TOI is English/Spin

[CJ Wiley]

Favoring one side of the cue ball gives more accurate feedback on shots.

Favoring one side of the CB does not increase the predictability of your results. If you miss your intended spot on the CB you'll miss your shot (and shape) in the same way as if you missed the CB's center.

I wouldn't be so "obsessed" with pointing this falsehood out if you guys weren't so "obsessed" with repeatedly spreading it.

pj
chgo

When you aim for the center of the cue ball and you're off to the left it will deflect to the right, if you hit imperfectly it to the right, it will deflect to the left......so it will veer off one of two ways.

When you favor the left side of the cue ball and hit imperfectly to the left it will still deflect to the right, however, if you hit imperfectly to the right it will not defect to the left (because you're still just hitting the center, not the other side of the cue ball).

So the cue ball will veer in one direction on an imperfect hit, not two.

Also, when you favor the right side of the cue ball and hit imperfectly to the right it will defect to the left, however, when a shot is imperfectly hit to the left it won't defect to the right.

So again, it will only defect in one direction on any imperfectly hit shots (I don't gauge my game on hitting each shot perfectly, this is not possible for most humans).

This is very important, because then you can adjust where you hit the pocket by your shot speed, which will give more accurate feedback on missed shots.

I calibrate my shots to the center of the pocket, however, using TOI I'm actually aiming at the inside of the pocket.....if it doesn't deflect I'll hit the inside of the pocket, if it deflects slightly I'll hit the center, and if it deflects more I will still hit the outside of the pocket zone.

This isn't true for the "center ball player," they don't truly know why they miss a shot, because their shots can defect right, or left on a shot that's not perfectly cued. This doesn't give them the immediate feedback and puts them a position of guessing why they missed, and at my level I can't afford to guess......it may cost me the match, money, or tournament.

This is how I developed such a finely tuned feel for the pocket. I see the pocket as a zone, and divide it into three parts, this is what I refer to as 'The 3 Part Pocket System'. This is a powerful shift from how players normally view the game, the pocket and how they see margin of error in shot-making.

I was known as one of the most accurate shot-makers in the history of the game, what I'm doing is sharing my technique so that others can benefit. If someone chooses not to listen, or even try what I'm suggesting, it's entirely up to the individual.

I'm the messenger, delivering the message that I learned from many champion players through the years. Without their help I would not have developed a game that consistent in both tournament play and high-dollar gambling sessions for many, many years.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Don't scientist come up with theories and then do experiments to prove and disprove things.

Do you jump off buildings to test the "theory" of gravity?

This is grammar school stuff - you guys would already understand it if you honestly tried (and weren't a little afraid it's true).

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

If someone chooses not to listen, or try what I'm suggesting, it's up to them.

When you aim for the center of the cue ball and you're off to the left it will deflect to the right, if you hit imperfectly it to the right, it will deflect to the left......so it will veer off one of two ways.

When you favor the left side of the cue ball and hit imperfectly to the left it will still deflect to the right, however, if you hit imperfectly to the right it will not defect to the left (because you're still just hitting the center, not the other side of the cue ball).

So the cue ball will veer in one direction on an imperfect hit, not two.

Also, when you favor the right side of the cue ball and hit imperfectly to the right it will defect to the left, however, when a shot is imperfectly hit to the left it won't defect to the right.

So again, it will only defect in one direction on any imperfectly hit shots (I don't gauge my game on hitting each shot perfectly, this is not possible for most humans).

This is very important, because then you can adjust where you hit the pocket by your shot speed, which will give more accurate feedback on missed shots.

I calibrate my shots to the center of the pocket, however, using TOI I'm actually aiming at the inside of the pocket.....if it doesn't deflect I'll hit the inside of the pocket, if it deflects slightly I'll hit the center, and if it deflects more I will still hit the outside of the pocket zone.

This isn't true for the "center ball player," they don't truly know why they miss a shot, because their shots can defect right, or left on a shot that's not perfectly cued. This doesn't give them the immediate feedback and puts them a position of guessing why they missed, and at my level I can't afford to guess......it may cost me the match, money, or tournament.

This is how I developed such a finely tuned feel for the pocket. I see the pocket as a zone, and divide it into three parts, this is what I refer to as 'The 3 Part Pocket System'. This is a powerful shift from how players normally view the game, the pocket and how they see margin of error in shot-making.

I was known as one of the most accurate shot-makers in the history of the game, what I'm doing is sharing my technique so that others can benefit. If someone chooses not to listen, or even try what I'm suggesting, it's entirely up to the individual.

I'm the messenger, delivering the message that I learned from many champion players through the years. Without their help I would not have developed a game that consistent in both tournament play and high-dollar gambling sessions for many, many years.

 

[cookie man]

Do you jump off buildings to test the "theory" of gravity?

This is grammar school stuff - you guys would already understand it if you honestly tried (and weren't a little afraid it's true).

pj
chgo

No i would be much smarter and just jump off a box about two feet in the air. Risking your life to try and prove something is like spending all your time on a pool forum trying to tell people they don't know what they are talking about.
Maybe you went to the wrong grammar school

 

[KMRUNOUT]

PJ,

If you ever make it to Hawaii, leave all your sun screen at home and come to the pool hall. However, don't forget to bring all your scientific shit: books, computers, calculators, abacuses, test tubes, and whatever other technical shit that you use to calculate how to play pool.

I will give you the last two balls and play every shot INSIDE. You can read all your books and stuff and perform your calculations and use whatever you want to use when it is your turn.

Garden rakes aren't allowed though. I have a feeling the only way you can make balls is to rake them in.

Aloha.

Curious what this would prove, other than the fact that some people dislike knowledge and understanding, and "all that kinda shit".

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Don't scientist come up with theories and then do experiments to prove and disprove things. How is it you can make judgments without putting the work in?

Are you familiar with the concept of "a priori" knowledge? Some (many) types of knowledge do not require any concrete reality to be true. For example, I know that 1 plus 1 equals 2. I do not need to actually have two objects in front of me, and place on in one place, count it, then add the other one to it, count again...etc. Lol.

Logic is nice in that way.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

So the cue ball will veer in one direction on an imperfect hit, not two.

Very important question: (Maybe Dr. Dave has this answer) What is the relationship between tip offset and cue ball squirt. In other words, does 2 tips of english create twice as much squirt as 1 tip?

CJ's argument rests on this piece of information. I do not know the answer. But check it out:

Let's assume that there is a linear relationship between squirt and tip offset. Let's also assume that a particular player is accurate to plus or minus 1/2 tip. Now, just as an example, suppose that 1/2 tip creates 1/2 ball of squirt over 6 feet (who knows, its just an example.) Based on our premises, a full tip will create a full ball of throw. Obviously no english creates no squirt.

Example 1: Player aims for 1/2 tip left. Margin of error is +- 1/2 tip (which is probably way more than it really is for a good player). So if they hit exactly 1/2 tip left, the ball goes in. If they miss their target 1/2 tip right, then they hit center ball. They will not have the 1/2 ball squirt they were counting on. They will miss. If they miss by 1/2 tip left, then they have hit 1 full tip left, and will get a full ball of squirt. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

Example 2: Player aims for center. If they hit their target, the ball goes in. If they miss a 1/2 tip left, they get 1/2 ball squirt, and they miss. If they miss a 1/2 tip right, they get 1/2 ball squirt in the other direction. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

These two scenarios are essentially the exact same. The only piece of info that must be confirmed is if the *amount* of squirt changes due to tip offset. CJ's idea may work if it can be shown that doubling the tip offset does NOT double the amount of squirt.

I can't see how this is anything but indisputable. (the logic I mean)

So what is the answer? Is tip offset related linearly to cueball squirt?

KMRUNOUT

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When you aim for the center of the cue ball and you're off to the left it will deflect to the right, if you hit imperfectly it to the right, it will deflect to the left......so it will veer off one of two ways.

Yes...

When you favor the left side of the cue ball and hit imperfectly to the left it will still deflect to the right, however, if you hit imperfectly to the right it will not defect to the left (because you're still just hitting the center, not the other side of the cue ball).

This misses the point. The important thing isn't which side of your cue the CB deflects, it's which side of your target it deflects.

When you try to hit the CB with left sidespin you either:

- hit the spot - CB deflects just enough, hitting your target straight on
- hit left of the spot - CB deflects too much, missing your target to the right
- hit right of the spot - CB deflects too little, missing your target to the left

In other words, you miss your target to both sides, just like when you're trying to hit the CB's center.

Avoiding the CB's center doesn't change anything.

I calibrate my shots to the center of the pocket, however, using TOI I'm actually aiming at the inside of the pocket.....if it doesn't deflect I'll hit the inside of the pocket, if it deflects slightly I'll hit the center, and if it deflects more I will still hit the outside of the pocket zone.

For the same reason described above, this is also mistaken. If you "calibrate" to the center of the pocket with sidespin, stroke errors will make you miss to both sides of center pocket, just like trying to hit that target with centerball.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Any time you or Mike or CJ or anybody else want to actually discuss what I've said about this...

Or, alternatively, you can all continue with "you've never tried it", "you probably can't play a lick", "you must carry around a slide rule", etc., etc. - all of which translate to "I don't really know what you're talking about".

[crickets]

pj
chgo

I've always been available to discuss it if you'd like. Let's just keep it at a discussion level and not trade IQ barbs, is all I've ever asked.

I don't need to be a wordsmith to get my point across. I've just been trying to relay my personal observations about what I've been doing and how it's been working for me. Despite previous allegations and misunderstandings on these forums, I look forward to interesting threads about the physics or scientific applications of the stroke or our equipment. It provides the basis for everything we discuss and build upon in every thread.

What I also enjoy is the discussion in anecdotal terms in areas we don't need to dissect to understand. That's what makes the game fun for me and pulls me back to explore new ideas and thoughts about doing something a little differently than the norm or looking at the "same old" a new way. To each his own.

We may never agree about certain things and that's okay. We should always be able to respect a different point of view and try to learn from it. Pretty easy to do.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Very important question: (Maybe Dr. Dave has this answer) What is the relationship between tip offset and cue ball squirt. In other words, does 2 tips of english create twice as much squirt as 1 tip?

CJ's argument rests on this piece of information. I do not know the answer. But check it out:

Let's assume that there is a linear relationship between squirt and tip offset. Let's also assume that a particular player is accurate to plus or minus 1/2 tip. Now, just as an example, suppose that 1/2 tip creates 1/2 ball of squirt over 6 feet (who knows, its just an example.) Based on our premises, a full tip will create a full ball of throw. Obviously no english creates no squirt.

Example 1: Player aims for 1/2 tip left. Margin of error is +- 1/2 tip (which is probably way more than it really is for a good player). So if they hit exactly 1/2 tip left, the ball goes in. If they miss their target 1/2 tip right, then they hit center ball. They will not have the 1/2 ball squirt they were counting on. They will miss. If they miss by 1/2 tip left, then they have hit 1 full tip left, and will get a full ball of squirt. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

Example 2: Player aims for center. If they hit their target, the ball goes in. If they miss a 1/2 tip left, they get 1/2 ball squirt, and they miss. If they miss a 1/2 tip right, they get 1/2 ball squirt in the other direction. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

These two scenarios are essentially the exact same. The only piece of info that must be confirmed is if the *amount* of squirt changes due to tip offset. CJ's idea may work if it can be shown that doubling the tip offset does NOT double the amount of squirt.

I can't see how this is anything but indisputable. (the logic I mean)

So what is the answer? Is tip offset related linearly to cueball squirt?

KMRUNOUT

Yes, and so your analysis is correct - and it's the same thing I've been saying for years, ever since CJ first made the claim years ago. In fact, before seeing your post, I said the same thing again(!) above.

pj
chgo

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Yes, and so your analysis is correct - and it's the same thing I've been saying for years, ever since CJ first made the claim years ago. In fact, before seeing your post, I said the same thing again(!) above.

pj
chgo

Haha...yeah I came back to check and saw your post, and I was thinking "isn't this what I just said" lol.

Ok so I guess then the best bet is to aim the ball where you want it to go. Good thing, because I've been using this technique since I started pool. It seems easy and straighforward too.

Although I definitely love the feeling of hitting a cut shot with a hair of inside, floating the cueball to the side rail with zero spin, and come straight back across the table. I don't know if this is pretty much what a TOI shot feels like, but I do like it.

KMRUNOUT

 

[SJDinPHX]

Yada, yada, yada.... (I don't gauge my game on hitting each shot perfectly, this is not possible for most humans). <--I thought there was something 'different about you !...More yada yada....
I calibrate my shots to the center of the pocket, however, using TOI I'm actually aiming at the inside of the pocket.....if it doesn't deflect I'll hit the inside of the pocket, if it deflects slightly I'll hit the center, and if it deflects more I will still hit the outside of the pocket zone. <--OK !

This isn't true for the "center ball player," they don't truly know why they miss a shot, because their shots can defect right, or left on a shot that's not perfectly cued. This doesn't give them the immediate feedback and puts them a position of guessing why they missed, and at my level I can't afford to guess......it may cost me the match, money, or tournament.

This is how I developed such a finely tuned feel for the pocket. I see the pocket as a zone, and divide it into three parts, this is what I refer to as 'The 3 Part Pocket System'. This is a powerful shift from how players normally view the game, the pocket and how they see margin of error in shot-making.

I was known as one of the most accurate shot-makers in the history of the game,<--Nice touch !

I'm the messenger, delivering the message that I learned from many champion players through the years. Without their help I would not have developed a game that is consistent in both tournament play and high-dollar gambling sessions for many, many years.<--Nicer touch !

Oh good, I see you took my advice, and dug out the old clippings, for our viewing pleasure, AGAIN ! ..Although I've lost track of the number of times I've seen that particular one ! Just wondering, do you ever save the clips of the author's who call you a conceited, first class BSer ?..Might be nice, for a little change of pace !..(I've seen several dozen, but I didn't save them, dammit)

PS..Personally, I much more enjoyed sharing pictures of our dog's !
(The odds of me learning anything about pool from you, are quite slim)

View attachment 385450

 

[lfigueroa]

PJ,

If you ever make it to Hawaii, leave all your sun screen at home and come to the pool hall. However, don't forget to bring all your scientific shit: books, computers, calculators, abacuses, test tubes, and whatever other technical shit that you use to calculate how to play pool.

I will give you the last two balls and play every shot INSIDE. You can read all your books and stuff and perform your calculations and use whatever you want to use when it is your turn.

Garden rakes aren't allowed though. I have a feeling the only way you can make balls is to rake them in.

Aloha.

lol. The 4,000 mile woof. Very brave.

Get off your tropical porch, little doggie, and fly to the main land. Then go "bow-wow."

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

Very important question: (Maybe Dr. Dave has this answer) What is the relationship between tip offset and cue ball squirt. In other words, does 2 tips of english create twice as much squirt as 1 tip?

CJ's argument rests on this piece of information. I do not know the answer. But check it out:

Let's assume that there is a linear relationship between squirt and tip offset. Let's also assume that a particular player is accurate to plus or minus 1/2 tip. Now, just as an example, suppose that 1/2 tip creates 1/2 ball of squirt over 6 feet (who knows, its just an example.) Based on our premises, a full tip will create a full ball of throw. Obviously no english creates no squirt.

Example 1: Player aims for 1/2 tip left. Margin of error is +- 1/2 tip (which is probably way more than it really is for a good player). So if they hit exactly 1/2 tip left, the ball goes in. If they miss their target 1/2 tip right, then they hit center ball. They will not have the 1/2 ball squirt they were counting on. They will miss. If they miss by 1/2 tip left, then they have hit 1 full tip left, and will get a full ball of squirt. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

Example 2: Player aims for center. If they hit their target, the ball goes in. If they miss a 1/2 tip left, they get 1/2 ball squirt, and they miss. If they miss a 1/2 tip right, they get 1/2 ball squirt in the other direction. They will miss by the exact same amount in the other direction.

These two scenarios are essentially the exact same. The only piece of info that must be confirmed is if the *amount* of squirt changes due to tip offset. CJ's idea may work if it can be shown that doubling the tip offset does NOT double the amount of squirt.

I can't see how this is anything but indisputable. (the logic I mean)

So what is the answer? Is tip offset related linearly to cueball squirt?

KMRUNOUT

When using TOI it's best to favor the inside of the ball as little as possible. Beginners need to favor more, the advanced players less. For many years people ask me what I did because they could tell my cue ball reacted differently than normal, however, they could not tell what I was doing.

 

[CJ Wiley]

to master these type games you must have the ability to move the ball

I've always been available to discuss it if you'd like. Let's just keep it at a discussion level and not trade IQ barbs, is all I've ever asked.

I don't need to be a wordsmith to get my point across. I've just been trying to relay my personal observations about what I've been doing and how it's been working for me. Despite previous allegations and misunderstandings on these forums, I look forward to interesting threads about the physics or scientific applications of the stroke or our equipment. It provides the basis for everything we discuss and build upon in every thread.

What I also enjoy is the discussion in anecdotal terms in areas we don't need to dissect to understand. That's what makes the game fun for me and pulls me back to explore new ideas and thoughts about doing something a little differently than the norm or looking at the "same old" a new way. To each his own.

We may never agree about certain things and that's okay. We should always be able to respect a different point of view and try to learn from it. Pretty easy to do.

Best,
Mike

That's right, at the end of the day we're playing a game and it should be enjoyed.

The TOI technique is no different than the principle in golf when a player favors one side of the fairway, or green and draws or fades the ball towards the target. In pool I'm favoring one side of the pocket and moving it towards the center. If it goes too far it still goes in the outside part of the pocket, not enough and it goes in the inside part.

This enables me to accelerate to create and calibrate the angles to the pocket. This is an entirely different concept that trying to aim at the center and hit the cue ball with "center ball" - to master these type games you must have the ability to move the ball off course in a deliberate way to create zones.

This is done in tennis with topspin, and under-spin, also, american twist and slice serves....in golf they draw, and fade the ball - in more extreme cases they hook and slice, this would be more like a masse' in pool.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Oh good, I see you took my advice, and dug out the old clippings, for our viewing pleasure, AGAIN ! ..Although I've lost track of the number of times I've seen that particular one ! Just wondering, do you ever save the clips of the author's who call you a conceited, first class BSer ?..Might be nice, for a little change of pace !..(I've seen several dozen, but I didn't save them, dammit)

PS..Personally, I much more enjoyed sharing pictures of our dog's !
(The odds of me learning anything about pool from you, are quite slim)

View attachment 385450

Sorry, Dad, I just wrote this one today. Can't beat me up again about this one. Put away your belt, when you see me you can slap me.....if you dare.

 

[Swighey]

In my opinion, CJ is stone cold correct here - yes you can miss your target to either side but you still get deflection in the same direction. That's just one of the purposes of using, what CJ calls, "TOI" - because no human being can hit the CB stone cold center consistently. You have more control (in a practical sense) because what the CB does for the duration of the shot is closer (in practice) to what you want it to do.

TOI is english. CJ will never admit that it is - because he said it isn't and is too stubborn to admit that when he says it's not english this isn't really what he means. Either that or he has got it in his head that it's such a special form of english that it "isn't". Saying that it's not english but "hitting the edge of center ball" is a cop out.

At the end of the day it's a technique that uses a particular form of english (a touch of inside of it) in order to compensate for some other effects that might occur if you didn't use it. And it can be very useful - to most players in many situations. Over relying on it with better results is better than not using it with worse results.

 

[Swighey]

When using TOI it's best to favor the inside of the ball as little as possible. Beginners need to favor more, the advanced players less.

This sums up TOI perfectly :thumbup:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you can miss your target to either side but you still get deflection in the same direction.

You mean deflection to the same side of your stick, which doesn't do anything for you. It's meaningless.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

when trying to apply inside english you would have it more parallel.

In my opinion, CJ is stone cold correct here - yes you can miss your target to either side but you still get deflection in the same direction. That's just one of the purposes of using, what CJ calls, "TOI" - because no human being can hit the CB stone cold center consistently. You have more control (in a practical sense) because what the CB does for the duration of the shot is closer (in practice) to what you want it to do.

TOI is english. CJ will never admit that it is - because he said it isn't and is too stubborn to admit that when he says it's not english this isn't really what he means. Either that or he has got it in his head that it's such a special form of english that it "isn't". Saying that it's not english but "hitting the edge of center ball" is a cop out.

At the end of the day it's a technique that uses a particular form of english (a touch of inside of it) in order to compensate for some other effects that might occur if you didn't use it. And it can be very useful - to most players in many situations. Over relying on it with better results is better than not using it with worse results.

It's not about "admitting" it's english, of course there's spin on the cue ball no matter where you hit it. If you think about spinning the ball, or putting english on it, your'e getting away from the object of the 'Touch of Inside' and that's just to deflect it slightly with minimum spin.

The cue is also slightly angles towards the center of the object ball, and when trying to apply inside english you would have it more parallel.

You can think of TOI as putting english on the cue ball, however, if you do I will assure you it won't get you the right outcome. I've been teaching this for quite some time and using it for many years.....I will NEVER think of spinning the ball when using TOI, when using inside english I do think about spinning the ball......there's definitely a difference!