To all maker's of cues-> Question

ridewiththewind said:
And it was answered. Perhaps not the answer you were looking for, but it was answered.

---> Patrick cues answered quite well and was on track. But no others have come close but to explain why not to answer.

Many makers here are not going to respond or entertain your query beyond a certain point...as many have come under attack here, many more have left, as a result. Count yourself lucky to have gotten the responses you have. To keep pushing the query until you hear what you want, may begin to be perceived as trolling.

Lisa ===> is familiar with the taste of shoe leather.

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---> This again, is not an attack on anyone. It's a friendly discussion in the forum concerning cue makers. Not sure how anything I have asked or discussed could be took as an attach , as I even refused to say names even when asked. It's a general question put out to all makers to answer as they will and explain their thoughts on the matter. I believe it is others trying to turn it into this, not I.
 
You could also ask why you have to pay so much for a Trap shooting shot gun from one gun maker versus another ?
It is all about what people are prepared to pay for a product, and the customers own perceived value of the item they are buying.
There are cues where the cost of purchasing the raw materials to make it are in excess of $250 and no work to making a cue or shaft has been started.
Then you have to ask, do the cues with very high dollar materials hit the same as cues built of cheaper materials? The answer is no. Is the more expensive material better ? The answer is some will definately think it is better, some and others will not like it at all.
I do not think you will get two different makers product hitting and performing exactly the same, because their will be differences somewhere that each thinks is an important factor . Not everybody does everything exactly the same, very similar for sure, but not the same.
 
danieldakota53 said:
---> This again, is not an attack on anyone. It's a friendly discussion in the forum concerning cue makers. Not sure how anything I have asked or discussed could be took as an attach , as I even refused to say names even when asked. It's a general question put out to all makers to answer as they will and explain their thoughts on the matter. I believe it is others trying to turn it into this, not I.
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I did not accuse you of attacking. This is one of the issues with internet forums...reading comprehension often goes out the window.

Every maker has a philosophy of why and how they craft cues, who their target customer is, and pricing. Most do it for the love of it...as very very few, if any, are getting rich off of it. Those with the greater positive reputations, get more orders....more orders means less available cues in the pipeline, creating more demand....more demand equates to higher asking prices. It's more about supply and demand than anything else.

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Here is a link to a very good discussion among some of today's top cuemakers. While the main topic is about the direction of the future of cue design, they touch on the playability of each other's cues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdg36QHYJa8
In my mind, to summarize, they said "We each make a good playing cue", but "good playing" is a personal pool player's opinion.
They also touch on the fact that some of the subtleties in "good playing" are not appreciated by most pool players, but moreso by those with higher playing skills and more time on the tables.
Daniel, it is worth your time to watch and listen to the whole thing.
My 2 cents,
Gary
 
GBCues said:
Here is a link to a very good discussion among some of today's top cuemakers. While the main topic is about the direction of the future of cue design, they touch on the playability of each other's cues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdg36QHYJa8
In my mind, to summarize, they said "We each make a good playing cue", but "good playing" is a personal pool player's opinion.
They also touch on the fact that some of the subtleties in "good playing" are not appreciated by most pool players, but moreso by those with higher playing skills and more time on the tables.
Daniel, it is worth your time to watch and listen to the whole thing.
My 2 cents,
Gary
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Yes Gary, I have watched the round table a few times. I enjoyed Mr. Schick's discussion very much. Others not so much. And some it seemed really wanted and tried to speak and share their thoughts and ideas, but were not allowed to or were cut short or completely off from doing so. But was interesting yes.
 
danieldakota53 said:
I have tried to keep the thread on topic. It is others off on tangents that are taking it that way. As I have reminded several times, if 2 cue makers are equal in talent and skill, what makes one demand more money than the other. Very simple question I thought.
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Hi,

IMO, The answer is because one CM builds cues for his living and has factored in his time effort and investment into building the cue and demands a certain level of remuneration for his efforts. As any business needs to do!! This person is a professional CM.

The other CM is doubtless a part time practitioner and works for less that ten bucks an hour in many cases which makes it a satisfying hobby. Professionals must get paid to survive, others who pay their bills and living by having a job creates a false economy in cue making when compared to the professional. I am not saying that is a bad thing because it creates value for the cue buyer who want to get a cheap price for a cue. Also there are cases where the hobby guy could have better skills or insights than some pros. Harvey Martin being the greatest example of this as he worked a full time job his whole life.

Since building a quality cue takes a great deal of time and effort to do it correctly, if you do the math on cues that are nice but sell cheap at some point the answer is very clear. It is a labor of love for the cheap guy because he don't have to pay the rent building cues. It is like the guy who builds and restores a classic car and then sells it at auction only to find his endeavors to build a beautiful Hot Rod Custom lost him money and he worked for free for years of his life. That stuff happens a lot.

The final analysis judges any cue from a residual value in the secondary markets. Here is where the intrinsic value of the cue is judged by the market itself.

If a person buys a a cue for $7500.00 because he knows that the cue will appreciate over time that is his justification to buy the cue. The motivation is that he or she loves and appreciates a Cue Maker's work and loves to collect things they appreciate. Most people who can afford paying 7500.00 for a cue are usually very successful persons and understands what a good investment is in cues.

There is no right or wrong, only what is mutually beneficial between any buyer and seller weather it be a flipper or buying from the CM directly.

When you think of it, it is kinda crazy but it all does makes sense.

JMO,

Rick
 
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Since I am full of BS & lies, I offer an invitation to you. Come to my shop & I will build a cue with you being there every step of the way. For liability purposes I will not allow you to handle machinery or materials. You can handle the finished cue. But you'll be there for the entire build, every single step, doing things the way I do them. To sweeten the deal, you sell the cue for what I'd charge for the same cue, and you keep 100% of the profit.

The catch is that I want you to pay for the expenses incurred in building the cue, except for time/labor. Fuel, materials, material acquisition, material handling, adhesives, shop essentials (paper towels, etc.), utilities for duration of the build, and any unexpected maintenance that may be required to complete the job. Keep in mind a very important requirement here, which is that we build the cue the way I build all of my cues, and you pay for the expenses minus labor & time.

I am very serious. I'm tired of being called a liar and accused of hyping up the amount of work or cost involved in building a cue. I am not asking you to buy equipment or shop or property. I'm only asking you to come see how it's done, personally pay for everything that I would otherwise pay for to build a single cue, and you get to keep the profits upon sale. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't want a single penny from you. I will be absolutely transparent with expenses & you will pay, not me, so you'll know I am not lying to you. I am a friendly guy, easy to get along with, and I don't smell bad. Shouldn't be any reason you won't accept my invitation.

I am friends with most hotel owners in town, and can get you a fair deal for the duration of your stay. The food around here isn't great, but you won't starve. I may even feed you once in a while & share some beer. But the cost of building the cue is on your wallet. I am confident that once you have spent time here, seeing how I do things, how much it costs me to it, and why I do it the way I do, you will then actually realize that I do this for personal enjoyment, not money. It literally costs me more money to build cues than I get from selling them. I do it because I love building cues. No lies, no hype, no BS. You won't believe me until you experience it, so please come do it. I'm not joking.
 
qbilder said:
Since I am full of BS & lies, I offer an invitation to you. Come to my shop & I will build a cue with you being there every step of the way. For liability purposes I will not allow you to handle machinery or materials. You can handle the finished cue. But you'll be there for the entire build, every single step, doing things the way I do them. To sweeten the deal, you sell the cue for what I'd charge for the same cue, and you keep 100% of the profit.

The catch is that I want you to pay for the expenses incurred in building the cue, except for time/labor. Fuel, materials, material acquisition, material handling, adhesives, shop essentials (paper towels, etc.), utilities for duration of the build, and any unexpected maintenance that may be required to complete the job. Keep in mind a very important requirement here, which is that we build the cue the way I build all of my cues, and you pay for the expenses minus labor & time.

I am very serious. I'm tired of being called a liar and accused of hyping up the amount of work or cost involved in building a cue. I am not asking you to buy equipment or shop or property. I'm only asking you to come see how it's done, personally pay for everything that I would otherwise pay for to build a single cue, and you get to keep the profits upon sale. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't want a single penny from you. I will be absolutely transparent with expenses & you will pay, not me, so you'll know I am not lying to you. I am a friendly guy, easy to get along with, and I don't smell bad. Shouldn't be any reason you won't accept my invitation.

I am friends with most hotel owners in town, and can get you a fair deal for the duration of your stay. The food around here isn't great, but you won't starve. I may even feed you once in a while & share some beer. But the cost of building the cue is on your wallet. I am confident that once you have spent time here, seeing how I do things, how much it costs me to it, and why I do it the way I do, you will then actually realize that I do this for personal enjoyment, not money. It literally costs me more money to build cues than I get from selling them. I do it because I love building cues. No lies, no hype, no BS. You won't believe me until you experience it, so please come do it. I'm not joking.
Click to expand...

Wow! That's a helluva offer!! If I had the cash....I'd do it myself, but I already have a clue as to the expenses involved. For me being around all that amazing wood would be a bonus.

Better accept qbilder's offer...they don't come down the pike everyday!

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to qbilder

I am confused as to the anger and excitement of your post. Not at any point did I call liar, or challenge. I just did not agree and pointed out why, respectfully so I add.
And thank you for the generous offer, but I have a few cue maker friends , and have spent a lot of time in their shops, and with them socially discussing and watching and even helping when offered to some tasks.
So nothing would be learned, I am afraid, spending time there with you. But i do appreciate the kind offer to open your shop to me.
But I also think a few of the people here think I do not know whats involved or am clueless in the operations of building. Which I am not by any means. I take great interest in this, and many other woodworking things. But I also know money, retail sales, marketing, and many other financial in devours as this is my trained career if you may.
So thank you for the offer, and to answer, no it would not shock me or would I be surprised with any of this offered. I already know, and once again, I would have to disagree you build and lose money.
 
ridewiththewind said:
I did not accuse you of attacking. This is one of the issues with internet forums...reading comprehension often goes out the window.

Every maker has a philosophy of why and how they craft cues, who their target customer is, and pricing. Most do it for the love of it...as very very few, if any, are getting rich off of it. Those with the greater positive reputations, get more orders....more orders means less available cues in the pipeline, creating more demand....more demand equates to higher asking prices. It's more about supply and demand than anything else.

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good god, thank you...
 
Cues & cue makers

ridewiththewind said:
Every maker has a philosophy of why and how they craft cues, who their target customer is, and pricing. Most do it for the love of it...as very very few, if any, are getting rich off of it. Those with the greater positive reputations, get more orders....more orders means less available cues in the pipeline, creating more demand....more demand equates to higher asking prices. It's more about supply and demand than anything else.
Click to expand...
ridewiththewind said:
That just about says it all. Thanks Lisa.
Click to expand...
 
danieldakota53 said:
to qbilder

I am confused as to the anger and excitement of your post. Not at any point did I call liar, or challenge. I just did not agree and pointed out why, respectfully so I add.
And thank you for the generous offer, but I have a few cue maker friends , and have spent a lot of time in their shops, and with them socially discussing and watching and even helping when offered to some tasks.
So nothing would be learned, I am afraid, spending time there with you. But i do appreciate the kind offer to open your shop to me.
But I also think a few of the people here think I do not know whats involved or am clueless in the operations of building. Which I am not by any means. I take great interest in this, and many other woodworking things. But I also know money, retail sales, marketing, and many other financial in devours as this is my trained career if you may.
So thank you for the offer, and to answer, no it would not shock me or would I be surprised with any of this offered. I already know, and once again, I would have to disagree you build and lose money.
Click to expand...

What is that, up there in bold?

You sir, are obviously here with some kind of ax to grind, not seeking information and/or enlightenment. Shame, too, because this kind nonsense is what runs off the cuemakers. :mad:
 
danieldakota53 said:
to qbilder
And thank you for the generous offer, but I have a few cue maker friends , and have spent a lot of time in their shops, and with them socially discussing and watching and even helping when offered to some tasks.
So nothing would be learned, I am afraid, spending time there with you.
Click to expand...

And there it is!

You have access to makers of which to get your answers from...and yet you are beating the drum HERE.

Why is it I have similar access and have a pretty clear understanding of that which you appear to be struggling with?



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If you really think that there is nothing you could learn from Eric, then what else can anyone say? Sorry about the insult, but it's far-fetched to assume that someone with his experience would not be able to show you something new or interesting (in terms of building a cue).
 
cueaddicts said:
What is that, up there in bold?

You sir, are obviously here with some kind of ax to grind, not seeking information and/or enlightenment. Shame, too, because this kind nonsense is what runs off the cuemakers. :mad:
Click to expand...

Not
one bit. That up there in bold as you ask is what I do. How in the world did you take that as an ax to grind? I am very interested in the subject and wanted to hear what makers thought and there reasons or explanations of what they thought the reasons may be. And this is not nonsense , it's a very valid question.
And Lisa, I enjoyed your input very much on your last posting. Thank You for your insight and sharing.
 
ridewiththewind said:
And there it is!

You have access to makers of which to get your answers from...and yet you are beating the drum HERE.

Why is it I have similar access and have a pretty clear understanding of that which you appear to be struggling with?



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No Lisa, I am not beating the drum here I don't think. I like to hear from other makers to here what they have to say, open mind if you will. I am not struggling with any of this, and I am not sure how you have a wonderful understanding of the subject that cue makers seem to not want to answer here. Some have even gotten upset. If they do not want to share their views, I understand. But I am sure I am not the only one who would like to hear the views and explain their thoughts on this matter. It could only help them in allowing people to understand their theories and building philosophies.
 
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