TOI is English/Spin

[yankee817299]

English or not English???

Put the CB on the head spot and OB in the center of the table.

Line up center to center, and get down on the shot using TOI (we'll say to the right).

Now, have a friend remove the OB from the table. After it's out of the way, shoot the CB into the rail.



If you've been playing pool for more than a day, then you don't even need to physically do this to know the CB will come off to the right after contacting the rail due to hitting the CB off center.

CJ has said countless times that TOI is not the same as english.

Hitting the cue ball off the center axis very easily could be considered english. But, what everyone has overlooked is this. The 3 hours that CJ can spend with you teaching TOI is not 3 hrs. of hitting the cue ball left or right of center. It's 3 hrs. of learning the proper stroke to use to obtain the affects of TOI. CJ has put it all out there for you guys, the "hammer stroke", the "wrists", no follow through, his stroke is not the conventional stroke that most others use. All you "haters" have missed the boat. You guys are his best marketing strategy ever, he loves you guys.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"The moment of Truth in pocket billiards, is the moment of impact"

Hitting the cue ball off the center axis very easily could be considered english. But, what everyone has overlooked is this. The 3 hours that CJ can spend with you teaching TOI is not 3 hrs. of hitting the cue ball left or right of center. It's 3 hrs. of learning the proper stroke to use to obtain the affects of TOI. CJ has put it all out there for you guys, the "hammer stroke", the "wrists", no follow through, his stroke is not the conventional stroke that most others use. All you "haters" have missed the boat. You guys are his best marketing strategy ever, he loves you guys.

Be careful, some "dis-likers" may "real eyes" that they are only functioning at 0.1% of their true potential. This is something that often goes unnoticed in a person's entire lifetime.

When a players doesn't know how to hit the cue ball purely, precisely, and consistently they will never benefit from TOI and will not reach their true potential.

"The moment of Truth in pocket billiards, is the moment of impact" - CJ Wiley

 

[Swighey]

People don't have a "potential". They do have room for growth though. Those of us that "notice" this can make use of it. And we can stop growing at any time, even when we have achieved more than most people.

CJ, you still haven't explained how TOI isn't english. Yet you still like to talk down to those who believe it is. Or you could just admit you were wrong when you said it isn't english and that that's not what you actually meant? Calling people "dis-likers" aka "haters" doesn't advance the discussion - it stalls it.

 

[Chrippa]

People don't have a "potential". They do have room for growth though. Those of us that "notice" this can make use of it. And we can stop growing at any time, even when we have achieved more than most people.

CJ, you still haven't explained how TOI isn't english. Yet you still like to talk down to those who believe it is. Or you could just admit you were wrong when you said it isn't english and that that's not what you actually meant? Calling people "dis-likers" aka "haters" doesn't advance the discussion - it stalls it.

Hi,

hmmmm, It´s kind of funny to read your post and not wonder. Why haven't´you seen what CJ, me and many more have said about TOI, what have you missed?

I think you can't see because of something and the answer to this lies within.

I´ll take it again, very short now.

If you have a CB and a OB in a angle and shoot a shot that makes the CB after contact have no spin.

If you have a hard time doing this, figuring it out - read the posts about TOI.

Best regards

Christian

 

[Swighey]

I haven't missed anything. I understand everything that you say. I don't know why you think I don't understand.

 

[Banks]

Does that mean any form of a stop shot is not done using english because the cb doesn't move or moves less? Almost sounds like nothing is english now. If i break and the cb doesn't fly around, does that mean i didn't use english? I guess kill shots aren't english either. Well, hot damn. Next thing you know, somebody's going to tell me my pockets only have one or two parts.

Likewise, if i cut a shot center ball, am i using english now?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Human nature is a funny thing, the greatest scientists on earth still don't get it!

Hi,

hmmmm, It´s kind of funny to read your post and not wonder. Why haven't´you seen what CJ, me and many more have said about TOI, what have you missed?

I think you can't see because of something and the answer to this lies within.

I´ll take it again, very short now.

If you have a CB and a OB in a angle and shoot a shot that makes the CB after contact have no spin.

If you have a hard time doing this, figuring it out - read the posts about TOI.

Best regards

Christian

It is a strange phenomenon, some players recognize the power of the TOI, and some don't.

The ones that don't understand it seem to have some type of mental block....it's almost like they're unwilling to accept any new information.

I'm pretty sure if I was showing them and demonstrating the technique they would all see how effective a weapon it is....unless they didn't want to for some odd reason.

Human nature is a funny thing, the greatest scientists on earth still don't understand the process to get from confused to faith. There are serious gaps in their understanding of the subconscious and how it is utilized to change belief systems that are in place.

'the GAME is the teacher'

 

[Swighey]

CJ, you appear to have the mental block if you think that saying "TOI is english" means a player doesn't understand TOI. You'd do yourself a favour if you would actually engage in the discussion that is being held. You appear to be blind to it and intent on selling TOI to the converted.

My question is this: if you believe TOI is not english then can you explain clearly and concisely why it is not? Or if you can't ,is it possible for you to admit that it is?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I guess we have to determine if "english" and "spin" are the same thing.

Are they? Are english and spin the same thing in the game of pocket billiards?

No they are not.

English refers to the cueing action...the location one hits on the cue ball. Hitting to the left or right of center is "english". In reality, probably 99.999999999% of all shots are hit with some amount of english, by this definition.

One can, however, hit dead center and the contact between the cue ball and object ball will result in spin on the cue ball.

So it would be fair and logical to say that all english is spin, but not all spin is english.

Seem reasonable?

KMRUNOUT

 

[Swighey]

No they are not.

English refers to the cueing action...the location one hits on the cue ball. Hitting to the left or right of center is "english". In reality, probably 99.999999999% of all shots are hit with some amount of english, by this definition.

One can, however, hit dead center and the contact between the cue ball and object ball will result in spin on the cue ball.

So it would be fair and logical to say that all english is spin, but not all spin is english.

Seem reasonable?

KMRUNOUT

Seems more than reasonable.

 

[Mikjary]

No they are not.

English refers to the cueing action...the location one hits on the cue ball. Hitting to the left or right of center is "english". In reality, probably 99.999999999% of all shots are hit with some amount of english, by this definition.

One can, however, hit dead center and the contact between the cue ball and object ball will result in spin on the cue ball.

So it would be fair and logical to say that all english is spin, but not all spin is english.

Seem reasonable?

KMRUNOUT

Good post. My thoughts are, hitting dead center on the cue ball happens, but not as often as we'd like. I move a hair to the inside of the cue ball and increase the predictability of my results.

I don't use it as much on faster cloth. I like it on older cloth or when the humidity picks up and the balls start to get some dirt on them.

All hits off center are by definition, english, but not necessarily used in the same amounts or purposes. Stun and throw don't change, but the action of the cue ball after it leaves the object ball is what TOI is all about. I think getting hung up on definitions is a waste of time because it furthers a personal agenda and stalls the discussion.

I used to visit a popular baseball forum, but rarely go there anymore. There was a group of posters who needed to clarify every facet of the baseball swing and label, by definition, every movement throughout its process, ad nauseam. Instead of getting past the minutiae and talking about a professional level swing, discussions stalled out with trying to list and catalog fundamental properties and their biomechanical components.

I visited the site a few weeks ago and only recognized a couple of the posters. The traffic was down to 10% of what it used to be and probably will never come back. There were a few members with professional resumes and several college coaches who posted. They were chased away by the purists who demanded technical explanations when doing so would've served no purpose other than to satisfy their own personal egos. After being ridiculed, the players/coaches simply stopped posting and the flow of knowledge, coveted by the purists as being the reason for the forum in the first place, turned around and bit them in the ass as it ended.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...hitting dead center on the cue ball happens, but not as often as we'd like. I move a hair to the inside of the cue ball and increase the predictability of my results.

Favoring one side of the CB does not increase the predictability of your results. If you miss your intended spot on the CB you'll miss your shot (and shape) in the same way as if you missed the CB's center.

I wouldn't be so "obsessed" with pointing this falsehood out if you guys weren't so "obsessed" with repeatedly spreading it.

pj
chgo

 

[SJDinPHX]

Favoring one side of the CB does not increase the predictability of your results. If you miss your intended spot on the CB you'll miss your shot (and shape) in the same way as if you missed the CB's center.

I wouldn't be so "obsessed" with pointing this falsehood out if you guys weren't so "obsessed" with repeatedly spreading it.

pj
chgo

PJ..It appears to me, that if you are going to make 'too much sense'...you are going to piss people off, who rarely make, ...'too much sense' !!!

 

[Mikjary]

Favoring one side of the CB does not increase the predictability of your results. If you miss your intended spot on the CB you'll miss your shot (and shape) in the same way as if you missed the CB's center.

I wouldn't be so "obsessed" with pointing this falsehood out if you guys weren't so "obsessed" with repeatedly spreading it.

pj
chgo

It's a mental obsession. You have it because you've never gotten past that part and employed the physical part of the experiment. Your armchair QB approach has limited your ideas of what works and why/how it works.

I use TOI if I feel it's the right shot for the position. On faster tables, I rarely use it. It depends on the situation. You seem to believe it's a necessity for every shot. Each player has a different idea of how to use it and when. It's just a tool for cinching balls and position play for me. The next guy may use it all the time. Don't know, don't care.

You obviously don't use it, so you try to discredit it. When I use it, I consistently hit a side of the cue ball that I know will give me predictable results. If it's predictable and consistent for me, why is it a "falsehood"? Am I lying about my experience along with possibly thousands of others versus your inexperience?

Best,
Mike

 

[Colin Colenso]

imho, the reason TOI works for some players, is that aligning a little inside tends to make the player align the bridge such that it is set up to overcut a little. As the natural tendency on these shots is to undercut, this method presents a quick fix. It may even present a reliable aim compensation method, but one would need to understand adjustments that would be required according to distance to OB, speed of shot and cut angle. e.g. For longer distances, align with less inside offset. Same for higher speed shots. Same for fuller angles. And vice versa.

Certainly there is value to being competent in not relying on OE to turn these shots in, particularly in regard to reducing the movement of the CB off the rail. That said, I avoid soft stun or slight IE cut shots 10-60 degrees like the plague, as do most snooker players, for good reason. CIT is very high on these shots and they are prone to kicks.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Am I lying about my experience...?

That's the only alternative you can imagine?

You're misinterpreting it. No experience with this technique is needed to know that - it's obvious on its face. Any time you'd like to actually discuss it without the "you haven't tried it" dodge...

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

That's the only alternative you can imagine?

You're misinterpreting it. No experience with this technique is needed to know that - it's obvious on its face. Any time you'd like to actually discuss it without the "you haven't tried it" dodge...

pj
chgo

If you check my posting history, I've been discussing it for years, at length since it's beginning on these forums. If you haven't done your homework, it's obvious we're not discussing the information from the same baseline. I did the work, how does that make me the "dodger"?

In my case (I'm discussing "it", again), I use it only as needed. That may mean not at all, sparingly, or quite a bit. It depends on the playing conditions and/or position play.

It's simply a tool. I use it to cinch shots with deflection. After quite a bit of practice with it, I've found that I can estimate the squirt better than I can the amount of spin I use to throw a ball to the pocket.

I try to use a common speed, if possible, in my stroking. This enables me to develop a consistent, predictable outcome for my cue ball deflection and alignment when I use TOI. I don't like to bunt balls unless I'm playing on the faster cloth and rails (which I think have lessened the quality of the game).

I'm doing the opposite of what you may be implying with introducing too many variables into a stroke. I use a single speed, cue at a specific spot if I use TOI, and estimate a constant amount of cue ball deflection. I don't estimate the effect of gearing spin, the speed for allowing for squirt and swerve (to a lesser degree), and worry about the under cut. These adjustments are not a factor and could distract me during each shot.

Best,
Mike

 

[HawaiianEye]

That's the only alternative you can imagine?

You're misinterpreting it. No experience with this technique is needed to know that - it's obvious on its face. Any time you'd like to actually discuss it without the "you haven't tried it" dodge...

pj
chgo

PJ,

If you ever make it to Hawaii, leave all your sun screen at home and come to the pool hall. However, don't forget to bring all your scientific shit: books, computers, calculators, abacuses, test tubes, and whatever other technical shit that you use to calculate how to play pool.

I will give you the last two balls and play every shot INSIDE. You can read all your books and stuff and perform your calculations and use whatever you want to use when it is your turn.

Garden rakes aren't allowed though. I have a feeling the only way you can make balls is to rake them in.

Aloha.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have a feeling the only way you can make balls is to rake them in.

Any time you or Mike or CJ or anybody else want to actually discuss what I've said about this...

Or, alternatively, you can all continue with "you've never tried it", "you probably can't play a lick", "you must carry around a slide rule", etc., etc. - all of which translate to "I don't really know what you're talking about".

[crickets]

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

Any time you or Mike or CJ or anybody else want to actually discuss what I've said about this...

Or, alternatively, you can all continue with "you've never tried it", "you probably can't play a lick", "you must carry around a slide rule", etc., etc. - all of which translate to "I don't really know what you're talking about".

[crickets]

pj
chgo

Don't scientist come up with theories and then do experiments to prove and disprove things. How is it you can make judgments without putting the work in?