Tonight, 8:00 PM, 8/4/20 - Sigel v. Varner, 2000 14.1 US Open

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Silver Member
HI folks, heads up that tonight's "Tuesday Treasures" from Accu Stats is Sigel v. Varner at the 2000 14.1 US Open.

Link available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipEDKnHY_1w

After the stream, the video stays up on YouTube for viewing, for free.

These are really fun - Pat will live stream the match and you have the chance to chat with the other viewers. Pat asks and answers questions the whole time, and gives a heads up on what's in store.

For example, Pat mentioned during one stream that he's thinking about a "Senior Event" toward the end of the year. How cool is that? Think about seeing Rempe, Sigel, Varner, Hopkins, Strickland, Reyes etc. in an Accu-Stats all around format. I'd pay $$$ to be involved in some way. Past their primes, sure, but I know most of us have a soft spot for these guys.

Imagine if Pat coaxed Jean Balukas to put together a cue for one more event and she whooped everyone?

Hopefully COVID doesn't postpone those plans, but it's great that Pat has this on his radar as a possibility.

Anyway, hope to see some of you there tonight.
 
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kaznj

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That would be fun to watch. I was just watching Earl practice. Ran the entire rack in order while talking to me.
I watched the miz vs toby sweet match the other day. I could not believe toby missed that shot at the end.
I think it would be fun to see seniors who are still active. Earl, Ralph Souquet, Ralph Eckert, Archer over 50,I think Rodney Morris is close , Pat Flemmning, is Tony Robles 50?
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
The play was entertaining, and watching these legends is always a treat.

The commentary was pretty bad. Billy is a legend at commentating both rotation games and one pocket, but his straight pool commentating was largely lacking in insight and his partner added very little, dwelling chiefly on the patently obvious. Little to no game theory was discussed, no pattern play principles, little about attack angles or problem solving principles. Back then, Dan Diliberto was, by far, the best straight pool commentator.

I recall being there at this event, held at the Roseland Ballroom, which was within a five minute walk of my apartment on W54th Street in Manhattan. Staged by Blatt Billiards, it was a very fan-friendly affair.

Sigel ran a 280 on the practice table at the beginning of that week, but it didn't translate into a strong tournament.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That would be fun to watch. I was just watching Earl practice. Ran the entire rack in order while talking to me.
I watched the miz vs toby sweet match the other day. I could not believe toby missed that shot at the end.
I think it would be fun to see seniors who are still active. Earl, Ralph Souquet, Ralph Eckert, Archer over 50,I think Rodney Morris is close , Pat Flemmning, is Tony Robles 50?

Not sure how much Sigel is playing these days but my money would be on him or Ortmann if they showed up and have been playing.

Of the players you listed Archer would be tough to beat. Straight shooter and understands the game.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the 2000 U S. Open Program- I was there and I have it in original condition. Also Here is the player list for the men that was an insert to the program. Great front cover mural- I wonder if Blatt Billiards has the original painting? The venue was fan friendly in that it was possible to get up close and personal to all the action in the prelim room and the contest room. Roseland Ballroom was sort of a shabby place by 2000, so it was not a true 14.1 Formal atmosphere like the prior Roosevelt hotel setting in the '92 14.1 Open. The 93 Open was at a lesser hotel near MSG - Hotel Pennsylvania at the time.

Interesting from the player list that both Mika Immonen and John Schmidt had to win qualifiers to get into the event. Chinese Taipei had both a man and woman entry into the event. The woman won for the second US Open in a row. Ralph Souquet won for the men in 2000-

The programs for the 89,92,93 and 2000 U S Opens were Really very nice- this one is 32 pages of high gloss beautiful workmanship - all about the players and the history.The 93 program was dedicated to Mosconi and is a real collector's item- I have them all, glad I was there!
 

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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
That would be fun to watch. I was just watching Earl practice. Ran the entire rack in order while talking to me.
I watched the miz vs toby sweet match the other day. I could not believe toby missed that shot at the end.
I think it would be fun to see seniors who are still active. Earl, Ralph Souquet, Ralph Eckert, Archer over 50,I think Rodney Morris is close , Pat Flemmning, is Tony Robles 50?

Former US Open Champion Bobby Hunter is another old-timer who'd surely have to be reckoned with. The best all-around player of the old-timers might just be Ike Runnels of Chicago, though I don't know if he plays straight pool. From what I hear, Ray Martin still hits them pretty sporty, too. Dan Barouty is also formidable.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Silver Member
... Little to no game theory was discussed, no pattern play principles, little about attack angles or problem solving principles. ...
E.g. When Sigel was at 32 and shooting the 7 ball there were 9 balls on the table, no two touching, and he moved 7 of them. He could have drawn lightly into the 6 and moved it into (right handed) break position and been certain of position on a ball. None of the remaining balls needed to be moved. Maybe Sigel felt he couldn't play close, finesse position on that cloth/table but the old timers would have made fun of him for rolling the dice unnecessarily.
 
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Texas Carom Club

play 1cushion & balkline
Silver Member
The commentary was pretty bad. Billy is a legend at commentating both rotation games and one pocket, but his straight pool commentating was largely lacking in insight and his partner added very little, dwelling chiefly on the patently obvious. Little to no game theory was discussed, no pattern play principles, little about attack angles or problem solving principles. Back then, Dan Diliberto was, by far, the best straight pool commentator..

i felt the opposite, the player with billy was of great insight where billy was lacking, the little that he was


a very entertaining video to see the legends play a high level like that
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
i felt the opposite, the player with billy was of great insight where billy was lacking, the little that he was


a very entertaining video to see the legends play a high level like that

If you enjoyed Jose Garcia's commentary, great, but for me, that's a guy with a huge amount of technical knowledge of 14.1 who did almost nothing to share it during that match.
 

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Silver Member
One of many differences between a great player and me is I end up like this frequently and frequently it doesn't end well. Varner slams into the corner ball and opens the rack.

https://youtu.be/ipEDKnHY_1w?t=3179

52:59

To be fair to you, this cloth looked like it was all of an hour old. The balls separated very well and the speed of the cloth looked like glass. Nick did indeed hit the shot perfectly - but I have a hunch that if the cloth were just a little more worn in and the balls just a little dirtier, that rack would have looked different.
 
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mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of many differences between a great player and me is I end up like this frequently and frequently it doesn't end well. Varner slams into the corner ball and opens the rack.

https://youtu.be/ipEDKnHY_1w?t=3179

52:59

yes, I know how you feel. I rarely get that kind of spread on that kind of break shot. A lot of the action the very best get off their break shots has more to do with their stroke purity than one would imagine. That goes for most primary and secondary break shots in 14.1.

Balls, rails, cloth, and climate being equal- I find that it is the "completeness of stroke" that makes the bigger difference in how that cue ball reacts with the stack. either with follow or draw!

I think that many of the less than top 14.1 players have a slight hitch in their break shots out of concern for the result instead of just releasing their very best strokes on those break shots. The mind has to let the body release that break stroke just like you KNOW the object ball is going in the hole.

One method that has helped me a lot on primary and secondary break shots is to make sure that I do not "see" anything happening with the stack until I see that object ball go into the hole. This keeps me "on" the shot longer and "off' the break result- helps keep the stroke pure.
 
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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I think that many of the less than top 14.1 players have a slight hitch in their break shots out of concern for the result instead of just releasing their very best strokes on those break shots. The mind has to let the body release that break stroke just like you KNOW the object ball is going in the hole.

Excellent post! On top of your given reason. I feel that, all too often, the amateur doesn't sufficiently plan the break shot before striking the cue ball.

Attack angle, stroke and speed must be properly planned on shots that break clusters for optimal results. I feel amateurs, far too often, are still working some of this stuff out while already over the cue ball. As the expert instructors often stress, players must "make all their decisions standing" to be successful.

The uncertainty that results from incomplete planning, just as you suggest, can cause a less than ideal stroke on a shot that, more than any other, requires an ideal stroke. As you suggest, it's partly psychological, because it's hard to deliver your best stroke when you're still in conceptualization mode over the cue ball.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of many differences between a great player and me is I end up like this frequently and frequently it doesn't end well. Varner slams into the corner ball and opens the rack.


52:59
Just happened on this video again due to a thumbs up I received- Nick Varner's stroke is so pure in this video- his final drawback and cue release on each shot is just so, so even and smooth- with a flow that is so ideal for the combination of ball pocketing and cue ball position/speed control. In seeing this video again, I realize all over again how the total evenness of Nick's game in every respect made him a really, really tough guy to beat even among the very best of his time. Nick epitomizes the idea of quiet mind/quiet body sports performance.
 
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