"Tips" of english

C

cigjonser

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When people describe using english and say they're using 2 "tips" of left or right, how much is that?

If it's 1 tip diameter then assuming a 13.5mm tip, 2 tips would be 20.25mm from center.

Since a cueball is 57.15mm in diameter (call it 57), half of that, which would be centerball, is at the 28.5mm mark. 2 tips would then be only 8.25mm from the edge of the ball. If miscue range starts at halfway between the center and the edge of the cueball that would put it at 14.25mm from the edge, so 2 tips would be a miscue.

I've heard people mention using 2.5 tips of english and (rarely) even 3, which means my definition of "tips" is obviously not the same as theirs, so what is the commonly used definition of a "tip" of english?
 
Real scientific term. My tip is 11.5 mm tops. Others are 12.3 or????????
 
Chalk up your cue real good, and hit the cue ball. Pick up the cue ball and look at the size of the chalk mark on the cue ball. That is the amount of tip that actually contacts the ball, and is generally used to measure tip distance from center when discussing spin.
Steve
 
Your tip contact is less than 3mm. I use "clicks" on my cueball. I have 4 up and 4 down. That's how I see it and I'm sticking to my story.....SPF=randyg
 
pooltchr said:
Chalk up your cue real good, and hit the cue ball. Pick up the cue ball and look at the size of the chalk mark on the cue ball. That is the amount of tip that actually contacts the ball, and is generally used to measure tip distance from center when discussing spin.
Steve
Click to expand...
good info there!!!two tips with a hard tip is a LOT of spin too
 
This is like all the aiming theories, I prefer to keep it simple. When judging spin I think in terms of: a little spin, maybe a scooch more, or right out on the edge. Or somewhere in between, whatever feels right.
 
cigjonser said:
When people describe using english and say they're using 2 "tips" of left or right, how much is that?

If it's 1 tip diameter then assuming a 13.5mm tip, 2 tips would be 20.25mm from center.

Since a cueball is 57.15mm in diameter (call it 57), half of that, which would be centerball, is at the 28.5mm mark. 2 tips would then be only 8.25mm from the edge of the ball. If miscue range starts at halfway between the center and the edge of the cueball that would put it at 14.25mm from the edge, so 2 tips would be a miscue.

I've heard people mention using 2.5 tips of english and (rarely) even 3, which means my definition of "tips" is obviously not the same as theirs, so what is the commonly used definition of a "tip" of english?
Click to expand...

Forget "tips" - it's a term that nobody agrees on and confuses everybody.

Look at the circle around a number on an object ball - it's about a half ball in width (halfway from center to edge on each side). That's about how far you can actually hit offcenter without miscueing.

When you're actually contacting the cue ball at the outer edge of this "safe zone" you're contacting near the inside edge of your tip, so most of your tip is outside the circle. The contact point on your tip starts at the tip's center (for centerball hits) and moves gradually out to the tip's edge as your tip moves out to the edge of the "safe zone" circle. This is one reason "tips" and other artificial measurements are misleading and confusing, and why it only makes sense to think of where you actually contact the cue ball.

Thinking of where you're actually contacting the cue ball within the "english safe zone" helps you to be more precise with your tip placement and also gives you a way to describe it precisely.

I like using the image of a clockface to describe which direction from center your tip is placed ("1 o'clock" = top right; "8 o'clock" = bottom left, etc.) and fractions or percentages of maximum to describe how far from centerball toward the edge of the safe zone circle. For instance, "maximum 3 o'clock english" = the righthand edge of the safe zone circle at the equator. "1/2 maximum 7:00 o'clock english" = draw with a little left english halfway to the safe zone circle's edge.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Forget "tips" - it's a term that nobody agrees on and confuses everybody.

Look at the circle around a number on an object ball - it's about a half ball in width (halfway from center to edge on each side). That's about how far you can actually hit offcenter without miscueing.

When you're actually contacting the cue ball at the outer edge of this "safe zone" you're contacting near the inside edge of your tip, so most of your tip is outside the circle. The contact point on your tip starts at the tip's center (for centerball hits) and moves gradually out to the tip's edge as your tip moves out to the edge of the "safe zone" circle. This is one reason "tips" and other artificial measurements are misleading and confusing, and why it only makes sense to think of where you actually contact the cue ball.

Thinking of where you're actually contacting the cue ball within the "english safe zone" helps you to be more precise with your tip placement and also gives you a way to describe it precisely.

I like using the image of a clockface to describe which direction from center your tip is placed ("1 o'clock" = top right; "8 o'clock" = bottom left, etc.) and fractions or percentages of maximum to describe how far from centerball toward the edge of the safe zone circle. For instance, "maximum 3 o'clock english" = the righthand edge of the safe zone circle at the equator. "1/2 maximum 7:00 o'clock english" = draw with a little left english halfway to the safe zone circle's edge.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
If the billiard world would just rid itself of the term "tips of english", I have it on good word that the price of a gallon of gas would drop to one good ol' american dollar, and 24 and 999/1000 cents a gallon. Yes, there is a connection (something to do with Bhutan, I'm told).

To go along with what Patrick said, since making actual tip contact at 1/2 the cueball's radius from center is just about the maximum you can get away with without muscuing, this can be termed 100% english, or 100% draw, or 100% follow, etc. Half as much would then be, hmmm..... 49.999999%, according to my calculator. It's not really that hard once you get the hang of it.

So forget about the environment, let's grab what belongs to us before the Chinese make real pigs of themselves.

Jim
 
cigjonser said:
When people describe using english and say they're using 2 "tips" of left or right, how much is that?

If it's 1 tip diameter then assuming a 13.5mm tip, 2 tips would be 20.25mm from center.

Since a cueball is 57.15mm in diameter (call it 57), half of that, which would be centerball, is at the 28.5mm mark. 2 tips would then be only 8.25mm from the edge of the ball. If miscue range starts at halfway between the center and the edge of the cueball that would put it at 14.25mm from the edge, so 2 tips would be a miscue.

I've heard people mention using 2.5 tips of english and (rarely) even 3, which means my definition of "tips" is obviously not the same as theirs, so what is the commonly used definition of a "tip" of english?
Click to expand...
put the cueball one diamond above the corner pocket on the short rail, aim at the same diamond across the table, add english until CB goes into corner. should be one tip.
 
pooltchr said:
Chalk up your cue real good, and hit the cue ball. Pick up the cue ball and look at the size of the chalk mark on the cue ball. That is the amount of tip that actually contacts the ball, and is generally used to measure tip distance from center when discussing spin.
Steve
Click to expand...

I don't think any definition of "tips of english" is used generally. Every time the topic comes up we hear different definitions of it. We should be promoting a term that's self explanatory, not one that we have to define over and over.

pj
chgo
 
People probably shouldn't use the term "felt" when talking about the cloth on the table either.....but they still do.

Steve
 
Actually, well-educated players define it the same way every time...1/8" or 3mm (the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patrick Johnson said:
I don't think any definition of "tips of english" is used generally. Every time the topic comes up we hear different definitions of it. We should be promoting a term that's self explanatory, not one that we have to define over and over.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
 
pooltchr said:
Chalk up your cue real good, and hit the cue ball. Pick up the cue ball and look at the size of the chalk mark on the cue ball. That is the amount of tip that actually contacts the ball, and is generally used to measure tip distance from center when discussing spin.
Steve
Click to expand...
Actually, this is used by a small minority of instructors. Further, it makes no real sense physically, and clouds the discussion. I'm surprised that anyone would adopt this way of thinking about spin.
 
Judging from the widely varied responses it looks like the definition of a "tip" is pretty arbitrary, so I'd like to propose one and maybe if everyone agrees on it then there won't be any more confusion.

Standard Tip of English: 1/4 of the distance from the center of the cue ball to the edge of the cue ball.

cueball-tips.gif


This way, the diameter of the physical tip won't be relevant; it will be dependent on the cue ball size, so it will also work for snooker, 3-rail, and oversized cue balls.

Also, most people are pretty good at determining halfway points, so the halfway point between the center and edge of the ball is two tips, which makes it easy to see. Half of that is one tip. At 2.5 tips the contact point is right at the edge of miscuing, so that is the maximum possible with a standard shaft size. (Someone with an 11mm shaft wouldn't be able to cue this far out because the contact point would then be in the red.)

Edit: A "tip" would still mean whatever people want it to mean, but when referring to a "standard tip" it means this.

What do you think?
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
Then why call it a "tip"?
Click to expand...

Well, it doesn't look like any of the current definitions rely on tip diameter as it is anyway, and there is a range of tip diameters out there. I think trying to define a standard based on a variable is counter-productive.

True, the cue ball size is a variable, but the definition is in terms of percent of the cue ball diameter, so it can be "locked" as it were at 25%, 50%, and 62.5% (1, 2, and 2.5 tips, respectively) of cue ball diameter.

Edit: Also, and mainly, because "tip" is the word I'm trying to define. Calling it something else would defeat the purpose.
 
Last edited:
Scott Lee said:
Actually, well-educated players define it the same way every time...1/8" or 3mm (the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB).
Click to expand...

The definition of "well-educated" isn't "those who agree with Cue-Tech's definition of tip-of-english", Scott. I know lots of well-educated players who have never heard of this definition and likely wouldn't agree with it. It's just not intuitive or self-explanatory, which a term like this needs to be.

Even after years and years of casual use and frequent discussion, there's simply no broad consensus for the definition of tip-of-english, and that's why it probably isn't the right term.

pj <- think we went through this with half-ball-hit
chgo
 
cigjonser said:
Well, it doesn't look like any of the current definitions rely on tip diameter as it is anyway, and there is a range of tip diameters out there. I think trying to define a standard based on a variable is counter-productive.

True, the cue ball size is a variable, but the definition is in terms of percent of the cue ball diameter, so it can be "locked" as it were at 25%, 50%, and 62.5% (1, 2, and 2.5 tips, respectively) of cue ball diameter.

Edit: Also, and mainly, because "tip" is the word I'm trying to define. Calling it something else would defeat the purpose.
Click to expand...

I think the purpose should be to find a term that sounds like what it means so it will come into common usage (so we can spend more time talking about english than about the words we use for it) - and using "tip" to mean something that can't be measured with a tip defeats that purpose.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think the purpose should be to find a term that sounds like what it means so it will come into common usage (so we can spend more time talking about english than about the words we use for it) - and using "tip" to mean something that can't be measured with a tip defeats that purpose.
Click to expand...

That is another valid route to take; however, the word "tip" is already widely accepted as a unit of measure. The problem is, that unit has not been standardized.

When you hear the word "inch" or "foot" you know the distance being referred to because it has been standardized. Since the word "tip" already exists and is used regularly, I think the best route to take is to standardize the distance it measures, if for no other reason than because words shouldn't have arbitrary meanings whenever possible, and especially not units of measure.

While creating a new term or appending to an existing one isn't a bad solution, it still leaves the word "tip" undefined.

And, what distance would the new term measure? Since that distance, whether it be a static or relative unit, would still have to be defined, why not just assign it to the existing term which is currently lacking a standard definition?
 
Patrick...I'm the one who came up with the 3mm/one-eighth inch description (almost 30 yrs ago), not Cue Tech. Anyone who takes the time to do what pooltcher suggested (shoot a shot, and notice the size of the chalk mark), will know what the size is. Just because someone doesn't 'agree' with it, doesn't change the facts.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patrick Johnson said:
The definition of "well-educated" isn't "those who agree with Cue-Tech's definition of tip-of-english", Scott. I know lots of well-educated players who have never heard of this definition and likely wouldn't agree with it. It's just not intuitive or self-explanatory, which a term like this needs to be.

Even after years and years of casual use and frequent discussion, there's simply no broad consensus for the definition of tip-of-english, and that's why it probably isn't the right term.

pj <- think we went through this with half-ball-hit
chgo
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top