To spin or not to spin that is the question

[SpiderWebComm]

I try to use a little spin on anything that isn't straight-in. On my home table, the conditions are nearly perfect (clean balls, etc.). I found when I played in different environments where the balls are really scummy/dirty, the balls would throw and skid a lot more than what I was used to. Using just a hair of outside english (when it didn't hurt to do so) prevented "bad things" from happening.

I understand the importance of being able to play with center-ball throughout the rack. I also agree one should be able to do so before spending loads of time on mastering english. However, I question the benefits of using center ball all the time when the conditions may not be perfect.

While playing under dirty conditions, one might be more likely to miss with center ball than to miss using a little outside english (because he/she didn't figure the english properly or didn't figure the aim/swerve/deflection properly).

Anyways, all things being equal (english / center ball pocketing is equal) - less bad things can happen with english in a "not perfect" environment so why shy from it.

This is just from my personal experience - I might be wrong. Anyone else shy away from center ball on purpose on certain shots while playing on dirty equipment?

Dave

 

[jsp]

I try to use a little spin on anything that isn't straight-in. On my home table, the conditions are nearly perfect (clean balls, etc.). I found when I played in different environments where the balls are really scummy/dirty, the balls would throw and skid a lot more than what I was used to. Using just a hair of outside english (when it didn't hurt to do so) prevented "bad things" from happening.

I understand the importance of being able to play with center-ball throughout the rack. I also agree one should be able to do so before spending loads of time on mastering english. However, I question the benefits of using center ball all the time when the conditions may not be perfect.

While playing under dirty conditions, one might be more likely to miss with center ball than to miss using a little outside english (because he/she didn't figure the english properly or didn't figure the aim/swerve/deflection properly).

Anyways, all things being equal (english / center ball pocketing is equal) - less bad things can happen with english in a "not perfect" environment so why shy from it.

This is just from my personal experience - I might be wrong. Anyone else shy away from center ball on purpose on certain shots while playing on dirty equipment?

Dave

I agree with you.

I have a table at home that doesn't have ideal conditions. The humidity is often fairly high and I'm too lazy to clean/polish my balls. I experience lots of CIT/SIT. Under these fairly rough conditions, I've found over time that using spin (outside or "gearing" english) certainly improves my pocketing consistency.

I also think that it's a lot easier to adjust your play from non-ideal conditions to ideal conditions, rather than the other way around. That's why I'm a bit hesitant to make my playing conditions a bit more ideal. That, and also because I'm super lazy.

 

[GMAC]

Centerball

I try to use a little spin on anything that isn't straight-in. On my home table, the conditions are nearly perfect (clean balls, etc.). I found when I played in different environments where the balls are really scummy/dirty, the balls would throw and skid a lot more than what I was used to. Using just a hair of outside english (when it didn't hurt to do so) prevented "bad things" from happening.

I understand the importance of being able to play with center-ball throughout the rack. I also agree one should be able to do so before spending loads of time on mastering english. However, I question the benefits of using center ball all the time when the conditions may not be perfect.

While playing under dirty conditions, one might be more likely to miss with center ball than to miss using a little outside english (because he/she didn't figure the english properly or didn't figure the aim/swerve/deflection properly).

Anyways, all things being equal (english / center ball pocketing is equal) - less bad things can happen with english in a "not perfect" environment so why shy from it.

This is just from my personal experience - I might be wrong. Anyone else shy away from center ball on purpose on certain shots while playing on dirty equipment?

Dave

I find myself always using a hair of english when I could use centerball unless the shot is straight in. I feel if you aim center and miss the center which is easy to do you are doomed. However if I knowingly have right english on a slight cut to the left and have adjusted for it properly my pocketing is much more consistent.

For example place the cueball on the spot and put a ball on on each side of the cueball. Give yourself a little room say 1/4 of a balls width on each side. Now get down and shoot the cueball straight up the table with no english and make it come back through the balls. As you will see when you try and hit center you almost always put unintended english on the cueball. So, I think your best bet is to put some intended english on the cueball and adjust for it. At least you have eliminated some of the variables.

 

[predator]

We should spin the ball of course, but not apply too much. I mean, many players spin the ball when needed, but put absurd amounts of it...like shooting at the extreme edge of the cueball...this can ruin anyone's game.
Watch the pro's play live if you can and then you'll see what's the right way to shoot. They use sensible amount of spin a lot. They use middle ball as well, but not because they are afraid to spin...it's because sometimes it simply is the better choice.

 

[Gregg]

I think I see where we are going with this;

IMO, you can obtain cue ball position by using speed control and force follow/force draw for many if not most postion shots.

Much more reliable than Left/Right English, or a combo of English and follow/draw.

The moral is that your consistency will improve if you can obtain position without English side spin.

 

[Jal]

I find myself always using a hair of english when I could use centerball unless the shot is straight in. I feel if you aim center and miss the center which is easy to do you are doomed. However if I knowingly have right english on a slight cut to the left and have adjusted for it properly my pocketing is much more consistent.

For example place the cueball on the spot and put a ball on on each side of the cueball. Give yourself a little room say 1/4 of a balls width on each side. Now get down and shoot the cueball straight up the table with no english and make it come back through the balls. As you will see when you try and hit center you almost always put unintended english on the cueball. So, I think your best bet is to put some intended english on the cueball and adjust for it. At least you have eliminated some of the variables.

There's going to be some error with tip placement no matter where you strike the cueball. An advantage of outside or gearing english is that you reduce throw and the balls thus behave closer to the geometrically "ideal" situation of zero throw angle. We probably have the best feel for this since it is sort of an average of all possible throw angles.

But variations in throw that come from random variations in tip placement are not generally reduced with outside, and are in fact increased in many cases. Reducing throw does not mean reducing the "scatter", except as it allows you to better estimate the base-line throw angle in the first place, just like lower squirt shafts help reduce the error in estimating the squirt angle.

So I'm nitpicking the reasons you give for using outside, but as they say, whatever floats your boat.

Jim

 

[Bigkahuna]

My head is spinning

I think I see where we are going with this;

IMO, you can obtain cue ball position by using speed control and force follow/force draw for many if not most postion shots.

Much more reliable than Left/Right English, or a combo of English and follow/draw.

The moral is that your consistency will improve if you can obtain position without English side spin.

I guess this was part of my reason for putting this out for discussion. I have a team mate who is a very good player and after he watched me play he asked me if I knew "how to play the right way". What he meant by that was using rolling follow and speed control to get on the correct side of my next shot. Kind of seams like taking steps back. I mean I can play that kind of game and I have practiced with scotch tape on my tip. However, there are many times using the english is the only way or increases my odds of getting shape.

 

[Bigkahuna]

There's going to be some error with tip placement no matter where you strike the cueball. An advantage of outside or gearing english is that you reduce throw and the balls thus behave closer to the geometrically "ideal" situation of zero throw angle. We probably have the best feel for this since it is sort of an average of all possible throw angles.

Yes, I call this collision induced correction english. I do this sometimes dependent on how I want the cue ball path affected and usually use a small amount of side.

But variations in throw that come from random variations in tip placement are not generally reduced with outside, and are in fact increased in many cases. Reducing throw does not mean reducing the "scatter", except as it allows you to better estimate the base-line throw angle in the first place, just like lower squirt shafts help reduce the error in estimating the squirt angle.

But, if it is so hard to hit center then why hit center at all? I am usually very good at hitting center but there are times when I know I missed one due to not hitting center.

 

[Bigkahuna]

My head is dizzy from all the spinning!!

I try to use a little spin on anything that isn't straight-in. On my home table, the conditions are nearly perfect (clean balls, etc.). I found when I played in different environments where the balls are really scummy/dirty, the balls would throw and skid a lot more than what I was used to. Using just a hair of outside english (when it didn't hurt to do so) prevented "bad things" from happening.

I understand the importance of being able to play with center-ball throughout the rack. I also agree one should be able to do so before spending loads of time on mastering english. However, I question the benefits of using center ball all the time when the conditions may not be perfect.

While playing under dirty conditions, one might be more likely to miss with center ball than to miss using a little outside english (because he/she didn't figure the english properly or didn't figure the aim/swerve/deflection properly).

Anyways, all things being equal (english / center ball pocketing is equal) - less bad things can happen with english in a "not perfect" environment so why shy from it.

This is just from my personal experience - I might be wrong. Anyone else shy away from center ball on purpose on certain shots while playing on dirty equipment?

Dave

You mean when you are at 90/90 and then you do a partial PIVOT:speechless: OOPs don't want to imply this is about aiming. We all know how many people will jump in and get all wound up:nono: ......

Just messin' with ya Spidey:groucho: :grinning-moose: :thumbup2: .......

 

[dr_dave]

inside is better

There's going to be some error with tip placement no matter where you strike the cueball. An advantage of outside or gearing english is that you reduce throw and the balls thus behave closer to the geometrically "ideal" situation of zero throw angle. We probably have the best feel for this since it is sort of an average of all possible throw angles.

But variations in throw that come from random variations in tip placement are not generally reduced with outside, and are in fact increased in many cases. Reducing throw does not mean reducing the "scatter", except as it allows you to better estimate the base-line throw angle in the first place, just like lower squirt shafts help reduce the error in estimating the squirt angle.

So I'm nitpicking the reasons you give for using outside, but as they say, whatever floats your boat.

Jim

Jim,

I know you know this already, but others might find it interesting that inside English might actually be a better choice if other English is not needed for CB control. I have detailed reasons here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside​

Bottom line: the amount of throw is more consistent (and less, as compared to using no English) with inside English on many cut shots!

Regards,
Dave

 

[Bigkahuna]

Jim,

I know you know this already, but others might find it interesting that inside English might actually be a better choice if other English is not needed for CB control. I have detailed reasons here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside​

Bottom line: the amount of throw is more consistent (and less, as compared to using no English) with inside English on many cut shots!

Regards,
Dave

I understand collision induced throw and spin induced throw but not sure what you are saying here Dave. Are you saying to not use spin to correct for collision induced throw?

 

[RRfireblade]

I understand collision induced throw and spin induced throw but not sure what you are saying here Dave. Are you saying to not use spin to correct for collision induced throw?

You have two options , spin to help throw the shot or enough (opposite) spin to break ball friction and reduse throw effects.


FWIW , I find myself going back and forth. I run though stretches where I use spin very little and then others where I throw almost everything. I try not to over think it and go with what is working at the times I'm playing well. Once I start to think about it I usually change things that are working , so I try not to fix it till it breaks.

I do find and few racks played with a phenolic break cue a nice tool for re-finding middle ground from time to time.

 

[dr_dave]

I understand collision induced throw and spin induced throw but not sure what you are saying here Dave. Are you saying to not use spin to correct for collision induced throw?

With inside English, you need to adjust your aim slightly to account for throw (in the CIT direction), assuming you have already accounted for squirt and swerve. However, the amount of throw will be less with inside English than if no English were used, and the amount of throw won't vary very much with the exact amount of English applied. With outside English, the amount (AND DIRECTION!) of throw can vary quite a bit with slight changes in the amount of English. FYI, I have of articles with lots of examples on these topics here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

I understand collision induced throw and spin induced throw but not sure what you are saying here Dave. Are you saying to not use spin to correct for collision induced throw?

One related point that a lot of people don't understand is that if you get some amount of throw with a little spin, you actually get less throw with a lot of spin. I suppose you can think of it like spinning tires having little traction, but the situation is more complicated than that. In any case, more spin usually does not get you more throw.

One result is that if you have a cut angle that causes pretty good throw with stun, inside english will not increase that throw and may actually decrease it.

 

[dr_dave]

One related point that a lot of people don't understand is that if you get some amount of throw with a little spin, you actually get less throw with a lot of spin. I suppose you can think of it like spinning tires having little traction, but the situation is more complicated than that. In any case, more spin usually does not get you more throw.

One result is that if you have a cut angle that causes pretty good throw with stun, inside english will not increase that throw and may actually decrease it.

If people want more info on these topics, my December '06 and February '07 articles explain and illustrate these effects.

Regards,
Dave

 

[jcrack_corn]

when i was learning it was all dead center, no spin.

I then saw a top pro play a gamble match in new orleans, and paid him to give me some lessons while he was down there for a while. I learned to spin everything for the most part.....if a shot clearly needs no spin to help with CB exit angle or for shape then stick with no spin....otherwise learn to make that cue ball dance around the table....especially when practicing.

i dont understand how anyone can play 1p without spinning almost every shot to get correct shape or set up. (along with the fact that understanding how that spin will affect the OB can let you do some fancy things in situations where you dont necessarily need to make the OB).

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Side or Spin, the pros I've seen especially with the advent of the Pro Cup spotted cue ball, use spin a lot more than any shot on the vertical axis.

In fact I would venture an opinion that 90+% of the shots the pros take will include side or spin.

When I watched Efren and Busty play on the TV table a few years ago, when they were using the Pro Cup cue ball.. the only shot I saw them hit on the vertical axis was the BREAK. Even their STUN shots had spin.

 

[Bigkahuna]

Oh my Head

I'm so dizzy my head is spinning. I think there is a song like that.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Spin.

Pros use spin for one simple reason, it makes the game easier. Nobody can win consistently at the pro level, imo, without using side english extensively.

English allows better control of the balls when used wisely. It should be allowing you to hit in a good speed range and still stay on line within that range.

Let's say you have a cut shot angle sending the cueball to the rail. It is usually easier and more controllable to stun the cueball to the rail and use sidespin to move the ball off the rail at a wider angle than it is to use draw to widen that same angle. The draw will require more speed and the resulting angle is much more speed dependent, going into the rail and, and coming off it if the draw extends to the rail. If you have to move the ball a long way you will have to pound it. The englished shot will stay on line for a much wider variation of speeds.

The same applies to follow shots or using inside off of rails.

Also the more sticky the table is the more powerful side spin becomes while draw and follow at angles off rails gets more difficult.

This is an excellent post. Truer words could not be spoken! This makes perfect sense to me and describes how I strive to play position in 9 ball. Once I started doing this, the game sure did become easier. I find that the Predator shaft makes this type of position play somewhat easier, as pocketing the ball with english is somewhat easier with the Predator (imho).

Great post,

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think I see where we are going with this;

IMO, you can obtain cue ball position by using speed control and force follow/force draw for many if not most postion shots.

Much more reliable than Left/Right English, or a combo of English and follow/draw.

The moral is that your consistency will improve if you can obtain position without English side spin.

Gregg,

I think you might have it backwards. Make take on this topic, particualrly posts by Cornerman and Unknownpro, and my own experience and observation of great players, is this: they are great players because they have extreme consistency. They have extreme consistency because they play position routes that are the easiest to reproduce. In general, using english allows the use of position routes that are easy to reproduce. Thus, using english is the ticket to extreme consistency and great player status. At least that is the way it sounds from this discussion. I would agree with that also.

I think what you might be thinking is that the likelihood of MISSING might increase with the use of english. So I would agree that your consistency with pocketing single balls might improve without side spin.

My 2 cents,

KMRUNOUT