball.

 

[Bambu]

i guess i consider it like golf, hitting the ball straight is hard to do, it's easier to shape the ball one direction or the other, that way you know what to expect. if you think about it you're trying to hit a spherical object with a small radius, with a point of impact probably no bigger than 1/6th of an inch depending on how your tip is shaped. if you drew a straight line along the vertical axis of the cueball and tried to play centerball shots along the axis, odds are you'll probably be off one side or the other more consistantly than being right in the middle of the line. if you set it up like a drill you'll probably be way more consistant, but in a match factoring in pressure, not making the same stroke all the time, having to make the ball, play position, it's a whole different ball game. a lot of people might think they're hitting center ball when the attempt to, but i doubt they actually are, otherwise long straight in shots would be easy, but for many they arent. but that's just my theory

I think alot of players shoot this way, and it does work to some degree. But what happens in time is the development of a left/right sort of syndrome. This can make your center ball stroke even worse because you neglected it. Draw shots get harder. No center ball also means you closed the door on routes between left and right. You cant always get away with that. You also dont feel the true weight of the ball because you spun it around or killed it off cushions for so long. Tough to judge true contact throw too if you eliminate it with spin so often.

 

[thefonz]

I think alot of players shoot this way, and it does work to some degree. But what happens in time is the development of a left/right sort of syndrome. This can make your center ball stroke even worse because you neglected it. Draw shots get harder. No center ball also means you closed the door on routes between left and right. You cant always get away with that. You also dont feel the true weight of the ball because you spun it around or killed it off cushions for so long. Tough to judge true contact throw too if you eliminate it with spin so often.

perhaps you're thinking that i spin the ball all over the place, if so that's not the case, i just dont hit center ball, most times just off center by about a 1/2 a tip, which really isn't going to zing the ball around, it's just more consistant for me, and it makes for better contact, the object ball is less prone to skidding or kicking if you apply a hair of running english on it.

 

[K.Mcphee]

It's all stroke I believe. To get to that level is pretty hard to do, so I'll just stick to doing things the hard way. Oh, well.:thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

Mike, just for the record, you can't get any more spin by swiping across the ball than with a straight stroke. Whatever stroke you employ, the maximum spin/speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tip and the ball. This is a function of the materials involved, and not of the type of stroke.

It's true that if you swipe across the cueball and, say, make contact at centerball, you're going to put a little bit of spin on the cueball. This is, sure enough, spin you wouldn't have produced with a centerball hit and a straight stroke. But that doesn't mean that if you make contact near the miscue limit (~ 1/2 ball radius) while swiping, you're going to get some extra spin. You'll either miscue or end up with the same amount of spin as you would have obtained by cueing right at the miscue limit with a straight stroke.
You can test this by plopping the cueball down on the headspot and driving it straight to the foot rail while attempting to impart maximum sidespin using both techniques. I think you'll find that the only thing the swiping does is to increase the difficulty of accurate tip placement.

Jim

Thanks, Jim for the well thought out post. You are one of the voices of sanity on this forum. The rest of us post with what we seem to think is happening in our games through feel and observation. The science is grounding and limits the tangents in discussions, but sometimes it's not complete in answering all of what we perceive.

A good example is studies done with the amount of time a cue tip contacts the cue ball. The evidence shows that the short time period limits the stroke to a small amount of spin applied to the cue ball. We may improve on this by examing the materials used and improve on the outcome by maximizing their efficiency.

Aye, there's the rub! Couldn't resist. Without information on what is the best mechanical way to actually stroke the cue, do we have a baseline for the science? We are only looking at the cue tip collision as we seem to understand general stroking methods. Can we actually say which technique is most efficient?

If Larry Nevel strokes a draw shot and an average pro does the same, what are the results? Are they both using the same stroke or is there a difference? What is this difference? Is it a way to overcome the accepted limitations of the COF and material functions through stroke manipulation? Or is it that Larry has learned to address the cue ball in a way that isn't traditionally taught and learned? Why is he able to develop such spin while 99.9% of the pool playing world scratches their heads.

This rambling post means well, but is raising more questions than I suspect we have answers. My purpose is not to upset the academia who put out such important information, but rather to stimulate the discussion to move into uncharted areas. My hearsay reports are from knowledgable, non-technical sources and personal research. I think moving away from traditional guidelines will improve our sport and push the envelope.

Best,
Mike

 

[cookie man]

Mike, I think there are many non-tradional strokes. They just aren't used alot but sure are fun to work with just in case you need to bring it.

 

[8JIM9]

Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

Over the years I've noticed that as the caliber of play rises, cue tip placement starts to occupy the center or base of the cue ball. With BHE or similar methods the stroke comes more into play while applying spin. Rarely do I see a top player on the edge of the cue ball unless they usually address it that way, ala Busty.

Please don't answer this post with a lesson on what the correct procedure is for imparting spin on the cue ball or why staying close to center is better. The question is meant to analyze and open a discussion on what we think we do versus what we really do or should look at doing. I have my own method, but would like to hear what others perceive they do.

Best,
Mike

Except on rare occasions, I don't use English to pocket balls. I do use a 1/2 tip of running English whenever possible to eliminate throw.
However, I do use exact tips of English when kicking, because of what I've read in "The Owner's Manual for the Complete Poolplayer". He explains how as little as 1/4 tip of English can change where the cueball hit the second rail by 3-4". That difference can make the difference between hitting or missing a kick. Since reading Jim Rydell's manual, I have become more of a system player and hence my control of the table has gotten much better.
8JIM9

 

[Mikjary]

Mike, I think there are many non-tradional strokes. They just aren't used alot but sure are fun to work with just in case you need to bring it.

I thought a liitle closer look at some of these strokes might help with the way we teach advanced cueing and to understand why we miss shots. I find on many of my misses it is not because of my aiming point, but because of throw, plus or minus. I can hit the exact same spot on the object ball and pocket it using a different stroke, spin or speed.

Some days are more fun than others. :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Except on rare occasions, I don't use English to pocket balls. I do use a 1/2 tip of running English whenever possible to eliminate throw.
However, I do use exact tips of English when kicking, because of what I've read in "The Owner's Manual for the Complete Poolplayer". He explains how as little as 1/4 tip of English can change where the cueball hit the second rail by 3-4". That difference can make the difference between hitting or missing a kick. Since reading Jim Rydell's manual, I have become more of a system player and hence my control of the table has gotten much better.
8JIM9

I use the idea of "tips of english", as a guideline for my kicks. It is a valuable tool for kicking, no doubt. The top players have shown us its value and you can't argue with success. I've tried to do it the traditional way, but I can't seem to get it to work.

I use it more as a guide and let my tip go where it needs to go. If I place it exactly at a "tip" on the cue ball, I have no idea where I'll send the cue ball and have to adjust my stroke. Unless it's a basic kick, I try not to let where I cue influence the direction I send the cue ball. My goal is to not think too much about what I'm doing. I'm not too good in the thinking department. I over think or get lazy. Either way, I'm a goner.

Best,
Mike

 

[8JIM9]

I use the idea of "tips of english", as a guideline for my kicks. It is a valuable tool for kicking, no doubt. The top players have shown us its value and you can't argue with success. I've tried to do it the traditional way, but I can't seem to get it to work.

I use it more as a guide and let my tip go where it needs to go. If I place it exactly at a "tip" on the cue ball, I have no idea where I'll send the cue ball and have to adjust my stroke. Unless it's a basic kick, I try not to let where I cue influence the direction I send the cue ball. My goal is to not think too much about what I'm doing. I'm not too good in the thinking department. I over think or get lazy. Either way, I'm a goner.

Best,
Mike

Mike,
The answers are in the manual.
8JIM9

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I get your golf analogy. Do you beleve your issues with center ball is an alignment issue? I know for myself that I always align left of center about a tip and I have been working hard to fix that.

i guess i consider it like golf, hitting the ball straight is hard to do, it's easier to shape the ball one direction or the other, that way you know what to expect. if you think about it you're trying to hit a spherical object with a small radius, with a point of impact probably no bigger than 1/6th of an inch depending on how your tip is shaped. if you drew a straight line along the vertical axis of the cueball and tried to play centerball shots along the axis, odds are you'll probably be off one side or the other more consistantly than being right in the middle of the line. if you set it up like a drill you'll probably be way more consistant, but in a match factoring in pressure, not making the same stroke all the time, having to make the ball, play position, it's a whole different ball game. a lot of people might think they're hitting center ball when the attempt to, but i doubt they actually are, otherwise long straight in shots would be easy, but for many they arent. but that's just my theory

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[3kushn]

I don't agree. I understand your point and on paper it seems like this would be true.

But the other day I did a simple experiment, and let me emphasize simple.

I put the ball as diagrammed and tried to spin it enough to hit near the first diamond.

CueTable Help

Using a fairly level cue and both backhand english and conventional shifted english it was difficult for me to hit the diamond with most shots ending up about halfway between the first and second diamonds. Except with elevation and a slower speed but that was essentially a gentle masse'

Using a swiping motion where I would start out addressing the ball with left and make the tip come across to the right I was able to hit below the first diamond consistently.

Based on this very simple and quick test I would say that swiping imparts more spin. Granted, this initial observation in an uncontrolled environment is not proof but it does make me think it's worth investigating. And unless Dr. Dave has a high speed video disproving it I will believe for the time being that swiping increases spin.

I think you should test these stroke techniques across the short rail to reduce the effects of such a long shot. Put the ball on the spot and see what it takes to get past a 3 diamonds spread.

 

[Mitchxout]

Except on rare occasions, I don't use English to pocket balls. I do use a 1/2 tip of running English whenever possible to eliminate throw.

Didn't you mean outside English to eliminate throw?

 

[Jal]

I don't agree. I understand your point and on paper it seems like this would be true.

But the other day I did a simple experiment, and let me emphasize simple.

I put the ball as diagrammed and tried to spin it enough to hit near the first diamond.

CueTable Help

Using a fairly level cue and both backhand english and conventional shifted english it was difficult for me to hit the diamond with most shots ending up about halfway between the first and second diamonds. Except with elevation and a slower speed but that was essentially a gentle masse'

Using a swiping motion where I would start out addressing the ball with left and make the tip come across to the right I was able to hit below the first diamond consistently.

Based on this very simple and quick test I would say that swiping imparts more spin. Granted, this initial observation in an uncontrolled environment is not proof but it does make me think it's worth investigating. And unless Dr. Dave has a high speed video disproving it I will believe for the time being that swiping increases spin.

Thanks John for posting these results. But I'll have to note that since you used the term "on paper," perhaps a carry over from the other dispute about you know what, your results are supplied "on paper" too. And they do seem to contradict Dr. Dave's film NVB.34, which he linked to earlier.

The basis of my statements is the belief that the maximum value of the coefficient of friction between tip and ball is essentially constant, and independent of tip dynamics, so to speak. I'd find it hard to give this up without clear and absolute proof. So I'll have to remain a bit skeptical until such is supplied. I think your test is certainly a valid way of going about it, but I, for one, would would like to see the following criteria satisfied. I don't know whether or not your test did so.

1. It should be confirmed that when using a straight stroke, one is cueing right at the miscue limit (e.g., using a vertically striped ball and checking the chalk mark afterward for a 1/2 ball offset...or thereabouts). One should be miscuing too with some frequency.

2. The cueball is arriving at the foot rail along a roughly perpendicular path, give or take a few degrees, of course.

3. It's not struck so hard that it may not be achieving natural roll before reaching the foot rail.

4. Preferably, the balls should traveling at roughly the same speed for those shots where a comparison is made. Although this may not be absolutely necessary, we don't want to add another variable to the list.

5. Maybe needless to say, the cueball should be struck at the same vertical offset, zero offset (i.e., no top or bottom spin initially) probably being the natural choice.

I think the issue is fairly important. If you feel the same and to the extent that you're inspired to do some filming at some point, I'd surely like to see the results. I'm sorry, but I can't do that myself. Thanks again for the feedback.

Jim