To Thread or Not to Thread

bubsbug

bubsbug

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do most cue makers use threaded Ferrules or slip ons when building new shafts. I have been playing with the threaded ferrules and my threads are not the neatest but the do thread. I know you get extra glue surface with the threaded but Im wondering if it really worth the extra TLC.
Bubsbug!
 
If you have the equipment to do a clean, crisp job, threading is the way to go IMO. I wouldn't use anything less than 30 minute epoxy. Don't forget to add a smidge of titanium white to your epoxy.

Martin


bubsbug said:
Do most cue makers use threaded Ferrules or slip ons when building new shafts. I have been playing with the threaded ferrules and my threads are not the neatest but the do thread. I know you get extra glue surface with the threaded but Im wondering if it really worth the extra TLC.
Bubsbug!
Click to expand...
 
Most new shafts I thread. I just use a tenon dia . I think unique makes them. It works good for me, and cuts pretty clean threads. I can't strip them out without breaking the shaft or tenon, and don't need any clamps when I glue them up. I actually tighten them with a pair of vice grips. It's also quick and easy. Main thing is getting the OD right before thread forming, using the wax and blowing out the tap well, so the chips don't cause tear outs on the threads. I just did a jump shaft with only about 1/4 to 1/2" of threads and they were perfect, held really tight too, so It can be done without any special equipment, especially when doing full lenth threads.:)


Greg
 
jazznpool said:
If you have the equipment to do a clean, crisp job, threading is the way to go IMO. I wouldn't use anything less than 30 minute epoxy. Don't forget to add a smidge of titanium white to your epoxy.

Martin
Click to expand...

Martin,

Can you explain the "smidge of titanium white" comment?

Just wondering, thanks!

Mark
 
If you take the mixing stick (e.g., a popsicle stick) and dip the tip of it in titanium white and then mix this well with the epoxy, it makes the epoxy white in color. Along with cutting a crisp line in the maple shaft for the ferrule, this helps eliminate a glue line. Maybe I should keep my big mouth shut.

Martin


ragbug74 said:
Martin,

Can you explain the "smidge of titanium white" comment?

Just wondering, thanks!

Mark
Click to expand...
 
bubsbug said:
Do most cue makers use threaded Ferrules or slip ons when building new shafts. I have been playing with the threaded ferrules and my threads are not the neatest but the do thread. I know you get extra glue surface with the threaded but Im wondering if it really worth the extra TLC.
Bubsbug!
Click to expand...

Hey Bug, what tennon threader are you using? I have used the generic one from Atls and the one from Unique. The generic from Atlas is only good for the first .75" then stips the front end out. Both cut thread alot better if diameter of the tennon is at about .280" and no larger than .285". The Unique threader cutts much better and will do a longer tennon. By the way, by watching Unique's video, I learned that the hole on the opposite side is for a tennon gage though it could be used for a guide pin. To answer your question about to thread or not to thread, this is one area that will seperate a good cue maker/repair person and somebody going as cheap as they can. The customer will suffer in the long run if the easy path is taken.

Jimbo.

Jimbo.
 
Mc2 said:
Hey Bug, what tennon threader are you using? I have used the generic one from Atls and the one from Unique. The generic from Atlas is only good for the first .75" then stips the front end out. Both cut thread alot better if diameter of the tennon is at about .280" and no larger than .285". The Unique threader cutts much better and will do a longer tennon. By the way, by watching Unique's video, I learned that the hole on the opposite side is for a tennon gage though it could be used for a guide pin. To answer your question about to thread or not to thread, this is one area that will seperate a good cue maker/repair person and somebody going as cheap as they can. The customer will suffer in the long run if the easy path is taken.

Jimbo.

Jimbo.
Click to expand...

In almost 40 years of cue repair, I have installed literally thousands of ferrules and to my knowledge, not one has come loose. I have only threaded very few when I was experimenting not long ago and I found that threading a ferrule makes for a poor, weak fit. As has been said, the tenon needs to be turned to about .280 instead of the normal .312. On top of this the threads are now cut into this tenon which makes the tenon only around .200 if you only cut the threads .040 deep. If the ferrule is not bored perfectly straight and the threads are nut cut perfectly in both the tenon and the ferrule and the faces perfectly square, then the ferrule goes on canted and you end up with a visible glue line. That is the reason for adding color to the glue. When a tenon is not threaded, then the shaft ties up a machine until the glue dries. It is for this reason that manufacturers thread on their ferrules as they can quickly move onto the next shaft. I see no reason for it in my shop.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
In almost 40 years of cue repair, I have installed literally thousands of ferrules and to my knowledge, not one has come loose. I have only threaded very few when I was experimenting not long ago and I found that threading a ferrule makes for a poor, weak fit. As has been said, the tenon needs to be turned to about .280 instead of the normal .312. On top of this the threads are now cut into this tenon which makes the tenon only around .200 if you only cut the threads .040 deep. If the ferrule is not bored perfectly straight and the threads are nut cut perfectly in both the tenon and the ferrule and the faces perfectly square, then the ferrule goes on canted and you end up with a visible glue line. That is the reason for adding color to the glue. When a tenon is not threaded, then the shaft ties up a machine until the glue dries. It is for this reason that manufacturers thread on their ferrules as they can quickly move onto the next shaft. I see no reason for it in my shop.

Dick
Click to expand...


I perfectly understand what you saying, and agree with Your reasoning, as It is valid, altough I do not have these issues Myself. I suppose that is an indication of how carefull I am to square up the face with the bore & threads of the ferrule. I do all of It at the same time when I make My ferrules. I also use a shoulder at the face to add strenth the tenon, and help keep everything squared.
I see no real issues with either method, slip tenon or threaded provided the job is done corectly. They both get the job done effectively. When I do a customer shaft I usually try to keep to the design, and stay as original as possible, so If It has a slip tenon, then that's what I use during any repairs.

Greg
 
I thread mine.
I was taught to leave a shoulder at the bottom of the tenon.
3/16 long at 5/16 diam.
I ream the ferrules at the bottom of the threads if needed.
But, Ivor-X already has the shoulder area at the bottom.
I use live tooling to thread the tenon.
Quite easy actually. Leave a small end of the tenon ( which you have to file down anyway for the cap not to hit it ) at .250. When the threaded hits that, I start cranking the chuck by HAND and the threader goes towards the chuck.
I coat the tenon with super glue then accelerator to minimize chip outs.
I have the Unique die too. I just use that to clean out glue from old threaded tenons.
I use a very strong imported white glue( Edwin supplied me a big bottle ). Not epoxy b/c they are too heavy and cause more squirt imo.
 
rhncue said:
In almost 40 years of cue repair, I have installed literally thousands of ferrules and to my knowledge, not one has come loose. I have only threaded very few when I was experimenting not long ago and I found that threading a ferrule makes for a poor, weak fit. As has been said, the tenon needs to be turned to about .280 instead of the normal .312. On top of this the threads are now cut into this tenon which makes the tenon only around .200 if you only cut the threads .040 deep. If the ferrule is not bored perfectly straight and the threads are nut cut perfectly in both the tenon and the ferrule and the faces perfectly square, then the ferrule goes on canted and you end up with a visible glue line. That is the reason for adding color to the glue. When a tenon is not threaded, then the shaft ties up a machine until the glue dries. It is for this reason that manufacturers thread on their ferrules as they can quickly move onto the next shaft. I see no reason for it in my shop.

Dick
Click to expand...

Good Post Dick.

As ususal you are right on the money. The ONLY reason to thread a ferrule is so that it will lock up on the threads while it is being turned to size and the tip installed. That way it is not necessary for the glue to cure and the other work can be installed immediately.

In my opinion the threaded ferrules make an unacceptably small diameter tenon. Those tenons are weak and off center like you said.

It is better to wait until the glue cures to cut the ferrule to size and install the new tip. I have never had one come off either. I use epoxy to install my ferrules.

Good Cuemaking,
 
I f you use wood glue you dont get the brown ring between the ferrule and wood. I used to use epoxy and ca glue, when i change ferrule it's to hard to get rid of the epoxy or ca alot of fileing and picking. with the wood glue just pick @ it pops off pretty good sometimes its a pain but you dont strip the theads out as easy.

Craig
 
n10spool said:
I f you use wood glue you dont get the brown ring between the ferrule and wood. I used to use epoxy and ca glue, when i change ferrule it's to hard to get rid of the epoxy or ca alot of fileing and picking. with the wood glue just pick @ it pops off pretty good sometimes its a pain but you dont strip the theads out as easy.

Craig
Click to expand...
tap tap tap

I don't know what the issue is with .250 tenon when I have never seen one break yet.
The 5/6 shoulder lines up the ferrule and keeps the tenon strong.
Or u can go to 3/8 16 threads if u want a bigger tenon.

I thread the joint collars too. And the buttplates.
 
Mc2 said:
Hey Bug, what tennon threader are you using? I have used the generic one from Atls and the one from Unique. The generic from Atlas is only good for the first .75" then stips the front end out. Both cut thread alot better if diameter of the tennon is at about .280" and no larger than .285". The Unique threader cutts much better and will do a longer tennon. By the way, by watching Unique's video, I learned that the hole on the opposite side is for a tennon gage though it could be used for a guide pin. To answer your question about to thread or not to thread, this is one area that will seperate a good cue maker/repair person and somebody going as cheap as they can. The customer will suffer in the long run if the easy path is taken.

Jimbo.

Jimbo.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should have said "IN MY OPINION" instead of insulting all of the Qmakers & repairman(including me), who think it is not necessary to thread a tenon on to the shaft. Because someone uses a different process, doesn't mean he went "cheap" or that he's not a "good" Qmaker. In 21 years I have had NO PROBLEM with my tenons & they are not threaded. How long have you been doing it?...JER
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Maybe you should have said "IN MY OPINION" instead of insulting all of the Qmakers & repairman(including me), who think it is not necessary to thread a tenon on to the shaft. Because someone uses a different process, doesn't mean he went "cheap" or that he's not a "good" Qmaker. In 21 years I have had NO PROBLEM with my tenons & they are not threaded. How long have you been doing it?...JER
Click to expand...
I think he was referring to his better tenon threader.
Atlas's threader is aluminum while Unique's a heavy metal one.
 
Sorry Jer,

I should have used IMO, however I have found that most things posted are opinions. You know what they say about assuming. By the way 21 years is impressive. What I mean by cheap though is that buggy is not taking the time to learn why he should do it one way or the other and decide for himself. Taking the easy road. Buggy buy some cheap wood and ferrules cut tennons and glue on ferrules and tips till your blue in the face. IMO

Jimbo.
 
Mc2 said:
Sorry Jer,

I should have used IMO, however I have found that most things posted are opinions. You know what they say about assuming. By the way 21 years is impressive. What I mean by cheap though is that buggy is not taking the time to learn why he should do it one way or the other and decide for himself. Taking the easy road. Buggy buy some cheap wood and ferrules cut tennons and glue on ferrules and tips till your blue in the face. IMO

Jimbo.
Click to expand...
Wait just one minute here. I am not just taking the easy way out here. I have just completed 100 shafts with slip on ferrules, its easy and quick. Recently I purchased 100 threaded ferrules from atlas so i started experminting with them. I also have the Atlas compression die. I was asking this question so that I would be more educated on this subject. I also wanted some advise on the threads themselves. I wanted to make sure I was doing it correctly. IMO I dont think that there is any real significant value with threaded ferrules. They cost $3.20 each, require more time to install, and have a smaller diameter. You also run the risk of ruining a $200-$300 new custom laminated shaft by breaking the tennon. (which is repairable, but beside the point) If I were taking the easy way out, then I would have stayed with the slip ons and not have asked this question. Thanks for all of the input.

Bubsbug
 
Where are all of these broken off threaded ferrules? 14 years and I have seen one, maybe two.

Gene
 
Cuedog said:
Where are all of these broken off threaded ferrules? 14 years and I have seen one, maybe two.

Gene
Click to expand...

I don't have to do many but I do repair 5 or so a year. I do enough that I keep tenons made up to use. How many ferruls have you had to replace that were epoxied on without threads and came loose?

Dick
 
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