Tips of english or stroke?

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting observations that are offered here.

When aiming at the GB:
Efren strokes at the base of the CB rather than off center in anticipation of the english to be applied. So in order to effect the desired english, he must swipe straight up for top on the CB; swipe up to the left for left english on the CB; swipe up to the right for right english etc..

"Chris Bartrum" strokes from the left of the CB and swipes to the right of center CB to impart right english?

Swiping the CB is different than the traditional interpretation of BHE, but if the bridge doesn't move, then the swiping must be effected by an angular form of BHE not described hither to before...to me. Both work for me.:wink:

Or... am I missing something?

Thanks to this thread.:wink::thumbup:
 
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Mikjary

Droppin' a Fauci
Silver Member
Interesting observations that are offered here.

When aiming at the GB:
Efren strokes at the base of the CB rather than off center in anticipation of the english to be applied. So in order to effect the desired english, he must swipe straight up for top on the CB; swipe up to the left for left english on the CB; swipe up to the right for right english etc..

Archer strokes from the left of the CB and swipes to the right of center CB to impart right english?

Swiping the CB is different than the traditional interpretation of BHE, but if the bridge doesn't move, then the swiping must be effected by an angular form of BHE not described hither to before...to me. Both work for me.:wink:

Or... am I missing something?

Thanks to this thread.:wink::thumbup:

JB said his conversation with Archer was that he cues for english on the same side (left for left, etc.). That's what I've seen in the past. I'm not advocating using any one style of spinning the cue ball. I was just passing on my observations about how some players do it.

You bring up a good point. If you think about cueing at the bottom of the cue ball in practice strokes, your crossing stroke, BHE, etc., on the cue ball will be angled up on the actual final stroke. It's amazing how our brains learn to pocket balls no matter what we do to mess it up. :grin:

In one of our conversations, Gerry Kanov said he thinks we really don't realize where we are hitting the cue ball many times, right or wrong. Our bodies might run racks, but our minds supply the subtle differences from stroke to stroke. We think we are cueing in certain areas and our minds make slight changes as we stroke. Good or bad, the mind already knows how to make the ball. We just get in the way.

Best,
Mike
 

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, thanks for that info. How often do you use this technique? Every spin shot or only when you need bigger spin?...
Mike, just for the record, you can't get any more spin by swiping across the ball than with a straight stroke. Whatever stroke you employ, the maximum spin/speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tip and the ball. This is a function of the materials involved, and not of the type of stroke.

It's true that if you swipe across the cueball and, say, make contact at centerball, you're going to put a little bit of spin on the cueball. This is, sure enough, spin you wouldn't have produced with a centerball hit and a straight stroke. But that doesn't mean that if you make contact near the miscue limit (~ 1/2 ball radius) while swiping, you're going to get some extra spin. You'll either miscue or end up with the same amount of spin as you would have obtained by cueing right at the miscue limit with a straight stroke.

You can test this by plopping the cueball down on the headspot and driving it straight to the foot rail while attempting to impart maximum sidespin using both techniques. I think you'll find that the only thing the swiping does is to increase the difficulty of accurate tip placement.

Jim
 

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
Having watched Earl for the past few days who can spin a ball better than most anyone, I can say there's nothing magic in it. He does hit further outside on the CB than most people can without miscueing but there's no fairy dust center ball hit the makes the ball spin, or a swipe across the face (swoop). He just uses combination of BHE and FHE to gain his spin.

He also uses: "Tips of English" as his measurement.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB said his conversation with Archer was that he cues for english on the same side (left for left, etc.). That's what I've seen in the past. I'm not advocating using any one style of spinning the cue ball. I was just passing on my observations about how some players do it.

You bring up a good point. If you think about cueing at the bottom of the cue ball in practice strokes, your crossing stroke, BHE, etc., on the cue ball will be angled up on the actual final stroke. It's amazing how our brains learn to pocket balls no matter what we do to mess it up. :grin:

In one of our conversations, Gerry Kanov said he thinks we really don't realize where we are hitting the cue ball many times, right or wrong. Our bodies might run racks, but our minds supply the subtle differences from stroke to stroke. We think we are cueing in certain areas and our minds make slight changes as we stroke. Good or bad, the mind already knows how to make the ball. We just get in the way.

Best,
Mike

Sorry,
It was Chris and not Archer per cookie man.

"...,Chris Bartram has said on AZ that he lines up left for right hand english."
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Mike, just for the record, you can't get any more spin by swiping across the ball than with a straight stroke. Whatever stroke you employ, the maximum spin/speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tip and the ball. This is a function of the materials involved, and not of the type of stroke.

It's true that if you swipe across the cueball and, say, make contact at centerball, you're going to put a little bit of spin on the cueball. This is, sure enough, spin you wouldn't have produced with a centerball hit and a straight stroke. But that doesn't mean that if you make contact near the miscue limit (~ 1/2 ball radius) while swiping, you're going to get some extra spin. You'll either miscue or end up with the same amount of spin as you would have obtained by cueing right at the miscue limit with a straight stroke.

You can test this by plopping the cueball down on the headspot and driving it straight to the foot rail while attempting to impart maximum sidespin using both techniques. I think you'll find that the only thing the swiping does is to increase the difficulty of accurate tip placement.
Excellent post, Jim.

I agree 100%.

Regards,
Dave
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mike, just for the record, you can't get any more spin by swiping across the ball than with a straight stroke. Whatever stroke you employ, the maximum spin/speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tip and the ball. This is a function of the materials involved, and not of the type of stroke.

It's true that if you swipe across the cueball and, say, make contact at centerball, you're going to put a little bit of spin on the cueball. This is, sure enough, spin you wouldn't have produced with a centerball hit and a straight stroke. But that doesn't mean that if you make contact near the miscue limit (~ 1/2 ball radius) while swiping, you're going to get some extra spin. You'll either miscue or end up with the same amount of spin as you would have obtained by cueing right at the miscue limit with a straight stroke.

You can test this by plopping the cueball down on the headspot and driving it straight to the foot rail while attempting to impart maximum sidespin using both techniques. I think you'll find that the only thing the swiping does is to increase the difficulty of accurate tip placement.

Jim
I think if you can really understand what mike is saying and do your tests with the swiping stroke you might be surprised.
 

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Excellent post, Jim.

I agree 100%.

Regards,
Dave
Thank you Dr. Dave.

(....whew, I was pretty absolute with my assertions and it's always good to have some backup in such cases, particularly from you. :))

Jim
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you Dr. Dave.

(....whew, I was pretty absolute with my assertions and it's always good to have some backup in such cases, particularly from you. :))

Jim
Now, cue twisting, in addition to stroke swooping, has tremendous potential. Here's a demonstration:

If people want more information and demonstrations, see my stroke swoop resource page. Here's a quote from the page, concerning one advantage of swiping at the cue ball:

One possible advantage of the stroke-swoop method is the initial alignment is center-ball, which might be more comfortable for some people. With BHE, the pivot-before-stroke alignment can be disconcerting (because the final alignment looks crooked). However, it can be difficult to be consistent with a swooping stroke.​

Jim, FYI, I've added a quote of your excellent post, using the linking style Sean recently encouraged me to use.

Regards,
Dave
 

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
I borrowed a Rempe ball and played around last night and like Tom Mcgonagle says, it proved that max spin is achieved at about 1/2 tip off center. Shooting far off center gives more initial spin, but it wears off quickly. But the cue ball spins faster and longer when I cued smoothly at medium speed at about 1/2 tip off center. With this stroke, the cue ball takes off immediately after contacting the object ball without following the tangent line at all and the spin holds even after 3 or 4 rails so it gives a lot of interesting options for position. I believe this is how some great players such as Efren get so much spin with so little power. It took a LOT of practice to be able to do it consistently because the timing has to be perfect.

Like has benn discussed, I also line up all shots at the base of the cue ball and swipe across on the final stroke to get the spin I need.
For those who need proof, I'll post a video later.

Vic
 
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LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think if you can really understand what mike is saying and do your tests with the swiping stroke you might be surprised.

I agree with what you proffer. What posters are saying is not what you are. I think that what you are offereing up is that "swiping" is a lateral movement to get the cue tip out of the way of the intial contact with the CB so as not to impart any additional influence that may be caused by a rigid bridge and a straight stroke.

Shooting at the CB with extreme top english with a rigid bridge hand and a straight through stroke is different than using an open bridge and allowing the cue tip to glance up and out of the way of the hit - different force vectors.

I want to see "swiping" demonstrated.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Whereas JB is well known for inventing conversations with pros...

Well you sure turned into a great little stalker/troll. Again the next inevitable behavior of the troll who gets beaten on a forum is to begin to stalk the other side throughout the forums. So far you are acting exactly to script.

Imagine this. While you are sitting all alone with one hand in your pants I am out partying with the pros and playing with them and having a good time. I will caption some "wish you were here" pix for you......on second thought......too bad for you.

Me: living the dream being myself. Great for me.
You: Anonymous Troll Stalker. Sucks for you.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Mike, just for the record, you can't get any more spin by swiping across the ball than with a straight stroke. Whatever stroke you employ, the maximum spin/speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tip and the ball. This is a function of the materials involved, and not of the type of stroke.

It's true that if you swipe across the cueball and, say, make contact at centerball, you're going to put a little bit of spin on the cueball. This is, sure enough, spin you wouldn't have produced with a centerball hit and a straight stroke. But that doesn't mean that if you make contact near the miscue limit (~ 1/2 ball radius) while swiping, you're going to get some extra spin. You'll either miscue or end up with the same amount of spin as you would have obtained by cueing right at the miscue limit with a straight stroke.

You can test this by plopping the cueball down on the headspot and driving it straight to the foot rail while attempting to impart maximum sidespin using both techniques. I think you'll find that the only thing the swiping does is to increase the difficulty of accurate tip placement.

Jim

I don't agree. I understand your point and on paper it seems like this would be true.

But the other day I did a simple experiment, and let me emphasize simple.

I put the ball as diagrammed and tried to spin it enough to hit near the first diamond.

CueTable Help



Using a fairly level cue and both backhand english and conventional shifted english it was difficult for me to hit the diamond with most shots ending up about halfway between the first and second diamonds. Except with elevation and a slower speed but that was essentially a gentle masse'

Using a swiping motion where I would start out addressing the ball with left and make the tip come across to the right I was able to hit below the first diamond consistently.

Based on this very simple and quick test I would say that swiping imparts more spin. Granted, this initial observation in an uncontrolled environment is not proof but it does make me think it's worth investigating. And unless Dr. Dave has a high speed video disproving it I will believe for the time being that swiping increases spin.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Johnny is known to not give much info. away.

On Saturday Johnny and I were talking about several things and he was telling me about Efren's mannerisims and playing against him in the 90s and at one point I just said that we discuss aiming a lot on AZ and we discuss "unconventional" methods of aiming and asked him to tell me his thoughts on it. He told me exactly how he aims and why. He also shared another tidbit with me which I will save for another discussion concerning the bridge hand.

That little tip served me well last night when I was playing Pei Chen Tsai the former Women's World Champion. (little name drop there for you trollio)

:)
 

Mitchxout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So JA told you how he aims and why? Do we have to beg for forgiveness or what? Spill the beans!
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
So JA told you how he aims and why? Do we have to beg for forgiveness or what? Spill the beans!

I will do it later when I am back home and have had a little time to play around with what he told me. It's nothing that is earth-shattering. Something that I am certain the science guys would disagree with on some level and the "let the brain do it" guys would agree with.

This isn't the thread for it.
 

Mikjary

Droppin' a Fauci
Silver Member
Johnny is known to not give much info. away.

I don't know that much about him and giving away info, but I have talked to knowledgable people about his tutelage and the info he received. There was a group who picked up speed from Buddy and others. They include Archer, Dave Yeager, CJ Wiley and a few others that I'd have to think about.

I've just heard bits and pieces of the info by being in certain situations. Direct questions get the same results as talking to the Bilderbergers.

Best,
Mike
 
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